Triggers for pre-spawn/spawn

[Catt]

Water temperature will not change until daylight hours start to lengthen

“I think water temperatures are just coincidental; merely something we can easily monitor but is a coincidental symptom rather than the actual cause.” I learned that from Roger (Rolo) who has a better way with words than I do.

[Paul Roberts]

Water temperature will not change until daylight hours start to lengthen

“I think water temperatures are just coincidental; merely something we can easily monitor but is a coincidental symptom rather than the actual cause.” I learned that from Roger (Rolo) who has a better way with words than I do.

True, it is direct sunlight that heats. And "seasons" are most basically about "angle of incidence".

Teasing out each individual climatic/environmental influence must be done in the laboratory, and there is an enormous body of literature on that, if anyone is considering a new career. Heat energy (measured by temperature) has significant direct biological effects. Temperature (trends esp) are worth monitoring. That of all things gives me the most (but certainly not all) information on seasonal trends in fish behavior. In part bc it uses a consistent instrument to measure with. But also bc the biological effects of temperature on aquatic creatures (and other ectotherms) is powerful. And for the day to day, hour to hour resolution we need as anglers, it's the best thing I can use that best appears to coincide with behavior.

Its effect is not entirely static though, (plug in A and get B ) but dynamic. It's a "fluid" world (in military jargon), and you must be able to fly by the seat of your pants. That said, a thermometer, used correctly can be a powerful tool for keeping a bead on fish behavior. Running around with a surface temperature gauge only "scratches the surface".

[Blue Streak]

One of the things we watch for in this area in the spring is when the night temperatures begin to stay warm. This is when the water starts to warm more rapidly and brings on that wonderful period of pre spawn and spawn fishing.

I think Paul's comment about this whole thing being a combination of events and conditions and not any one in particular may be the most accurate remark.

There may be a big difference in the southern lakes where the water stays warm enough to fish year round as opposed to the northern lakes where they freeze over with several inches of ice for an extended period. It seems that we are looking for different things here than you are in the south.

This all has given me an idea to post a related topic.

And you are right, Rolo does speak with a scientific tongue and his posts are always interesting.

[Paul Roberts]

One of the things we watch for in this area in the spring is when the night temperatures begin to stay warm. This is when the water starts to warm more rapidly and brings on that wonderful period of pre spawn and spawn fishing.

I think Paul's comment about this whole thing being a combination of events and conditions and not any one in particular may be the most accurate remark.

There may be a big difference in the southern lakes where the water stays warm enough to fish year round as opposed to the northern lakes where they freeze over with several inches of ice for an extended period. It seems that we are looking for different things here than you are in the south.

This all has given me an idea to post a related topic.

And you are right, Rolo does speak with a scientific tongue and his posts are always interesting.

As to latitudinal differences, they exist, but they aren't huge in the larger scale scheme of things. Let's say biologically there are not great differences. Bass are surprisingly similar -less so than I'd anticipated. Ecologically though things are different. The farther north you go though seasonal changes are more marked and consolidated. Ugh...wish I had time to delve back in, but I just don't. This topic has come up before and I'm sure it's been addressed in the past.

[RoLo]

It wasn't my intention to revisit this thread, but I’ve changed my mind.

“As to latitudinal differences, they exist, but they aren't huge in the larger scale scheme of things.”

Paul, I believe that latitudinal differences play a major role in the grand scheme.

In fact, the impact resulted in the advent of the “Florida-strain bass”,

a special subspecies that accommodates the tropical and subtropical niches.

I’ve spent several decades angling in New Jersey and now live in Florida.

I've been fortunate in being exposed to both northern-strain and Florida-strain bass.

This I can tell you, both strains share many similarities in kind, but on the other hand,

they exhibit noticeable differences. To be specific, the Florida-strain bass is much less tolerant

of cold-fronts, but far more tolerant of high temperatures.

IS TEMPERATURE THE KEY?

