Does time of day change where the fish will be?

[Nebraskabassin]

When I go fishing I like to be out on the water when its still a bit dark. So the past week we usually have the boat in by 5 am. We fish mainly deep water because that is where we normally catch them this time of year. But we dont usually start catching anything until around 7-730. Are the fish shallower early in the morning and then move out to the deep areas as the day moves on? Its starting to feel really pointless waking up at 430.

[Hornytoad 10]

You got it, at night when the water cools down fish come up shallow to feed and usually stay that way until the it starts to warm up, then they move into deeper water because it is cooler.

[NateFollmer]

Depends. I think the sun has more to do with it than the actual time of day. If's its cloudy out, the fish may stay shallow all day long. If you get up that early, start shallow and work your way out, once you find the fish, stay there until conditions change.

[Grey Wolf]

Depends. I think the sun has more to do with it than the actual time of day. If's its cloudy out, the fish may stay shallow all day long. If you get up that early, start shallow and work your way out, once you find the fish, stay there until conditions change.

X2.

[Nitrofreak]

You are exactly correct the fish do not have eye lids and cannot cover their eyes in the bright sunlit days so they will find cover, docks deep water etc..if they were to stay in shallow water they will go blind eventually.

[Randall]

Here are three facts about bass to help with understanding the myths about them moving first.

1.Shallow bass don't actually move deeper from shallow water in most cases. They can and do often move out to deeper water but stay shallow suspended over deep water. Making swim bladder adjustments takes a lot of time and energy so for the most part bass stay at the same depth during a day.

2. Daily bass movement in most cases has almost nothing to do with temperature.

3.Fish may not have eyelids but they have no problems with bright sun in shallow water and will not go blind.

Here is just one thing that could be happening. Shad do not have a swimbladder so they can and do make daily moves from shallow to deep. When they are shallow the shallow bass are more active. When the shad move deep the deep fish turn on.

[brushhoggin]

so i need to study shad patterns and behavior more than  bass behavior.

[garland7]

Many things will affect where the bass will be, and their activity level. Things like light penetration ( because they are ambush feeders, so may move out and suspend or bury up ), oxygen levels, current ( rivers and lakes ), Moon and sun phases, water temps., Ph levels, season and all that stuff. I am Like you, like to be out before the sun comes up and as it is going down, ( better topwater in warm sunny weather ), but lots of times have caught my bigger fish later in the day, and usually not right on the banks.

[Eddie Munster]

I'm by no means an expert but I have caught some of my biggest fish in shallow water with direct sunlight during the middle of the day (11am-6pm) including the 9lber in my avatar.

Sunlight is a minor factor IMO.

[Catt]

Here are three facts about bass to help with understanding the myths about them moving first.

1.Shallow bass don't actually move deeper from shallow water in most cases. They can and do often move out to deeper water but stay shallow suspended over deep water. Making swim bladder adjustments takes a lot of time and energy so for the most part bass stay at the same depth during a day.

2. Daily bass movement in most cases has almost nothing to do with temperature.

3.Fish may not have eyelids but they have no problems with bright sun in shallow water and will not go blind.

Here is just one thing that could be happening. Shad do not have a swimbladder so they can and do make daily moves from shallow to deep. When they are shallow the shallow bass are more active. When the shad move deep the deep fish turn on.

X2 

[Sam]

Sent an e-mail to you. 

[lmoore]

The way I understand it is that the fish are not actually "moving" deeper or "moving" shallow.  I can't remember the exact number but I believe Bass can only change depth at a rate of 1-2 feet per day.  There are likely fish in both areas since not all bass move to deeper cover at the same rate after the spawn.  Some will be up in shallow cover all summer long.  I would guess that what is happening for you is that the fish are becoming active at different points in the day which gives the impression that they are "moving."

[gobig]

1.Shallow bass don't actually move deeper from shallow water in most cases. They can and do often move out to deeper water but stay shallow suspended over deep water. Making swim bladder adjustments takes a lot of time and energy so for the most part bass stay at the same depth during a day.

I have caught fish bouncing huds on the bottom in 40-50ft of water and they don't float in the live well. When these fish are hooked they generally shoot to the surface in a matter of seconds like a torpedo. So my question is do smaller fish take more time to adjust than bigger fish? I have found that fish which voluntarily come up in many cases have adjusted. And if they can adjust in a matter of seconds could they comfortably adjust over the course of an hour? What depth change requires major adjustment? Can a fish move from 3' of water to say 15' without major a adjustment? Most fish I have caught in 15' of water do not need to be fizzed when brought up. A lot of the water I fish is pretty deep and clear. When they are up shallow fish are pretty easy to spot. There is very little cover for these fish to relate to. If they stay the same depth suspended as they do up shallow why don't I see more fish roaming over deeper water?

