Triggers for pre-spawn/spawn

[Blue Streak]

Catt power plant lakes are a very special and isolated situation. Those bass have adapted over time, you can hardly compare that to normal situations. I know there are many factors that determine the spawn, but temp has a whole lot to do with when those eggs are ripe. And I have seen bass leave the bedding areas when a real hard cold front hits and the water drops a few degrees.

[RoLo]

In my view, the two most influential factors of the spawning event are “photoperiod” (above all)

and “water temperature” (essentially coincidental).

For a few years, we lived in an adult community on the north shore of Lake Walk-in-Water, Florida.

We had a private boat ramp and lakefront pier that extended several hundred feet into the lake,

giving me a unique opportunity to learn. On this same waterbody, I’ve found fresh-swept beds

as early as January and as late as June, which represents a six-month disparity!

During this half-year period, water temperatures varied between 25 and 30 degrees,

yet all nesting activity occurred during the period of increasing day-length (Dec 21 to Jun 21).

To my mind, this clearly implicates “photoperiod”

There are several spring-fed lakes in central Florida that maintain a year-round water temperature

of 72-deg F. Bass living in these stable ecosystems receive zero input from water temperature,

yet they spawn unerringly every year during the period of increasing day-length.

To my mind, this only further reinforces the "photoperiod” theory.

As for “lunar influence”, I simply do not know. Based on tidal cycles in saltwater

and menstrual cycles of primates, the moon’s influence certainly seems plausible.

All the same, my own harvest records have failed to identify a correlation tied to lunar phases.

I was relieved to read a similar statement published by the In-Fisherman staff.

Roger

[Blue Streak]

You use a very good example of the photoperiod. I am curious however about the highest and lowest temp during that 25 to 30 degree swing that you speak of. And also, if that same photoperiod occured on a lake where the temp is a constant 45 degrees, would the bass still spawn?

[Catt]

The bass are backwards on power plant lakes; instead of waiting on the water to warm up they wait for the water to cool down.

On a certain Power Plant lake in Texas the coldest water at both ends was 82, it was 86 mid-lake and 94 at the discharge; the bass still spawn right on cue.

Here’s another one to chew on; Toro creek located below the Toledo Bend Dam is feed by water from the lake at a depth of 112’ with a current water flow average of 200-250 cubic feet per second. The water temperature on the upper end never rises above the low 50s and yet the bass still spawn.

[Paul Roberts]

There is no one event. There are multiple events bc it is not linear but a cycle that starts the previous year.

Key events:

Egg maturation -Having the raw materials to get the job done happens the previous year or, in some individuals or even populations during tough conditions, the final "deposits" are made during early spring. This is why the larger fish are more apt to spawn earliest -they can afford it. And small fish are most apt spawn latest. I've seen this in my own (albeit amateur) pond studies.

Photoperiod -Photoperiod changes have direct endocrine effects that goad the process and GENERALLY synchonize the event. Lots of literature out there on this and it's powerful enough to experimentally force spawning events in fish and other animals -with other keys in place.

Temperature -Temperature is critical to cold-blooded creatures, and with fish it is the final push. It allows for body weight gain efficiency, activity required for spawning behaviors, and protects temperature sensitive eggs.

Moon Phase -This appears to be a real effect -the full and possibly the new. It seems to be a cue that allows for a mass synchonization, provided the stage is set (the previous three keys): I've recorded years when spawning occurred on temperature swings, falling in between the moons.

The first two of these keys we can't do much about really (unless you are Flukemaster and can fatten your fish on his private lake). But as far as fishing is concerned, temperature and secondarily moon phase are the things to track. And it has worked, like clockwork, for me.

Catt mentions powerplant lakes, and there are also bass planted far south of their natural range. There are lakes in Central America that never cool down much and have flat photoperiods. Those bass can spawn anytime and have adapted their cues to water level changes. They may spawn over a long seasonal window but what stops them is the need for tissue recovery and growth. Supposedly bass do poorly down there and burn out young. Nature finds a way, at least to a certain degree in that living things didn't come from nowhere, they have a history, and that dictates what they are and what they can do.

[Catt]

Merci Beau Coup Paul

[Blue Streak]

Paul in this area when the water hits about 65 and the May full moon occurs at that time the bass just pile up on the beds. It seems to happen over night. Fishing is outstanding when the two occur at the same time.

