Misinformation

[Paul Roberts]

I don't know the evolutionary history of centrarchids. Probably adaptation from SW occurred earliest. There's expertise out there though. I did see something a few months ago on bigindianabass.com. The bibliography from that piece of research would put someone interested on the right track. I'm sure it's an interesting story.

[Goose52]

I don't mean that N LM are rare in S CA, but that N LM that long -27"+ are rare fish -even in S CA.

Will be interesting to hear from others, but I consider N LM in the N to top out at 23-24". I've heard of a couple 25ers, but those are freaks, or as you've rightfully mentioned Tom, that measuring accuracy is likely at play.

Would love to know more about how long N LM can get in different areas. I've personally held a 23" (7+lb) form NYS. I've seen a 25" in the IF Master Angler awards -from MA I believe. What have you guys seen?

Paul, I don't know how far north you have to be to be considered "north" (I expect farter north than I am) but our lakes do freeze over in the winter here and we do have about 3 months of winter weather. Anyway, the bass in the photo was 7-12 and 26" - length was by the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency measuring method of from closed mouth to closed tail. This was a skinny, and probably old, fish.

[J Francho]

I don't know the evolutionary history of centrarchids. Probably adaptation from SW occurred earliest. There's expertise out there though. I did see something a few months ago on bigindianabass.com. The bibliography from that piece of research would put someone interested on the right track. I'm sure it's an interesting story.

Send me a link, I've got some time between reels tonight.

I would look at it the same as smoltification in rainbow trout.  Simple access to certain dietary and environmental differences cause a physiological change in the fish.

[Paul Roberts]

I don't mean that N LM are rare in S CA, but that N LM that long -27"+ are rare fish -even in S CA.

Will be interesting to hear from others, but I consider N LM in the N to top out at 23-24". I've heard of a couple 25ers, but those are freaks, or as you've rightfully mentioned Tom, that measuring accuracy is likely at play.

Would love to know more about how long N LM can get in different areas. I've personally held a 23" (7+lb) form NYS. I've seen a 25" in the IF Master Angler awards -from MA I believe. What have you guys seen?

Paul, I don't know how far north you have to be to be considered "north" (I expect farter north than I am) but our lakes do freeze over in the winter here and we do have about 3 months of winter weather. Anyway, the bass in the photo was 7-12 and 26" - length was by the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency measuring method of from closed mouth to closed tail. This was a skinny, and probably old, fish.

Hey Goose. That's what I'd like to see -some input. I consider Tennessee south, but I don't know how that works biologically really.

Would be interesting to see the lengths of N LM across latitudes. Easy places to look would be state records and Master Angler awards, or other big fish records.

[Paul Roberts]

I don't know the evolutionary history of centrarchids. Probably adaptation from SW occurred earliest. There's expertise out there though. I did see something a few months ago on bigindianabass.com. The bibliography from that piece of research would put someone interested on the right track. I'm sure it's an interesting story.

Send me a link, I've got some time between reels tonight.

I would look at it the same as smoltification in rainbow trout. Simple access to certain dietary and environmental differences cause a physiological change in the fish.

http://www.bigindianabass.com/big_indiana_bass/research/page/5/

Scroll to: Living the Good Life, For the Past 20 Million Years

This may or may not get you to the right line of research, and researcher's. Also Google:

Micropterus phylogeny / evolution / speciation

Problem is, you'll get a lot of abstracts and not full text or biblio. But sometimes you can get them.

Enjoy your reading.

[Paul Roberts]

John, Just to be clear: Yes there is a notable diff between smallies in current and those in lakes. Ralph's thought was that smallies are ancestrally river fish, as are spots, and he wondered if the ability of SM to pack it on was an artifact of their riverine physiology put in a lentic environment.

That goes against the conventional wisdom that Centrarchids are secondary freshwater fish, meaning they descended from ocean dwellers. I'd say river life was a more recent adaptation.

I assume, but dunno, that most if not all FW fishes we have came from SW stock -but at different times. Centrarchids are one of the most recent though. Will be curious what you find out.

Here's a pic I found https://webspace.utexas.edu/dib73/TheBolnickLab/page1/page18/page18.html :

The continents were pretty much as we see them today (tectonically) so we have to go back earlier. Some older lineages like Esocids are far older and go back to Eurasian stocks in the fossil record. But even then, the continents were not enormously different.

Here's another:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Zo47TI_UUSsC&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=Centrarchid+Eocene+Montana+fossil&source=bl&ots=PvtjrVevzU&sig=TKyow_rrYvTjczp9vx_o3AYjLLA&hl=en&ei=DR_SS6qbL4vctgOx9ozMCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Centrarchid%20Eocene%20Montana%20fossil&f=false

Seems the earliest Centrarchid fossils come from the late Oligocene in Montana. At that time there was a sea running N-S. (My son and I have collected fossils of sea life here on the CO plains.) That earliest known Centrachid looks a lot like a crappie, which fits the diagram above.

Are we sufficiently off-topic yet???

Back to it: Regardless, our "basses" came much later and smallmouth are considered to have been a riverine species, according to Ralph. Maybe that's why they are more apt to get "square". That was his conjecture.

[J Francho]

8-10, from Mass.

[Paul Roberts]

Wow! Beautiful fish too. One of those NE monsters.

[J Francho]

Yeah, I love spring bass, the markings are so pure, and the perfect finnage is something!

Another whopper, this time from Candy in Conn - Pat X caught an 8-5 to win lunker bonus.  I'll try to find a picture.

[FishinBama]

I've seen the same sort of thing on the New River, as compared to one of the great lakes.  We caught smallies last year that were pushing 21 inches, but only weighed about 3.5 - 4lbs.  A 21 incher from Erie would most likely be a completely disgusting looking pig.

[Paul Roberts]

Yeah, I love spring bass, the markings are so pure, and the perfect finnage is something!

Another whopper, this time from Candy in Conn - Pat X caught an 8-5 to win lunker bonus. I'll try to find a picture.

Yeah, another coastal whopper. I think if most CO anglers ever actually saw an 8lber they'd need surgery to put their eyeballs back in their sockets.

There's big, then there's BIG, and then there's BIG, and then there's ...

The last categories apply to the CA, TX, FL, and JP, or uniquely managed waters.