In my opening post I stated that I believe that water temperature is coincidental rather than causative.

Since fish are cold-blooded creatures, it stands to reason that water temperature can be too low

or too high for successful incubation.

Water temperatures often swing back-and-forth, which beg the questions:

1) Is the spawn triggered by “initial contact” with a key water temperature?

2) OR, does the key water temperature need to be “maintained” for a given number of hours?

This is often the case in the vegetable kingdom, which paradoxically may also require

a given number of “chill hours”.

3) If the above conditions are met, does a severe pullback in water temperature

abort the spawning cycle?

Degrading all the above, it’s been well-documented that largemouth bass can spawn successfully

in water temperatures from 55 to 75 degrees. Going further, I’ve seen Florida-Strain bass locked on a bed

in water over 85 deg F.

WHAT CONFIRMS THE SPAWN?

What are the visual signs that verity the actual spawn? Does the sight of light-color discs on the bottom serve as spawning evidence?

Buck bass are a lot like buck deer. During the rut, buck deer mark their territory by scraping the bark of several saplings

in their small rut site. During the bedding season, buck bass will sweep several mock beds, which may explain

how their tailfins get so beaten up. Owing to their territorial instincts, “live” beds are normally spaced about 20-ft apart or more.

When there are many beds spaced 2, 3 and 4 apart, it’s most likely the work of one buck-bass marking his territory.

OVERLAPPING STAGES

Bass are most aggressive during the “pre-spawn” and again during the late “post-spawn”.

During the actual spawn though, trophy cows are focused on reproduction and disinterested in feeding.

Although it's rarely discussed, most lakes undergo a generous period in time when all three stages overlap simultaneously.

Bass taken during the spawn that are not actually pulled from the bed,

arm most likely in the pre-spawn or post-spawn stage.

PHOTOPERIOD

Plant life cannot generate its own heat, so it must rely on solar energy.

Fish are cold-blooded creatures and similar to the vegetable kingdom, they too must rely on solar energy.

Although plant growth is limited by air temperature the key growth regulator is “photoperiod”.

I don't think it’s farfetched to believe that “photoperiod” plays a major role in timing the bass spawn.

Though rarely mentioned, there are spring runs in Florida that maintain year-round water temperatures of 70 to 72 deg F.

Examples include Silver Glen Springs, Rainbow Springs and Wakulla Springs.

Bass living in these ecosystems receive no thermal clues as to the timing

of the spawn. Nevertheless, spawning takes place much the same as other area waters,

during the period of lengthening daylight, chiefly during the months of February and March.

In the final analysis, predicting the exact timing of the spawn is like working with a bunch

of pieces from a jigsaw puzzle. The problem is, the funny-shaped pieces come from

several different puzzles

Roger

[Catt]

The major thrust of this thread and others is not so much about prediction of the actual spawn but to show that bass move from winter mode into pre-spawn mode a lot earlier than what water temperatures would indicate.

To quote an earlier thread

“There are no set reasons for pre-spawn as far as I know; I realized how early that pre-spawn movement started, because somewhere around mid-January every winter, I'd lose my deep fish. What I mean is that I quit catching them deep. I'd be catching them on jigs out in 20-25 feet of water and all of a sudden those fish were gone.

It took me a while to realize what was happening; those fish were just starting to move shallow. The bass would come out of that deep water and start moving shallow, and water temperature had very little if anything to do with it, contrary to what people believe. Most of the time, when these fish came out of deep water, the water temperature could be anywhere from 49 to 50-degrees and they'd leave those deep holes for shallower water”…Catt

This transition to shallow water was not with intent of building nest but finding food; now how shallow these pre-spawn bass move depended on weather stability not water temperature.

[Paul Roberts]

"Prespawn" is not some set biologically based term. It simply means before the spawn.

