Do Northern Strain Lm Eat Smaller Forage?

[gobig]

Ok, this is what I mean when I say we tend to think one dimensionally. Pictured are some different baits that vary drastically in size. But when looked at from different angles they are not really that different in apparent size. I believe this is the reason a 1lb fish will bite an 8in bait. I think it also makes for a good argument that northerns will eat bigger baits.

This is a 9.5in Baitsmith Mag trout and a 5in Mattlures ultimate gill.

In this picture from the side the Baitsmith looks huge compared to the gill.

Now imagine both baits are swimming directly towards you. How big is that 9in bait now? Is it possible that a 2lber could try to eat a 9.5in bait from this perspective?

What about a fish feeding up or down? I know almost everyone here uses or has used senkos at one time or another. This is the profile of a 8in Hud next to a 7in senko.

Here is a look at a 5.5in shell cracker compared to a regular spook. From this perspective the shell cracker looks huge compared to the spook.

Both of these are top water baits, here is more or less what they look like from the fishes perspective.

[slonezp]

gobig, You took all the fun out of this thread by making too much sense.

[deep]

Excellent demonstration gobig; although the concept isn't new to readers of BBZ.

I thought about something else too. Bass don't rely only on vision, and a 8" hudd definitely moves way more water than a big senko. Maybe we need to take that into account as well. On that note, what do you think of a hudd 68 vs the regular 8 incher? Just trying to get a discussion going.

I don't fish the 8 incher a lot, mostly due to it getting snagged when I rig it BB style (the lakes I fish are very different from your California lakes). A member at SBN showed me a more snagless way to rig it, and I'm looking forward to try that out.

[gobig]

Excellent demonstration gobig; although the concept isn't new to readers of BBZ.

This idea definitely did not originate from me. As mentioned its a BBZ concept. I do not know if the idea originated from Bill Siemantle or someone before him, it really doesn't matter. What matters is awareness, how does this concept apply to different situations? Everything I have learned from Bill is logical, but you are required to think.

I thought about something else too. Bass don't rely only on vision, and a 8" hudd definitely moves way more water than a big senko. Maybe we need to take that into account as well.

Everything needs to be taken into account. Water displacement is definitely a factor. The more information we can process the better.

what do you think of a hudd 68 vs the regular 8 incher?

I have not spent enough time with the 68 yet. I did pick up 4 on the last run though.

I don't fish the 8 incher a lot, mostly due to it getting snagged when I rig it BB style

Are you rigging the bait exactly like Butch says? hook brand, size and all? and if you are what are you snagging on? Weeds? wood? rocks?

[deep]

Are you rigging the bait exactly like Butch says? hook brand, size and all? and if you are what are you snagging on? Weeds? wood? rocks?

Chunk rocks; fishing from the shore.

The new ideas I got seem promising though. It's similar to the BB rig, except that it uses a smaller gammie instead of the VMC, and puts it further back. Also, I was told to use the ROF5, not the 12 or 16. Let's see how it goes.

[WRB]

Good thread and excellent lure size presentation.

Lure profile isn't always 2 dimensional, it's 3 dimensional and moving. The side profile with swimbaits is important due to the slower swimming motion allows the bass to look it over from below or trailing from behind or attacking from the side.

Swimbaits that are heavy and sink would difficult to swim uphill from shore. The lighter the weight and slower it sinks will keep the swimbait suspended and out of the rocks.

Butch's rig uses VMC's because they bend easily, you can use a small torch and heat a Gammy or Owner to make the same bend.

From shore I would suggest using a giant worm 12" to 16"

with a light weight and work it uphill, can be just as effective as a swimbait. You can also work a wake bait like a Plunker or a surface swimbait effectively from the bank.

Tom

PS; this years BAT is the 19-20 Nov with lots of new toys .

[Big Fish Rice]

Excellent thread and one that I will continue to watch closely.

I caught many respectable fish on River2Sea's S-Waver this year, which is a 6" swimbait. Most of the fish were in the 2-3lb range, while on many occasions, I had fished the 8" Huddleston without results.

I completely agree with a bass being able to eat 1/3 of its weight in a single meal because I witnessed it many times this past year. What's most interesting to me is that I have caught several 5-7lb fish on jigs, that also had a look at the 8" Huddleston.

The biggest difference is that most of the time, my jigs were "soaking". Left to die for several minutes, while I usually kept the Hudd moving at a slow pace.

Maybe the Hudd needs to sit in place for a bit. You guys have me thinking about some new presentations for next season.

[Hooligan]

Gobig- Well thought, but flawed in terms of apparent size. The water displacement is going to be dramatically different for one versus the other. It simply isn't a valid point of reference as to the size indication and feeding.