[Paul Roberts]

Paul in this area when the water hits about 65 and the May full moon occurs at that time the bass just pile up on the beds. It seems to happen over night. Fishing is outstanding when the two occur at the same time.

I've seen the same thing, and it is CRAZY! The days we talk about for years to come. They are somewhat predictable in that we can know what the cues are, but, nature is as fickle as the weather so we too often get dashed. So much for "clockwork". What's cool is that it's not just us getting our hopes dashed, it's the fish too. I love being in touch. It feels right.

If you know what you are seeing, even if the "big wave" doesn't happen exactly, you can see it scattered about, watch the progression, and still be in the show. Fun stuff. And no two waters play out the exact same way either -even two little ponds side by side. The same biological events are stirring, but the ecological underpinnings differ.

[Catt]

I think egg maturation is #1 trigger that causes bass to move into pre-spawn and then eventually into spawn. The major misconception is people try to put hard numbers with concerns to temperature or hard dates of the spawn but it can't be done because there are too many variables other than temperature and date. These misconceptions are why many people believe they are fishing the whole pre-spawn or spawn when in reality they have missed a majority of both.

I think water temperatures are just coincidental; merely something we can easily monitor but is a coincidental symptom rather than the actual cause. If one sits around with a thermometer in hand waiting on a mystical number to be reached or watches for certain trees to bloom they are missing out on what the bass are actually doing.

[Hyrule Bass]

i dunno about all this scientific stuff so much, but the bass in my NoVA pond are full of eggs, but not yet on beds. what stage of the spawn is this? oh and theyre looking to eat too, caught 4 in a 15 minute period yesterday, but they still wont touch soft plastics....

[Paul Roberts]

I think egg maturation is #1 trigger that causes bass to move into pre-spawn and then eventually into spawn. The major misconception is people try to put hard numbers with concerns to temperature or hard dates of the spawn but it can't be done because there are too many variables other than temperature and date. These misconceptions are why many people believe they are fishing the whole pre-spawn or spawn when in reality they have missed a majority of both.

I think water temperatures are just coincidental; merely something we can easily monitor but is a coincidental symptom rather than the actual cause. If one sits around with a thermometer in hand waiting on a mystical number to be reached or watches for certain trees to bloom they are missing out on what the bass are actually doing.

That may be -egg maturation must happen before they can drop them. But what controls (or maybe "influences" is better) that? Not all the bass spawn when water temps are “optimal”, that's for sure. Egg maturation due to necessary nutrients (fats esp apparently), previous year photoperiod entrainment possibly, and bedding site fidelity, all likely play roles. But temperature plays a very powerful and apparently pretty consistent role too, or creates a powerful barrier to (at least successful) spawning.

There might be a discrepancy in definitions too. To many anglers, just seeing a bass on a bed may constitute “spawning”. But males will make beds prematurely, and then abandon them. I’ve seen small waves of this activity, but it’s a false start. I’ve also seen big waves of bass –like a majority of a pond’s population (both males and females) –move onto spawning banks, only to drop away again –no spawning having happened.

As far as I been able to find, from lab and field studies I’ve read and from what I’ve been able to document for myself (looking closer than most), the spawn in northern LM is initiated at around 60F: 58F to 62F. And it might be most critical when bass actually get onto the beds. What’s interesting, and telling, is that egg survival studies show mortality spiking sharply around 55F. While these values may not encompass all there is to know about all native strains of LM, it appears to be consistent enough as to cover the majority.

I hear anecdotal evidence about bass “spawning” in much colder water, and this might be so, but there’s likely more to many of those stories. I too have recorded LM’s on egg-filled nests in water as cold as 48F, directly in the bed! And if that was the only day I saw such a fish, I might have concluded that bass can spawn in 48F water. But I had been watching that fish, and many others, for weeks. The truth was, and was so in every such bed I recorded colder than ”normal” temps in, the actual egg dropping had happened after the >58F initiation temps. And such "initiation temps" are not just a number, but stability at that rough number for a certain period of time. This is very much tied to seasonal realities (photoperiod, sun angle, weather, and heat retention -Catt's "coincidence" mention). In those cold beds, severe cold fronts had altered shallow water temperatures drastically. Eggs suffering those conditions most likely die and do not contribute much to the future, generally keeping the majority within the “normal” realm.