If you want to you could say that it begins... when??? It's the "chicken or egg" dilemma. The answer there is the egg -a much older "invention". It's to recognize that this is a very old process, the prime directive is to reproduce, and all "mechanisms" of energy redistribution are directed toward that end. Package this up and you have the current model of a given "species".

If you look for the beginning of something within this cycle, you are not recognizing that it is a indeed a cycle. Gonadal development begins in the late summer/early fall. But this is pre-dated by a cascade of growth hormone spikes that begins shortly after the spawn ends. And then the food has to be available for that growth and development to come to fruition. Not to mention that a given individual has to grow up first –no small feat that simply takes time.

Taking it to ground here:

Anglers tend to be looking for the beginning of the kind of fishing most do or expect: bass willing/able to chase ~horizontal lures in shallow water. But on-top-of-things anglers can catch 'em year round. Such information is now getting around but it takes time and effort to put it to work on your specific waters.

Warmwater fishes are known to start moving shallow right around ice-out, or even prior in some known instances. You would think that this a direct response to photoperiod, and partially is. But...when? Some of this cascade of events occurs the previous year and in many species from plants to insects to fish and mammals photoperiod can induce seasonally appropriate activity. But it doesn't stand alone -other steps in the cycle need to be in place. It's even possible to create experimental "monsters" but that's not the way nature IS. The flexibility, the deviations, that exist do so bc nature is not perfect. It is tumultuous and too rigid a mechanism would fail.

How does this help? Realize that there is a system in place, that you can track, but it's a complex (ancient) system that has built-in flexibility. Collectively it is very wise. Individually...there is a lot of foolishness.

Some observations I've made and feel are pretty sound: The seasons tend to progress surprisingly consistently. I've found this by measuring heating in ponds and found that they heat pretty much the same each year -despite what the weather "feels" like to us. We make LOUSY thermometers -way too subjective. It's SO common to hear anglers lamenting that "winter" just won't let up -"It's STILL "cold" this year". But I've been taking temperature profiles and watching bass behavior progression, and it's pretty much been on track with previous years. We should not trust the mush in our heads. Just bc you have to wear your winter coat today does not mean it's winter.

Water collects and holds heat. It does not give it up easily. The main heater-upper is the sun --angle and duration --and THAT you can bank on. It's been that way for a long enough time to offer some biological consistency.(Otherwise we'd likely still be protozoa fishing for bacteria lol). Even with cloud cover the sun is still at work. I watch and enjoy the "winter"/"spring" see-saw battle but know who's winning -like clockwork. My ponds record it in their heat budgets. Sure there's some variance year to year, but a LOT less than most people realize. Thus actual spawn times are pretty darned consistent.

Although the entire complex mechanism passes through a lot of time (a year) to get there in real life –where you fish -temperature matters in that it is the primary influence on what fish can do in X amount of time. And timing is critical bc there are babies to take care of –"mother" natures primary job.

It doesn’t really matter where the “start” is –the zeitgeber. What matters is understanding and recognizing the progression –its consistencies and vagaries, so that you can know where you are. Otherwise it’s just a bunch of puzzle pieces. (I like Roger’s analogy.) When you start comparing across phylogenetic lines, then you truly are picking up pieces from different boxes. There the complexity deepens.

We're not meant to understand it ALL. Appreciate the process, folks.

[Catt]

Outstanding explanation Paul

One has to consider more than just moon phases, weather, barometric pressure, seasons, water temperature, egg maturity and so forth. No single factor controls nature alone it's a combination of all of them.

What most anglers don’t understand is bass are controlled by certain environmental (must do) factors.

1. Reproduce effectively

2. Feed efficiently (maximize food intake and minimize energy output)

3. Prosper during extreme seasonal changes

4. Achieve good growth rates by domination of the warmer areas of the lake during the colder seasons.

If you apply these 4 environmental factors to your fishing you will increase your odds of catching not just bass but big bass.