[iceintheveins]

When it's cloudy the fish can hold shallow all day, and even if it's sunny and close to 100, they can also be shallow if they have some shade pockets or thick emergent weeds to hide in or under. Most all the time though, they will be shallow in the evenings and mornings, and slide deeper gradually as the sun brightens. I too think sunlight makes more difference in the summer and warmer times of year than actual water temperature. If you can't find shallow bass when it's hot, fish deep, or once again in shade or in thick weeds. Some of my best big bass action has been froggin' these weeds, or punching big plastics through the pockets or right in the weeds.

[rebeav]

So when should the topic of thermocline depth be discussed?

[Paul Roberts]

1.Shallow bass don't actually move deeper from shallow water in most cases. They can and do often move out to deeper water but stay shallow suspended over deep water. Making swim bladder adjustments takes a lot of time and energy so for the most part bass stay at the same depth during a day.

I have caught fish bouncing huds on the bottom in 40-50ft of water and they don't float in the live well. When these fish are hooked they generally shoot to the surface in a matter of seconds like a torpedo. So my question is do smaller fish take more time to adjust than bigger fish? I have found that fish which voluntarily come up in many cases have adjusted. And if they can adjust in a matter of seconds could they comfortably adjust over the course of an hour? What depth change requires major adjustment? Can a fish move from 3' of water to say 15' without major a adjustment? Most fish I have caught in 15' of water do not need to be fizzed when brought up. A lot of the water I fish is pretty deep and clear. When they are up shallow fish are pretty easy to spot. There is very little cover for these fish to relate to. If they stay the same depth suspended as they do up shallow why don't I see more fish roaming over deeper water?

Really good observations and questions. I'll offer my understanding at this point:

It's not definitively known how rapidly bass can adjust to depth change. The best educated guesses so far (based on studies on other physoclistus -closed bladder- fishes) is that bladder adjustment is about a foot or two per hour -if they decide to make such a change. It may be energetically costly to do so, so it appears most bass do not do this often.

From angler observations via sonar, bass may make moves of 15feet quickly, say to smack a bait, but must return to acclimation depth soon. Short term changes of less than 10 feet are known for feeding bouts, but this would not be comfortable or energy efficient for a prolonged period. I've watched shallow buoyant hunters (I can see them finning to maintain position) drop out of sight, making a roughly 4foot depth change into cover, or into the gloom of depth. These were LM. From studies and angler observations, SM and SP appear to have more leeway in depth change than LM.

As to why you don't see suspended bass: Bass do not often like to be visible from the surface. When you see them they are either spawning, sunning (at times, but usually close to cover), or briefly exposed while feeding. When they were feeding up in the water column they were likely positively buoyant, afterwards dropping a bit deeper and becoming neutral again. It doesn't take much depth change to allow a bass to "disappear". They appear smaller with each inch of depth gain. And they are very well camouflaged. Amazes me how easily they can disappear when they want to.

As to 50ft catches that come shallow that don't float in the live-well. From what I understand at this point, that shouldn't be possible. Maybe large bass are more capable in this regard than is known, and those in your water's regularly make good use of this. I read one study in which yellow perch (physoclists) made nightly changes of 20feet. If the payoff can counter the effort/energy deficit, maybe it's possible. But another explanation might be the way sonar depicts discrete objects like fish. They are recorded on screen in relation to the distance from the transducer not necessarily their depth. A big hook at 50 feet might be 50 feet from the TD, but only 20feet deep, or much less.

[Randall]

1.Shallow bass don't actually move deeper from shallow water in most cases. They can and do often move out to deeper water but stay shallow suspended over deep water. Making swim bladder adjustments takes a lot of time and energy so for the most part bass stay at the same depth during a day.

I have caught fish bouncing huds on the bottom in 40-50ft of water and they don't float in the live well. When these fish are hooked they generally shoot to the surface in a matter of seconds like a torpedo. So my question is do smaller fish take more time to adjust than bigger fish? I have found that fish which voluntarily come up in many cases have adjusted. And if they can adjust in a matter of seconds could they comfortably adjust over the course of an hour? What depth change requires major adjustment? Can a fish move from 3' of water to say 15' without major a adjustment? Most fish I have caught in 15' of water do not need to be fizzed when brought up. A lot of the water I fish is pretty deep and clear. When they are up shallow fish are pretty easy to spot. There is very little cover for these fish to relate to. If they stay the same depth suspended as they do up shallow why don't I see more fish roaming over deeper water?