I did once observe a small “wave” of new (or possibly second round) spawners arrive and drop eggs at 55F. But this was during a prolonged cold streak that came well after the initiation temps had already been reached. This happened in part as an artifact of their living in a small shallow pond, not able to be buffered from such weather as would have happened in a larger water body. But, it does show that it’s certainly possible. Nature can be “loose” about such things so the more deeply you look, the more deviations you might find. Deviations can allow populations to survive change over the long haul. Most of those deviants fail however, in the short term. And some years almost entire bass spawns fail, regardless of timing. The limitations dished out are very real and many of those deviations, while interesting, aren’t as likely to put a lot of fish in our boats year after year.

As to fishing with a thermometer... You're right, and I tried that. I got temperatures at depth in my study ponds by clipping a thermometer onto a snap and casting it out there. (Sure wished I had dataloggers.) Never caught a single bass doing that. More seriously, your point is well taken: fishing got in the way of my observation and documentation, and vice-versa. Mutually exclusive. Bass spawned, even in those small ponds, over a period of weeks. Over all the ponds/small res I looked at, over months. And this is even more so if you include even larger water bodies into your beat. Most people would rather be fishing.

[Blue Streak]

Paul I am impressed with your research and information, you have made this as understandable as one can. You have put scientific fact to things I have observed over many years on the water. I knew what to look for and when to expect them, but sometimes I did not fully understand why. Thanks and keep up the good work.

[Paul Roberts]

Paul I am impressed with your research and information, you have made this as understandable as one can. You have put scientific fact to things I have observed over many years on the water. I knew what to look for and when to expect them, but sometimes I did not fully understand why. Thanks and keep up the good work.

Thanks Blue Streak (I take it that's a boat?). That and Tommy's "Merci" are true compliments, coming from people who've seen a few things, more than a few times around.

[Blue Streak]

Thanks Blue Streak (I take it that's a boat?). That and Tommy's "Merci" are true compliments, coming from people who've seen a few things, more than a few times around.

You are right Paul, that is what they called my Pro Craft in my old tournament days. It's blue and it would fly. And I have been around so many times I am now a dizzy old fart. Wouldn't it be great if we could all get together over a beer and have this discussion?

[Catt]

You are right Paul, that is what they called my Pro Craft in my old tournament days. It's blue and it would fly. And I have been around so many times I am now a dizzy old fart. Wouldn't it be great if we could all get together over a beer and have this discussion?

I told Paul that while I would love to fish with him I think sitting around the fire place with a glass of bourbon & a cigar would be far more intriguing.

[Thad]

I'm with J on this. There are just too many variables involved. We'll never have a definitive answer. It seems nothing ever goes by the book in bass fishing. The more you try to go by the book the more loops are going to be thrown at you. I do pay attention to all of the variables but it still just comes down to time on the water.

[Dwight Hottle]

Catt wrote

I told Paul that while I would love to fish with him I think sitting around the fire place with a glass of bourbon & a cigar would be far more intriguing.

I would like a seat at that fireplace just so I could listen to that conversation. I'll even bring the drinks.

[Paul Roberts]

I'm with J on this. There are just too many variables involved. We'll never have a definitive answer. It seems nothing ever goes by the book in bass fishing. The more you try to go by the book the more loops are going to be thrown at you. I do pay attention to all of the variables but it still just comes down to time on the water.

Practically speaking, you're right. Hindsight has the best chance of being 20:20 of course. What we see in front of us each day is a lot more fuzzy. Each day is a new day, and no one (including the fish) know exactly what that'll bring. Successful fishing is in large part being good at flying by the seat of your pants. Sure feels good though when we can be on the water enough to be on top of things. Just gotta be out there and "noticing stuff". Helps to know what to look for though. And...what those variables mean. That's where the game is played. I was unable to do that by just "getting a feel for it". I had to measure, for myself. Then it starts to become real. That is what those "numbers" are for. And Catt's right, you can't just pull one out of a hat and trust that.

"There is only as much beauty available to us (in nature) as we are prepared to appreciate. And not a grain more." -Thoreau (another noticer of cool stuff).