[mjones23]

I have personally found through my fishing that once the water temp hits 50 for at least 3 or 4 days the bass will begin spawning even if the temperature drops in the following days/weeks. I was catching spawning bass last year in 43 degree temperatures but for a few weeks before we had a heat wave of 70 degree weather.

[RoLo]

Good read, Senkosam,

Specifying “lake types” as you did is very helpful.

Your correlation between 'pad size' and a 'topwater bite'

has given me food for thought.

I find it intriguing how the natural events of Mother Nature all tend to dovetail together.

Though two anglers may be observing completely different phenomena,

the odds are good that they’ll arrive at the station at the same time.

Roger

[Paul Roberts]

Not being a scuba diver, I don't know where bass are suspending just before moving into shallower water, but my earliest pre-spawn catches have been in late March in less than 7'. Just after ice out, the flats are bare and the water a bit more clear (though tanin stained) than at higher temperatures that promote suspended algae growth (turning the water a green/brown).

The lowland lakes I fish, consistently show many bass (pre or postspawn, male and female) in shallower water less than 4' and always coincides with weed growth as a primary timing indicator.

I see this from late April to late June year after year, with the majority of big fish caught just prior to or after being on the nest or in a nesting area. Fish in well developed weed beds, not on nests, will charge noisy topwaters from over 5' away; fish on beds I don't mess with but note their presence.

Once pad size reaches maximum diameter, less top water charging occurs and I can only assume that most of the super aggressive bass have left the shallows because water levels are dropping and most are post spawn, feeding in deeper water as usual.

Weed growth always coincides with water temperatures above 50 degrees, as does the presence of shallow bass and prey species which also stage spawns ahead of bass and are easy pickings (possibly another factor in bass migration to shallow water pre-spawn).

IMO I also agree that bass spawn stages always overlap between various populations of bass and depending on environmental changes whatever they are.

Highland, mountain lakes in my area always start later than lowland lakes most likely because many have harder bottoms, ice out is later and the water generally clearer.

That is an interesting observation, and I too see the relationship between cover and prey in early spring. But I also add temperature into the mix. Bluegills are the primary forage where I fish and they are heat lovers, and I've seen hoards of them where there is little cover. These tend to be small 'gills though. It does seem that cover is a requirement for large 'gills -the ones the larger bass target. Having cover in those heated shallows, or maybe heat n those cover areas, makes a spot great.

I see two major events in spring, in relation to the shallows:

-The first movements to the shallows are feeding movements.

-The second are the spawning movements. Rich Zaleski talked about the onset of the spawn marked by a movement AWAY from the shallows by the bass. He believes this is bc bass are relocating from prime feeding locations to established spawning locations (site fidelity).

Your observations about bass being in less than 7fow in early spring mirror some telemetry studies I've seen. The general pattern is a beeline to certain shallow bays, and these of course are good bass and prey habitat -they have cover. It makes sense that they suspend, bc after ice-out, the surface waters are now warmer. Likely they suspend at cover edges, and move up as the shallows warm and growth occurs. This reminds me of the movements to the warmed shallows of salmonids on Lake Ontario's southern shore. A good chunk of the population of salmonids in that immense lake was packed on that south shore in spring. The paper graph images we'd get, of trout, salmon and baitfish just stacked along the south coast were amazing

In the shallow ponds I observe, immediately after ice-out I see somewhat roiled water due I believe to temperature mixing and methane release, then clearing (barring wind), then the algae growth. That cold clear water does appear to be bass-less -although isn't always entirely. I like to see some growth too, which means temps are climbing. Another major factor in both plant and algae growth is sunlight. Big blooms tend to occur after bright periods.

There's a point where heated shallows really consolidate the action, and it is usually with cover too. I try hard to hit this window. The hot periods see-saw with the weather though so it's a game of weather watching, and luck. Then as the water warms deeper, the consolidation laxes and the fishing gets less "intense". This is also the time of temperature stability (enough heated water now) that spawning movements are apt to begin.