[gobig]

Gobig- Well thought, but flawed in terms of apparent size. The water displacement is going to be dramatically different for one versus the other. It simply isn't a valid point of reference as to the size indication and feeding.

You have to think in broader terms. For one I don't think fish have the ability to reason. Water displacement is part of what gets their attention and they respond visually. Your right in the sense that a 12in trout is going to displace more water than a single 3in shad. But Shad tend to swim in schools. so how many shad does it take to displace more water than a single trout? Is is possible to have larger amounts of water displacement associated to smaller bait? The 8in Tiger tube was designed to imitate a small pod of darting shad.

Maybe the Hudd needs to sit in place for a bit. You guys have me thinking about some new presentations for next season.

IMO your headed in the right direction. Your swimbait just like your jig is a tool, not a technique. All of the techniques (swimming, burning, stroking, dragging etc...) you apply to jigs can be applied to swimbaits. I think in most situations swimbaits are fished way to fast by people. You can fish the right swimbaits stupid slow.

The new ideas I got seem promising though. It's similar to the BB rig, except that it uses a smaller gammie instead of the VMC, and puts it further back. Also, I was told to use the ROF5, not the 12 or 16. Let's see how it goes.

Going to an ROF5 will make a big difference. The bait tends to glide more where the ROF12 tends to dig in. We fish a alot of chunck rock out here. The only place we get a ton of weeds in NorCal is the Delta and Clearlake. Even in those places you end up fishing alot of rock.

I would try and stick with Butches rig to the T if you can. I am sure you saw his post on the other site. There is more to why he uses the VMC then being able to bend the hook. It has to do with the way the hook lays flat on the bait, he feels it looks more natural. He also says the Owner has to much of an inward bend near the hook point which accounts for missed fish because of the way the hook sits on the bait with his rigging style. He claims the Gamakatsu has to small of a barb that allows fish to throw the bait easier.

[NBR]

I agree that thet eat what ever they can get in their mouths. Years ago I was at a lodge on I think the Chippawa Flowage in WI. They had a fish tank in the bar that held about a 10" bass, a shiner about 5" and a smaller catfish. We were there for a few days and on the second day the shiner disappeared. It was easily found since it stuck out of the basses mouth from in from of the shiners vent. The owner said the bass would digest the shiner and then in a few days start to go after the little cat fish.

Many of us have seen pictures of northern pike swallowed by a bigger one. IMHO fish eat what they capture soometimes to their detriment. How many times have you caught a dink on a large crankbait.

[BrianSnat]

I agree that thet eat what ever they can get in their mouths.

And then some. A few weeks ago I caught a 3" smallmouth on a 4 1/2" crankbait.

[Randall]

Biggest difference between the two strains is how active and agressive they are. Florida Strain fish tend to be a lazy energy conserving fish while Northern Strain Fish tend to be more aggressive and active. Bass aren't smart but conditioned to do certain things because of thier enviroment and genitic makeup. This includes being conditioned to eat certain size forage based on the enviroment and genetic makeup. Northern strain fish do not tend to be as efficient from my observation and that may have something to do with prefered forage size from fish that survive to be a larger fish. Try to eat too many large meals with failure means a short life and low survival rates for those fish. Florida Strain fish conserve more energy and feed more at optimum times so they could be more efficent so they could survive better on larger forage.

I get to fish different lakes with many different types of forage and strains of bass and have developed my own theorys as to bait selection for each lake. For example I fish a lake that has herring, shad and trout and northern strain fish to the best of my knowledge. The fish feed on all three types of forage but the diet of the fish changes season to season. Right now they are stocking trout and the diet of the bigger fish consists of mostly trout in the larger sizes that are being stocked. If I were to go there I would use baits like a huddleston that swim like a trout in a eight inch size. Now if I were to go to the same lake in late spring/early summer during the herring and shad spawn I would use smaller baits in the six inch size because those fish including the big ones will be feeding more on herring and shad.

For another example I have noticed in lakes with no shad but stocked trout the prefered forage size is larger and the fish feed on the trout more with the other main option for forage being bluegill. Add shad to the equation and the fish start to prefer shad more often over the larger trout.

Something else to think about is survival rates that are related to forage size. I know a lake in NC stocked with trout that has nothing but northern strain bass. Bass there have a very poor survival rate from the spawn in part due to the average forage size and poor fertility of the lake in general. The lake also has a lot of huge bluegills but very few small ones. If I go there I use nothing but 8-10 inch swimbaits and may only catch one fish every few trips but it will be 8-10lbs in most cases.

So, I don't think you can choose bait size based just on the size or strtain of fish you want to catch. It takes doing some homework and figuring out which bait size and type of bait the fish are targeting. Sometimes it's just more efficient for a fish to eat more four to six inch fish rather then one eight to ten inch fish. Sometimes one eight to ten inch fish is more efficient.