Yeah, I'd love to sit in on a good chat session too. Both the beer and bourbon sound great. I can smell the ribs now! Would be fun. Be better if we all lived closer. Speaking of that...Dwight, we might be visiting Erie sometime this summer (my wife has family there as I've mentioned before). If the stars align maybe I'll give you a shout and we can get together for something brown -bourbon, beer, smallies mebbe even. Maybe J can make the run too. Think we can we pry Tommy from The Bend?? PARTY AT DWIGHT"S!!!

BTW: I added a bit to my last long post, for a little more clarity.

[J Francho]

Look at "Posty McPostalot," LOL. Disappears all winter, and now making fishing dates :lol::lol::lol:

[Paul Roberts]

Look at "Posty McPostalot," LOL. Disappears all winter, and now making fishing dates :lol::lol::lol:

You mean I've lost my BR friendship status already? Who are you, Mr Moderator big pants??!

Congrats by the way -I think

Hey, in all seriousness it was a heck of a winter. Started with a BIG forest fire -biggest fire priority in the nation then. We lost 170 homes up here. Mine wasn't one of them, but...it's mighty dark and quiet up here at night now.

[senile1]

This thread was "pinned" early on and I hadn't noticed that it was still so active until today. Paul, it's good to see you back and posting. I really appreciate your in-depth knowledge of fish behavior.

[Blue Streak]

You know if you give the old guys a glass of bourbon in front of a warm fireplace we would all be taking a senior nap in about an hour.

I agree about the variables, we can go by what we have learned over the years but you have to be willing and sharp enough to make adjustments throughout the day. Should not get fenced in by too many rules, be flexible and creative I think that may be what seperates KVD from all the rest.

[Paul Roberts]

You know if you give the old guys a glass of bourbon in front of a warm fireplace we would all be taking a senior nap in about an hour.

I agree about the variables, we can go by what we have learned over the years but you have to be willing and sharp enough to make adjustments throughout the day. Should not get fenced in by too many rules, be flexible and creative I think that may be what seperates KVD from all the rest.

Well, I have almost zilch experience in competitive bass fishing, but from what I can gather and guess, KVD separates himself with his drive, focus, knowledge, research (on and off the water) and rapid assessment. That latter requires the research and knowledge. I remember hearing Gerald Swindle say he wished tournaments could be run without ANY pre-fishing days; Pure seat of the pants stuff. I imagined KVDs response: "What are you nuts?" Pure speculation there.

Hey O' Lucid1!

[Catt]

What sets KVD apart from the crowd is what made Larry Nixon one of the top 5 angles of all time. Versatility, they both have an uncanny ability to rapidly adjust to changing conditions on the water. Not being able to pre-fish would slow most anglers down but it would only serve as an advantage for a KVD or Nixon…but that’s a subject for another discussion.

That's what makes bass appear to be so elusive is about the time you think you have them figured out they prove to you that you don't.

[Blue Streak]

I have always believed that there are no hard, fast rules for bass fishing. There are certain things that should work under certain conditions, but not always. That is why it is so important to assess the situation and adjust accordingly.

BUT Catt has posted an excellent topic here about the spawn which is a a complex and confusing subject and we were having a great discussion until I sort of steered this in a different direction. I think maybe it is time we get back on topic. I would love to hear from other members about their experience about the spawn in their area, and what they watch for as a trigger. One thing I am sure of is this whole thing varies greatly geographically. What happens in the south is certainly different from the north. I agree that bass would spawn in extreme conditions, they would have to adapt or they would perish. But I don't think you would have a good spawn or a hardy population. Rolo speaks of bass spawning over a six month period in Florida with a great deal of temperature fluctuation. I don't think that could ever possibly happen in the north or most other places in this country, yet I believe what Rolo says about his area.

And I agree that it takes more than one thing to create a trigger for the spawn. I still believe that temperature is the most influential because bass are after all cold blooded creatures. I think The moon phase is a close second and can really make things pop when a full moon occurs at just the right time. The length of day light is not a big consideration as far as I am concerned because in all of the years I have fished, and all of the fishermen I know not one has told me that you need to be on the water when daylight reaches ten hours and forty seven minutes or so on. I believe that bass will spawn without a change in daylight hours as long as the temperature and moon phase are right.