Prime spawning areas may be different than feeding areas. Males often choose a prominent cover piece to place a bed against. But too dense cover allows egg stealing 'gills to get too close -thus the sparse cover observations. The individual male bass in my ponds do not make multiple beds over an area. They do often make two side-by-side and I think the female chooses one over the other. This might be a response to the water level changes that commonly happen over the course of the spawn, and/or to female choice as females tend to be bigger and need more water. I have one pond that had a shortage of males (no idea why -maybe catch and kill bed fishing) and females lined up and fought over the males and their beds.

As to highland and lowland, water depth and fertility weigh in heavy there. The clarity is more a symptom than a cause I think. Interestingly there are probably arms/coves on those highlands that behave more like "lowlands".

Roger:

"Though two anglers may be observing completely different phenomena, the odds are good that they’ll arrive at the station at the same time."

Can't find the thumb-up emoticon.

[Paul Roberts]

What's even more interesting Roger is that the topwater bite (or just subsurface smack) occurs over certain rocky flats that contain no pads once the pads reach 1/4 size normal diameter and the water clarity is reduced with an increase microscopic algae.

Reduced clarity could be a security thing because nothing swims in the shallows when the water is cold and clear, not even baitfish. Also, on cloudy/rainy days, areas 30 yards from any thickening weed edges produces surface strikes over flats in 5'. These fish are either pre- or post spawn fish because the average spawn occurs in 3' or less in the lakes I fish.

Ralph Manns, who's done a lot of scuba diving, says that shallow bass tend to stay just deep enough to keep beyond visible from the surface. In my ponds, most of the time, the majority of the bass are not visible. They are most apt to be visible during the spawn, and around cover (including dry shoreline cover such as high banks and shoreline trees).

Interestingly, there can be movements during early spring incited by rapid temperature spikes in which masses of bass enter the shallows and seem not to care about being seen. I've seen this well prior to beds being put down (as well as with and without moon-synchronized spawning movements).

[Paul Roberts]

Good read Paul.

The migration factor made me return to the idea that spawn hormones or ripening eggs may have less to do with early spring, shallow bass location and more to do with the food chain spawn sequence. In all lakes I fish the order of species going super shallow to spawn are:

white perch - yellow perch - pickerel - bass - sunfish - catfish - (not sure when fatheads spawn) White and yellow perch spawn in water around 50 degrees; pickerel, above 55; bass above 60.

The first three species are super nutty and school en mass in certain areas. This lasts for a week and bass that come in shallow for the kill might sense this activity, drawn to it prior to their own spawn and nutty, aggressive periods. Once the spawn instinct takes hold, feeding is secondary to finding and bedding mates. Migrations pass each other by and fingerling locations produce more feeding by bass not locked into spawning.

Just a thought...

Frank

I think you are right. That's what I see happening too. In those intense consolidated circumstances I mentioned, there is no doubt what's going on there. It's almost scary. Those bass, esp mature ones, come and go with feeding opportunities.

The spawn on the other hand takes place pretty well distributed around my ponds, bc there is good substrate all along the shorelines of most of them. And once it's up and running, well that's obvious too.

The two "movements" may occur in the same general areas, but the reasons or activity is very different.

[BILLYsobx]

I believe the moon phase affects tidal bass the most because the tides are either above normal or below. So after they have a neap tide and it starts changing they know their spawning ground will remain full for them to move in and get it over with. I know on our local river the actual spawn is over in by may and started the last week in march

[Paul Roberts]

Tidal anglers know the affects of water level changes and how bass adapt. And I'd mentioned that water level rises are a major cue for Central American bass to spawn. But water level changes can affect bass in many if not most waters. Big lake smallies, that receive heavy wind and resulting waves, are known to spawn relatively deep as that's where the egg success is highest. There is evidence that UV light penetration affects egg survival in bluegills, and bed depth is one way that gets "regulated". One can imagine that water clarity affects this too.

