"tip Heavy"

[esoxangler]

I have been seeing this term used in a few posts and am curious about it. What exactly does one mean when they say the rod is tip heavy? Is it something that can only be determined by feel when you pick up a rod? Is it something that can be measured in some way? What are the advantages or disadvantages of a rod that is tip heavy? Thanks for your replies in advance.

Esox

[BrianinMD]

Tip heavy is when you are holding the rod as you normally would use it and feeling the tip pulling down as if a weight is hanging off of it. Normally "balanced" rods have a balance point right in front of the reel seat or somewheres close depending what each person prefers. A tip heavy rod will have a balance point several inches in front of that.

There is no advantages, the disadvantage is a rod which loses some sensitivity and annoyances after long use. The weights of rods are only ounces but you will notice a big different between tip heavy and balanced rods.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

Balance of a rod is a personal preference with no right or wrong. The rod should be handled with the intened reel mounted. When held in a loose grasp, the tip may lean forward (tip heavy),lean up (butt heavy) or balance (neutral). Neutral or "Balanced" feel is preferred by many especially for a jig or plastics rod that is fished with the tip in the air. My personal preference is to not add weight to any rod unless absolutely necessary.

[tracker01]

If you are using your "tip heavy" rod for "tip down" presentations, tip heavy is not a big factor. Now, if you are using your "tip heavy" rod for "tip up" presentations, that's a different story. The fatigue factor starts to creep in as the day goes on .

[BrASSmonkey]

As stated, for many, this is a personal preference issue. Some do not notice tip-heaviness while others do. I agree it affects tip up presentations more severely than tip down presentations. Nevertheless, I still notice it on tip down presentations, and prefer the balanced feel myself. i have added weight to counterbalance rods before, and have been happy with the results. Again, this is personal preference. Some value absolute weight of the combo over balance.

[Midnight Splash2]

I have a 7 MF Avid on the way to pair with a Pflueger Patriarch baitcaster. This rod will be used for light soft plastics. If it is tip heavy Im going to try to balance the rod out by adding weights to the butt. I was reading a how to on this yesterday and it seems easy enough.

http://www.rod-crafting.com/resource/articles/balancing.html

[baluga]

Tip heavy rod/setup will always get you fatigue after long hours of casting and retrieving lures. Unless you are soaking bait and put them on rod holders

[islandbass]

This is a great subject and I have heard these points and agree with them.

DVT,

I hear you on not adding weight to the rod, but which case, if any, would be one where we would justify the addition of adding weight? Gary Loomis has said that extra weight is a detriment to sensitivity so how can we balance that tip heavy set up without adding weight other than moving the position of the reel's location on the rod? As someone who suffers occasionally from analysis paralysis, thinking about this sometimes give me a headache.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

When building a rod, if at all possible I have the reel on hand and your right, I-ll move it forward and back to get the desired result. If this means that the butt would be unacceptably long (or short)I'll adjust accordingly. Since this is largely a preference issue, I'll add just enough weight to the very butt end to achieve the feel the customer wants.

As a personal example, I'm not really tall, 5'9" so I prefer a butt length of about 9". If I were to do a 7'10" flipping stick for myself, the extra length and short butt might result in a tip heavier than I want so I'll add just enough weight to get a feel I can live with, which probably will still not balance ona fulcrum at the reel.

Example 2 - I'm building a 6'3" drop shot/finesse rod with carbon Tennessee handle, micro guides and will get a 2500 Ci4 with braid. My goal being the lightest most sensitive rod I can get. No way will I add any weight to this build.

[Midnight Splash2]

DVT

In your experience, what are the disadvantages of adding weight to the butt of a bait casting rod other than most likely voiding the warranty?

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

Weight added weight anywhere on the blank has a negative affect on sensitivity. With that said, a small amount of weight on the butt area would have the least affect and admittedly probably less that human hands could detect. Weight can be added with after market kits without affecting warranties. They're just a cap filled with washers or quarters slid over the butt cap. A chair leg tip from the hardware store will work for this. On a new build I'll use a little lead tape under the grip or epoxied into the blank end.

[Midnight Splash2]

I have read that you will lose sensitivity with a tip heavy worm rod because of the energy it will take to keep the rod in the upright position. Now with a added butt weighted rod the actual rod will lose some sensitivity. But adding butt weight to a tip heavy rod will let you feel more sensitivity than not adding weight to a tip heavy rod right?

[.ghoti.]

Some thoughts on “balance”.

Since there is no way to counter-balance the torque of a moving bait, such as a crankbait or spinnerbait, let’s concentrate on bottom contact baits.

First, how do we describe a balanced combo? Most would say that a rod / reel combo is balanced if, when you hold it as you would when fishing, the tip is not being pulled down.

What we’re talking about is torque. In this case, the rotational force we feel at our wrists. The most common scale we use is foot-pounds or pound-feet. Take your pick. The result is the product of the two terms. A one pound weight, two feet from the center of rotation produces the same result as a two pound weight, one foot out.

So, where’s the center? Depends entirely on how you hold your setup. When I’m fishing a baitcast rig, all four fingers are in front of the trigger. I’ve fished several times with Kent, and he holds his rods completely different. Only his forefinger is in front of the trigger. Who is doing it correctly? I am, of course. And so is he, of course. We are going to experience different balancing torques from the same rod / reel combo. Like the disclaimers all say, your results may vary.