Really good observations and questions. I'll offer my understanding at this point:

It's not definitively known how rapidly bass can adjust to depth change. The best educated guesses so far (based on studies on other physoclistus -closed bladder- fishes) is that bladder adjustment is about a foot or two per hour -if they decide to make such a change. It may be energetically costly to do so, so it appears most bass do not do this often.

From angler observations via sonar, bass may make moves of 15feet quickly, say to smack a bait, but must return to acclimation depth soon. Short term changes of less than 10 feet are known for feeding bouts, but this would not be comfortable or energy efficient for a prolonged period. I've watched shallow buoyant hunters (I can see them finning to maintain position) drop out of sight, making a roughly 4foot depth change into cover, or into the gloom of depth. These were LM. From studies and angler observations, SM and SP appear to have more leeway in depth change than LM.

As to why you don't see suspended bass: Bass do not often like to be visible from the surface. When you see them they are either spawning, sunning (at times, but usually close to cover), or briefly exposed while feeding. When they were feeding up in the water column they were likely positively buoyant, afterwards dropping a bit deeper and becoming neutral again. It doesn't take much depth change to allow a bass to "disappear". They appear smaller with each inch of depth gain. And they are very well camouflaged. Amazes me how easily they can disappear when they want to.

As to 50ft catches that come shallow that don't float in the live-well. From what I understand at this point, that shouldn't be possible. Maybe large bass are more capable in this regard than is known, and those in your water's regularly make good use of this. I read one study in which yellow perch (physoclists) made nightly changes of 20feet. If the payoff can counter the effort/energy deficit, maybe it's possible. But another explanation might be the way sonar depicts discrete objects like fish. They are recorded on screen in relation to the distance from the transducer not necessarily their depth. A big hook at 50 feet might be 50 feet from the TD, but only 20feet deep, or much less.

Just to add to Pauls great answer bass do have a way to compress the bladder to move deeper but it also causes them to sink so they would have to swim to stay off the bottom. All they have to do is swim downward against the bladders floatation until buoyancy is lost. I personally don't fizz fish but send them down with a weight until they sink which is the same thing as the bass swimming down. Also ultra deep fish from my own experience can and will make larger moves than fish in shallow water. The pressure must change much slower in ultra deep water. Also, the balance of a fish is connected to it's swim bladder so "not needing to be fizzed" and having a good balance and equilibrium to live and feed are not always the same thing.

[Paul Roberts]

Just to add to Pauls great answer bass do have a way to compress the bladder to move deeper but it also causes them to sink so they would have to swim to stay off the bottom. All they have to do is swim downward against the bladders floatation until buoyancy is lost. I personally don't fizz fish but send them down with a weight until they sink which is the same thing as the bass swimming down. Also ultra deep fish from my own experience can and will make larger moves than fish in shallow water. The pressure must change much slower in ultra deep water. Also, the balance of a fish is connected to it's swim bladder so "not needing to be fizzed" and having a good balance and equilibrium to live and feed are not always the same thing.

Interesting.

As to the difference in pressure change as depth increases: I've actually seen numbers put to this, essentially showing the range of vertical movement for fish to be greater when deeper than when closer to the surface.

Here's a cool vid I saw that, in my mind, shows negative, then neutral, buoyancy in a feeding bass:

It opens with a bass that appears to be sinking, and finning to hold its position. I thought, "It's negatively buoyant. It's dropped below its acclimation level." After the bass captures the craw the diver releases, the bass swims straight up, toward its acclimation level. At 0.45 in the vid -the very last view of the bass -it appears to lay out horizontal and stop finning. Wish they cameraman followed the fish just a bit longer. Note how deep the feeding diver was in relation to the bass' final destination.

I believe what this is what we're seeing in this vid. I think that's pretty cool to see, and may say something about the relatively narrow band of water bass tend to live in most of the time.

[Raul]

The air bladder is connected to the exterior though the pneumatic duct, the fish only needs to burp the excess gas, that doesn 't require a lot of energy to perform. The problem with deep caught fish is that the gas inside the bladder expands at a high speed, once expanded it compresses and closes the pneumatic duct, the fish can not expel the gas, reason why it bloats.

[NateFollmer]

The air bladder is connected to the exterior though the pneumatic duct, the fish only needs to burp the excess gas, that doesn 't require a lot of energy to perform. The problem with deep caught fish is that the gas inside the bladder expands at a high speed, once expanded it compresses and closes the pneumatic duct, the fish can not expel the gas, reason why it bloats.