In my own ponds the bass appear to bed at a certain preferred depth - about 2-1/2fow. And as I'd mentioned they often make two beds. It appears the females choose one over the other. I got an idea why as I began to notice water levels can vary surprisingly over the course of the spawn, with water generally receding after spring recharge. The severity of that depends in large part on the weather. Sometimes it's in the middle of the spawn. One year I watched as the shallower of the double beds lost enough water that the larger females wouldn't use them. They used the deeper of the two.

Contrary though were two El Nino influenced years that brought increasing water levels through the spawn. Bass kept making beds at the two foot mark, which meant successive beds got higher and higher up the banks. And older beds simply got deeper and deeper -enough that I couldn't keep track of the guarding males very well anymore. I measured a rise rate of up to 2inches per day for several weeks. The result was two years of exceptional fry survival, due to the cover offered the fry by flooded shoreline vegetation. This not only bodes well for the future, but directly affected our fishing with us (who were abreast of the situation) having to go to finesse rigs to bring our catch rates back up to tolerable in some waters. This was not the first time I'd seen, and had to adjust for, this scenario in my fishing. Watch for it.

[Pantera61]

MORE RELEVANT ON THIS THREAD

Posted 04 April 2011 - 08:16 PM

Bass Spawning Trigger

« on: March 01, 2010, 10:52:59 AM »

I posted this on another forum many years ago and it went over like a lead zeppelin. I don't know if this is the proper forum, if not, the mods can move it as requires.

Here goes:

LIGHT PENETRATION AND THE EFFECT ON LARGEMOUTH BASS SPAWNING

Experienced bass anglers accept the correlation between water temperature and the body processes and activity level of the largemouth bass. We know, for example as water temperatures increase, active feeding periods are extended. This continues until a balanced level is reached, somewhere in the 70°F - 75°F range. As the water temperatures climb above that point however, activity begins to decline until a near dormant state again occurs.

Spawning is another activity conventional wisdom has associated with warming water trends. It's believed bass begin their migration from wintering areas to shallow water to spawn as the result of the water temperature. It is ingrained into the mind of every angler I have met, read or heard. It is accepted as gospel to the exclusion of every other factor. Well, once in a while a nod is made to the effects of the wind but even that is considered to be negligible.

It’s important to remember bass are not slaves to their environment. Although conscious decisions aren’t made. Millions of years of response to specific stimuli cause the bass to react in a specific way. They don’t have the capacity to think but stupid as they are compared to humans, their species has been around a lot longer than ours.

Considering the amount of energy necessary to expend warm water at the depths the bass where believed to winter, it would take to raise the temperature. Upon further examination one would recognize that as a false premise. No single mechanism is so exclusive that others should be overlooked. There is one catalyst in particular, which I think is often disregarded too often for the anglers' good.

This dependence upon water temperature causes equally important factors to be disregarded.

I began to notice after a period of years, regardless of water temperature, bass seemed to be on the spawning beds about the same time every year. Then in the spring of 2000, it seemed the Northeastern U.S. had a remarkably cloudy winter, spring and summer

The mechanism is light penetration. Light penetration that causes the water to warm. Most anglers will agree that cold, muddy water is the most difficult to fish successfully. Unimpeded light penetration has two effects. The first is to stimulate the growth of subsurface vegetation by initiating the process of photosynthesis. The process releases oxygen into the water column and plants reduce turbidy by a filter effect. Light particles are diffused by suspended particles of sand, algae or other material, which gives/affects water clarity.

The second process is related to bass physiology. Bass, as most other vertebrates, possess a pineal gland. The pineal gland can be thought of as almost as vestigial eye. It is sensitive to the presence and concentration of light. As the pineal gland detects the additional and extended periods of light, stimulated the spawning cascade is initiated. Hormone production increases, longer feeding periods occur, eggs and milt begins to develop and start the spawning cycle.

