Meanmouth???

[Deuceu72]

Question, and this is NOT to discredit anyone..........On the contrary, I was sooooooo impressed with FishChris's HUGE smallie that I showed it to a few fishing buddies.....well, one of the guys in my bass club says that the fish isnt a smallie, but a MEANMOUTH bass, which I guess is a cross between a smallmouth and a spotted bass........Is this possible? I cant say as I know what a meanmouth looks like!

[Matt Fly]

We have a cross in Texas in the Hill country that we call "mean mouth".      A cross between the spotted bass and a quadalupe bass.       If you ever catch one, you'll know why they are called a "mean mouth"

Can be described like a small mouth, pound for pound, a fighter till the end.    I have never seen any in Texas close to what Fish Chris posted.

Good question for Mr. Hannon possibley.

Matt

[DeltaD]

I have seen and caught meanmouth or mulies, I don't believe that's what this fish is. For one there are no documented catches of spotted bass in lake pardee, it is known for brute smallmouth, suprising largemouth and then the trout, kokes and some amazing brown trout from time to time. The size of smallbouth in pardee is well known to some who fish there, personally my largest there is 3.75 lbs a respectable fish, but not a trophy, smallmouth come out of there every year in the 8lb range, so really the only thing we can go on are the markings and while they're not typical, they really aren't that atypical either. The largest meanmouth I've hear is 4lbs or so. So just maybe in the absence of spotted bass what we're looking at is one fat smallie caught by two different individuals a short time apart.

[FIN-S-R]

Meanmouth in oklahoma over 8 lbs....but that pig from cali seems to be all brown fish. The big ones (meanmouths) here in oklahoma have come from Veterans lake (small clear mountain lake), and texoma. lots of smaller ones in any lake that has spots and smallies, murray is loaded up with them, and they act more like white bass or stripers alot of the time, they just relate to structure a little more than the all out transient predator types.

[MarVaBC]

I just did a yahoo search on meanmouths....they look exactly like those ones that fishchris was catching.  I'm not saying that his fish were definitly them, but they look a lot like them.  Maybe the ones in that lake are hybridized with something else?  However aside from those huge pigs that he caught....some of the smaller (5-6 lb   )ones did look like true smallies in shape and coloration.

[Fish Chris]

Here's a post copied and pasted from a Nor Cal Bass forum:

>> Oh and about the whole "hybrid" issue;

I'm really curious about this myself. Most of us have seen and / or caught, some of these weird "intermediate looking" bass, at one place or another.

But several things come to mind. First, taken from one of the articles that NaCl posted the link to (thank you Dean) > An "odd" looking smallmouth or spotted bass may not necessarily be a hybrid. < And some of the biologists that I have discussed this with, stress the very same thing.

Second, you have to figure that any lake which is producing giant Smallies like Pardee has been, has obviously got to have some very special stuff going on. I mean, lets face it, Smallmouths of this size are just flat out "not normal". So, why should anyone be so surprised if the coloration of some of these fish was not exactly normal either ?

Third, Smallmouths and Spotted bass will interbreed quite a bit more readily than Smallmouths and Largemouths, however the fact is, Spotted bass are unheard of from Pardee. How could it be that nearly everyone who fishes Pardee with any regularity has caught a Spotted Bass X Smallie hybrid, while no one has caught a straight up Spotted Bass ? So what, do they come over from Camanche just to spawn, then go back home when their finished ? {what happens in Pardee, stays in Pardee :-}

All of this said, I'm am slowly beginning to believe that "even" the ones that look like straight up hybrids, might in fact be pure, but rather unusual, Smallmouths, with booming, but unnatural food supplies, in the form of Kokanee trout. <<

So anyway..... Oh, and just to reiterate; While most people will compare one fish to another, judging by coloration first, most trained fisheries biologists will quickly tell you that color is often so changeable / variable, that this is usually the "last" criteria for which a species determination will be judged upon.

So, yes, I'm curious, but strongly leaning towards pure Smallmouth.

Peace,

Fish

[FIN-S-R]

Here is the 8+ from veterans lake in south central oklahoma.

[justfishin]

I had the thoughts of a hybrid situation at first Chris. The fish you caught were unique. I came to the conclusion that these fish are genuine smallmouth. I agree that you just have a unique situation going on in  the lake you are catching these fish. I am just sorrow I cannot be on the lake as well,lol. You go get them. I think you are doing a great job and feel that what you are doing is not luck but, hard work and research that has put these fish in your boat. I will say this. If you put a #12 in the boat, I am selling my home and moving,lol. Good luck and good job.---Jim

[roadwarrior]