Good point. But does this mean it take more energy (or time) for a deep fish to come shallow (by their own means, not from being caught)?

[Paul Roberts]

The air bladder is connected to the exterior though the pneumatic duct, the fish only needs to burp the excess gas, that doesn 't require a lot of energy to perform. The problem with deep caught fish is that the gas inside the bladder expands at a high speed, once expanded it compresses and closes the pneumatic duct, the fish can not expel the gas, reason why it bloats.

Actually, there are two basic bladder structure types in our freshwater fishes: physoclistus (closed off from the mouth) and physostomous (with a duct connected to the mouth). The latter can burp gas, and change depth quickly. Physoclists, such as bass and yellow perch, cannot do this. They must exchange gasses through the blood, via the rete mirabilis (a vascular structure), and this takes some time. Researchers have commented that it's a remarkably efficient system, but nothing like that of physostomes -like trout, stripers, and shad.

[Nitrofreak]

Here are three facts about bass to help with understanding the myths about them moving first.

1.Shallow bass don't actually move deeper from shallow water in most cases. They can and do often move out to deeper water but stay shallow suspended over deep water. Making swim bladder adjustments takes a lot of time and energy so for the most part bass stay at the same depth during a day.

2. Daily bass movement in most cases has almost nothing to do with temperature.

3.Fish may not have eyelids but they have no problems with bright sun in shallow water and will not go blind.

Here is just one thing that could be happening. Shad do not have a swimbladder so they can and do make daily moves from shallow to deep. When they are shallow the shallow bass are more active. When the shad move deep the deep fish turn on.

I had read an article from a Rodger Lee Brown ie...The Bass Coach.

This article comes from his years of experience with bass fishing and I believe it to be a true statement about the fish going blind.

I am in no means trying to start an argument here I am just simply looking for an answer and since you have been posting a long time I am curious as to how you know they don't go blind.

I have hauled in some blinded bass before, Is this due a birth defect?

Some have been blind only in one eye and others have been blind in both eyes although the ones with both eyes have been few and far between I am confused to say the least as to what the correct answer is here.

[Randall]

Here are three facts about bass to help with understanding the myths about them moving first.

1.Shallow bass don't actually move deeper from shallow water in most cases. They can and do often move out to deeper water but stay shallow suspended over deep water. Making swim bladder adjustments takes a lot of time and energy so for the most part bass stay at the same depth during a day.

2. Daily bass movement in most cases has almost nothing to do with temperature.

3.Fish may not have eyelids but they have no problems with bright sun in shallow water and will not go blind.

Here is just one thing that could be happening. Shad do not have a swimbladder so they can and do make daily moves from shallow to deep. When they are shallow the shallow bass are more active. When the shad move deep the deep fish turn on.

I had read an article from a Rodger Lee Brown ie...The Bass Coach.

This article comes from his years of experience with bass fishing and I believe it to be a true statement about the fish going blind.

I am in no means trying to start an argument here I am just simply looking for an answer and since you have been posting a long time I am curious as to how you know they don't go blind.

I have hauled in some blinded bass before, Is this due a birth defect?

Some have been blind only in one eye and others have been blind in both eyes although the ones with both eyes have been few and far between I am confused to say the least as to what the correct answer is here.

Bass stay shallow all the time with bright sun in ponds where I used to observe and study bass. I had a pond with an overhead walkway which allowed me to constantly watch bass movement. My observations just don't support the bass moving up and down with bright sun.

Also I have studied all I could find about bass eyesight. Bass can adjust their rods and cones and use pigments in their eyes to adapt to different light levels.

I have also studied how light penetrates water, transfers heat, etc. Water acts as a pair if sunglasses. It reflects a lot if light at the surface and scatters most of the rest.

Bass can go blind from lots of things but just not from living shallow.

[Nitrofreak]

Thanks that is what I was looking for I appreciate the info!!

[tennsopher]

Here are three facts about bass to help with understanding the myths about them moving first.

1.Shallow bass don't actually move deeper from shallow water in most cases. They can and do often move out to deeper water but stay shallow suspended over deep water. Making swim bladder adjustments takes a lot of time and energy so for the most part bass stay at the same depth during a day.

2. Daily bass movement in most cases has almost nothing to do with temperature.

3.Fish may not have eyelids but they have no problems with bright sun in shallow water and will not go blind.

Here is just one thing that could be happening. Shad do not have a swimbladder so they can and do make daily moves from shallow to deep. When they are shallow the shallow bass are more active. When the shad move deep the deep fish turn on.

x3