I began researching spawning time, beginning with a review of my own fishing journals. I compared spawning times across the U.S. from south to north. It didn't surprise me to find that bass spawn in Florida than New Jersey or Wisconsin. That was simply reaffirmed. I began to notice something else, though. And to my mind, quite interesting: it appeared that bass begin spawning along latitudinal lines.

In other words, cities going east to west, Trenton, NJ, Columbus, OH and Topeka KS, are all aligned within one degree the 40th parallel. Bass in those areas would begin spawning at about the same time. There are climatic and other environmental differences between those cities, so what could be the common denominator between those locations to trigger spawning to occur at about the same time.

Why is that relevant?

I stopped thinking downward toward the water and started looking upward toward the Sun. After the winter solstice, December 22 two things occur. The amount of daylight increase and the position of the Sun begin getting higher on the horizon. That has the combined effect of light penetrating deeper into the water for a longer period of time.

This is significant for two reasons. The first is an increase in sub-surface vegetation growth, putting more oxygen into the water. The second is actually related to the Evidence linking the spawn to light rather that water temperature can be shown that even a minor drop in the water temperature for several days will extend the hatching period the bass eggs and the male will not abandon the spawning bed. But if there is a substantial decrease in water clarity as a result of rain, the male will abandon the nest. It appears to be the relation between egg maturation and water clarity could be consider almost photosynthetic. Linked.stimulats

There is a second effect that can be explained by the position of the sun and bass location. It's been a long held belief that bass are found more often on the north or northwestern shore of lakes early in the season because of protection from winds from that direction. If you take the time to observe areas of snowfall and how the snow melts, the first areas to melt are on the west, northwest, and north sides of a point. They are exposed for the longest periods of time and blowing winds have no effect on set snow.

Opinions, comments, questions?

Unapologetically Abu! Dynamically Daiwa! Enthusiastically Evergreen! Manically Megabass! Outrageously O.S.P.!

Providing reliable information for a real long time!

[Paul Roberts]

The sun runs the big picture. But...there are a lot of confounding details.

Different animals react to light differently. I can get my chickens to lay eggs, or stop, with a light bulb. But the same is not true for all creatures. The variations there are quite wide. Most creatures carry an "endogenous rhythm" (internal clock) that goes off at the right times (say to breed), even under complete long term darkness in lab studies. Again, it's a cycle, a cascade of linked events. But some creatures are more "responsive" in the short term than others. If bass were like chickens, we'd already know that. Not that photoperiod is unimportant. There is a fair amount of research on photoperiod alterations on FW fish. You should delve in. But I warn you, the road is a tangled one.

There is great natural drive to simplify things -too far for our own good often. Good to home in where you think you see a pattern, but be open to confounding influences and “slop” in the system.

[Pantera61]

The sun runs the big picture. But...there are a lot of confounding details.

Different animals react to light differently. I can get my chickens to lay eggs, or stop, with a light bulb. But the same is not true for all creatures. The variations there are quite wide. Most creatures carry an "endogenous rhythm" (internal clock) that goes off at the right times (say to breed), even under complete long term darkness in lab studies. Again, it's a cycle, a cascade of linked events. But some creatures are more "responsive" in the short term than others. If bass were like chickens, we'd already know that. Not that photoperiod is unimportant. There is a fair amount of research on photoperiod alterations on FW fish. You should delve in. But I warn you, the road is a tangled one.

There is great natural drive to simplify things -too far for our own good often. Good to home in where you think you see a pattern, but be open to confounding influences and “slop” in the system.

Did you ever wonder why old time anglers linked dogwood blossoms to bass spawns?

[Paul Roberts]

Did you ever wonder why old time anglers linked dogwood blossoms to bass spawns?