Although the smallmouth/ spotted bass hybrid is commonly referred to as a meanmouth, technically a meanmouth is a smallmouth/ largemouth hybrid:

http://www.fishin.com/articles/meanmouth.htm

However, there is NO QUESTION in my mind that the fish we are discussing is a pure smallmouth bass. I have already posted a picture of David Hays' World Record (mounted), the smallmouth Fish Chris caught has the same basic shape (extended belly). Here is another picture:

http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/outdoors/fishing/articles/smallmouth-world-record-reinstated.html

[Dan:]

None of the reasoning anyone has done is conclusive whatsoever. Who cares if largemouths and smallmouths "usually" don't breed together. If it is possible for them to make offspring, then who is to say that these fish aren't a hybrid. If you look at the fish, it has characteristics of both species. To me, that would suggest there is a chance it IS a hybrid. Also, RW, the picture you supplied is in black and white. It has the distended belly (characteristic of a largemouth) but we can't see any of its coloration. Is it possible that the WR smallmouth might have been a hybrid as well?

I'm not trying to say anything about your fish, Chris. I'm extremely happy that you caught such an amazing fish and hybrid or smallie, it's still a GIANT! I'm honored to have such a big fish expert on the same forum. That being said, I think it is most likely a smallmouth. I just want to make sure that everyone realizes that NOTHING can be ruled out. Wildlife departments should do some tests to see if maybe they need to add another classification in the record books for "meanmouths."

Why don't they just test them. Something as simple as removing a scale could probably determine the species. That way, you can tell if there are hybrids in the lake and if so, what they tend to look like.

Again, I mean absolutely no harm, bad feelings, or ill will by my comments. My main point is just that we just can't be certain without testing the fish and it would presumptuous to act otherwise.

[roadwarrior]

Wrong.

The World Record Smallmouth is perhaps the most extensively investigated record in the history of freshwater fishing. What sets this record apart, however, is that the ACTUAL fish is still available for inspection or additional investigation. David Hayes has the fish! It is, WITHOUT QUESTION, a smallmouth bass. That is an ABSOLUTE fact. Furthermore, analysis of the scales indicate it was thirteen years old which is probably why it was able to attain such remarkable size. (Smallmouth in northern waters can live much longer, but southern fish rarely reach ten years of age).

Here is another picture of Mr. Hayes, 50 years older, taken by the IGFA when his record was re-certified:

http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/fishing/bass/article/0,19912,1179686,00.html

This article reviews the entire story.

[Dan:]

Wrong.

The World Record Smallmouth is perhaps the most extensively investigated record in the history of freshwater fishing. What sets this record apart, however, is that the ACTUAL fish is still available for inspection or additional investigation. David Hayes has the fish! It is, WITHOUT QUESTION, a smallmouth bass. That is an ABSOLUTE fact. Furthermore, analysis of the scales indicate it was thirteen years old which is probably why it was able to attain such remarkable size. (Smallmouth in norther waters can live much longer, but southern fish rarely reach ten years of age).

Here is another picture of Mr. Hayes, 50 years older, taken by the IGFA when his record was re-certified:

http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/fishing/bass/article/0,19912,1179686,00.html

This article reviews the entire story.

Alright, but that still doesn't prove anything definite about these other possible hybrids...

[squid]

I DON'T CARE........IT'S A FAT BASS AND I WANT ONE....LOL  TO TRUELY FIND OUT WHAT IT IS...GO AND CATCH IT...MIGHT HAVE TO KILL IT(NOT A GOOD THING MIND YOU)....THEN STUDY IT.  

BUT FOR NOW...LET'S ENJOY THE FACT THAT THAT IS ONE BIG, FAT, LARGE, HUGE SMALLEY.

[HPBB]

its a conspiracy I tell you, a conspiracy!!!! ;D ;D ;D

[flyhatch]

its a conspiracy I tell you, a conspiracy!!!! ;D ;D ;D

hmmm...was that fish caught near a grassy knoll?

[RecMar8541]

I am going to the book school supository today to do the research lol.

Ok I tend to be blunt so forgive me.

I dont give a fiddlers d**n what kind of fish that is, its a monster!!  Even IF it is a hybrid, and is only part smallie, it is still monsterous.

Chris you are the man keep up the good work!!!!

Recon

[ABA CAST CHAMP 2006]

Dominion Dan is right about much of what has been posted as being complete hearsay as to recognizing the species of fish that we're talking about.  No offense intended, but there is no "simple" identification such as "removing a scale."  One can look at a fish and say that it is one species or another, but everyone should make use a dichotomous key from published material such as The Fishes of Tennessee by Etnier and Starnes in order to determine exactly what species of fish they're dealing with.  So I argue that any posts furthermore about a questionable species be left to the replies which have made use of scientific observation rather than replies based on experience and belief.  At least the arguments presented would be legitimate instead of being completely biased and the bickering might slow down a little bit .

[TheNextMikeIke]

I was just wondering...if your fishing in a torny and you catch a mean mouth bass...can you still weigh it in????