Let’s run some numbers, and since I’m a simple-minded sort of guy, let’s use some simple numbers to start with.

First determine where the rod balances naturally. That will be our center of rotation. Now suppose we’ve tied a piece of line onto the tiptop guide and tied a weight to the line.

We’re working in foot-pounds so let’s use 4oz, or 0.25 pounds.

And let’s say we have 8 feet of rod in front of our center of rotation.

That gives us 2 foot-pounds of torque.

Keeping in mind the way gravity works, the result is valid when the rod is parallel with the ground.

How do almost all of hold the rod when fishing jigs or plastics? With the rod pointed up, not parallel with the ground, or with the water surface, is you prefer.

Keeping the weight the same, as we move the rod from parallel with the ground towards perpendicular, what is happening? The distance from center is becoming less. The nearer to perpendicular the rod is, the closer to zero the distance becomes.

If the rod is pointing straight up, the distance from center is zero and there is no torque. There is however, the weight of the rod, plus the weight of the sinker being pulled straight down.

Think about that for a minute, and then tell yourself again how adding weight to balance a rod makes it “feel” lighter.

Let’s look at some “real” numbers. My most “out of balance” combo is a 7’6” XH Duckett swimbait rod. With the reel mounted, and me loosely holding it where I hold this one to fish, I measured about 4 ounces of force at the tip.

I also measured right at 6.25 feet of rod from the center of my hand/wrist.

That gives a torque of 1.5625 ft-lbs when the rod is parallel with the ground.

I hold my rods about 10 degrees off perpendicular for some reason. That’s just where it feels right to me. I’ve measured this, as best I can, from some pictures.

At 6.25 feet, 10 degrees puts the rod tip about 1.1 feet from center. This gives a torque of 0.275 ft-lbs. Doing the calculations, I’d have to add 3.4 ounces of weight to the butt end of the rod to make it “balance”, in the sense that most people use the term.

This rod only weighs a little over four ounces. Let me see, do I want to turn a nice 4 ounce rod into a 7.4 ounce pig of a rod? Or do I think my wrist can stand the incredible strain of 0.275 ft-lbs of torque?

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

.ghoti.

I couldn't agree more. Very well stated points with supporting data.

[northern basser]

I have to agree with ghoti also. I became caught up in the whole "balance" deal myself so I added some weight to the butt of my xc724 lamiglas senko rod. At first I was impressed with my work cause the 7'2" lami was a little tip heavy and the weight balanced it out better. Then the more I handled it I wasn't so impressed with what I had done. The weight I added was probably = to half the weight of the rod, now making my rods total weight signifigantly higher.

Then another thing dawned on me. I can't ever remember my arms or wrists ever getting "fatigued", even after a whole day of chucking lures. My legs, maybe, from standing in a boat all day, but not my arms. The long winter was giving me too much time to over think and analize everything.

So, I took out the added weight in the rod and bass opener in MN is a week away. Time to quit thinking and start fishing.

Any rod under 5oz. is a pretty light rod IMO, so how tip heavy could a 3.5oz. rod possibly be?

[senile1]

Gary, that is an excellent explanation and analysis. I've always stated that the tiny amount of weight involved in a tip-heavy rod doesn't bother me and you have explained perfectly the reasons why.

[Dwight Hottle]

This thread would make a great sticky because of the detailed analysis contributed by several members. Job well done.

[islandbass]

DVT,

Thanks for that great information. Much appreciated.

[BobP]

If you're going to use the rod for crankbaits, spinnerbaits, jerkbaits, or other moving presentations, all rods will be tip heavy due to the resistance of the lures being retrieved. Some tip-heaviness can actually be good. It helps casting and can help when jerking jerkbaits. Virtually all fiberglass crankbait rods are tip-heavy due to the material used in the blank. It's not a detriment because the rod will be tip-heavy anyway during the retrieve.

The case where tip-heaviness really matters, IMO, is for "still presentations" like jigs, worms, C-rigs. It is virtually impossible to find any rod at any price that is not somewhat tip-heavy and the longer the rod, the more tip-heavy it will be. So we're really talking about the degree of tip-heaviness rather than its absence. Clamp on your reel. Hold the rig the way you do when fishing a worm. The more weight you feel out front, the more tip-heavy the rod is. It's like picking up a brick and holding it at arm's length. Easy enough to do, right? Do it for an hour and see how you feel. It runs against the grain to take a $250 rod blank that weighs 2 oz and stuff lead in the butt to balance it. You paid big bucks just to get a light sensitive rod blank. And maybe it does reduce ability of the rod blank to transmit vibration (i.e. its laboratory sensitivity). If Gary Loomis says so, I believe him. But there is a difference between laboratory sensitivity and on-the-water sensitivity. What you really want is a rod that allows to sense bites all day long. Somewhat like the "brick" example, holding a worm rod that is tip heavy by an ounce all day long will cause the fine muscles in your hand to fatigue - and that reduces your ability to sense bites. So I wouldn't hesitate to butt weight a worm rod, and especially a moderate cost worm rod which I would expect to be more tip heavy anyway. I agonize over butt weighting a St Croix LE. Usually not - at least until I've used it awhile and come to my senses.

[RoLo]

Excellent read Gary

In overview, I suppose we could say that some guys prefer Top-Heavy, others prefer Butt-Heavy

Roger