I have, and tried that with plum blossoms that bloom roughly when the bass come onto beds. I had plums growing around my ponds and chose a few to watch while the bass did their thing. Individual plums initiated blooming over a month-long period (off the top of my head here). Some were in full bloom while others nearby hadn't even started. I can't speak for all plants, but at least with plums, it was a wash. Now, maybe if I had worked harder I could have identified specific plum plants that matched specific ponds. You get my drift there.

But, I was dubious from the start as the requirements of plants compared to...you name it, are different. I now enjoy those flowers but have all but dropped generalized phenology. Not closed, but -it's just not part of what I look at now.

And as an aside, why is it "old timers" (getting there myself), while potentially wise, and maybe had more time to observe nature --maybe-- are believed to have better memories, or better yet, kept better records than the rest of us? I think "old timers" are mythical beasts. Beware of confusing myth with evidence.

[Paul Roberts]

Before you feel I'm dissing you, or maybe after...

In a general sense, you are right on. But I still need my thermometer, the best way I know to measure "stored sunlight" so to speak. Even then, as others have mentioned above, it just doesn't pan out like clockwork. You really can't plan a day's or even weeks fishing by the Julian calendar.

[Pantera61]

I have, and tried that with plum blossoms that bloom roughly when the bass come onto beds. I had plums growing around my ponds and chose a few to watch while the bass did their thing. Individual plums initiated blooming over a month-long period (off the top of my head here). Some were in full bloom while others nearby hadn't even started. I can't speak for all plants, but at least with plums, it was a wash. Now, maybe if I had worked harder I could have identified specific plum plants that matched specific ponds. You get my drift there.

But, I was dubious from the start as the requirements of plants compared to...you name it, are different. I now enjoy those flowers but have all but dropped generalized phenology. Not closed, but -it's just not part of what I look at now.

And as an aside, why is it "old timers" (getting there myself), while potentially wise, and maybe had more time to observe nature --maybe-- are believed to have better memories, or better yet, kept better records than the rest of us? I think "old timers" are mythical beasts. Beware of confusing myth with evidence.

That observation is what got me to thinking about this whole mess and how I came to my own conclusion about how the two coincide. The only common denominator is the Sun, more specifically the altitude of the Sun in the sky. After the Winter Solstice, the Sun climbs higher and higher on the horizon. It reaches that point sooner in the south than it does in the north and if you watch spawning dates on a U.S. map, again it coincides with between 22.5 degrees and 28 degrees on the horizon. I can't find my exact info at my fingertips but it works.

[Bassbutt]

Very interesting observations and interpretations, HOWEVER, I have it from a good source that the overriding factor in bass spawning is when the LILACS are blooming........

[Paul Roberts]

...if you watch spawning dates on a U.S. map, again it coincides with between 22.5 degrees and 28 degrees on the horizon.

I'm sorry. I'm not understanding. What is the significance of theses latitudes?

[RoLo]

That observation is what got me to thinking about this whole mess and how I came to my own conclusion about how the two coincide. The only common denominator is the Sun, more specifically the altitude of the Sun in the sky. After the Winter Solstice, the Sun climbs higher and higher on the horizon. It reaches that point sooner in the south than it does in the north and if you watch spawning dates on a U.S. map, again it coincides with between 22.5 degrees and 28 degrees on the horizon. I can't find my exact info at my fingertips but it works.

If you're referring to sun angle Pantera, I totally agree (otherwise I'm confused).

For the cannabis grower it’s all about “photoperiod” because the grow lights are always

perpendicular to the plant heads. With regard to our hydrosphere though,

solar gain is dependent on the combination of “photoperiod” and “sun angle”.

What better example is there than “winter”, the result of an oblique sun angle

coupled with shortened days. This dynamic duo (period and angle) easily offsets

the fact that the sun is closest to the earth during the winter.

Roger

[RoLo]

Very interesting observations and interpretations, HOWEVER, I have it from a good source that the overriding factor in bass spawning is when the LILACS are blooming........

Another good biological marker is the first brood of the red winged blackbird.

Roger

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