A Change to Big Bait Tactics???

[BigEbass]

I am glad to see some positive response on the topic. My intention was not to high jack the other thread. I just saw you asking questions that I asked myself before I started throwing big baits and the two Bills as I call them have changed the way I fish and think about fishing. I just want to share what I have learned. If you take the red pill your fishing world will change as you know it.

By the way I have to give Mattlures a little plug. You have top notch customer service and that ultimate gill is a killer bait (bed fish hate it). I can't wait to try out your new trout bait.

Love the matrix reference  - call me neo man  8-) - now if only you could just plug that wire into my brain and I would already have the knowledge and skill  ;D

Although somehow I think it would then lack the luster and specialness - I put 7 years of hard work into becoming a healthcare professional - I will use that same dedication to catching big bass - of course it will be purely for my personal enjoyment!!

On that note - I dont have a friend to fish this with - my neighbor is my only fishing buddy - somehow I dont meet many people my age who fish like a mad man all day like I enjoy doing - perhaps I need to join some bass club locally or something I dont know....It would be nice to meet someone either to mentor me in this area or to take on the challenge with me - but I imagine finding people in my area to do what it takes in these beginning months or year or so - that is to get skunked a bunch perhaps IN THE BEGINNING - they may not want to do that - I will have to go all lone wolf, which I am cool with - I still will fish with my neighbor, but he already has little interest in this area - but he may ride with me on days while I am learning I am sure

[BigEbass]

I'll preface my opinion with a statement that 80-90 percent of my bass fishing is for smallmouth. I have found that bigger baits are more effective for bigger fish. No bait is two big for bass as most musky fisherman will attest to the statement that their biggest bass ever caught was while musky fishing with BIG baits, 8 to 12 inches in length. My favorite hard bait for smallies is 6 inches in length. Larger baits do discourage smaller fish & increase your size caught. But as Mattlures pointed out you have to be aware when the big bait bite is not working & change tactics. Conversely I have caught some of my best fish on small baits but that is not the norm.

Encouraging to hear - although as I said, I am really not sure yet of the "conditions" that will work or not work for big baits....perhaps Bill Murphy's book will allude to this - or perhaps you all just mean on the water experience will dictate...

[gobig]

Consistently catching bass of any size first takes a body of water that holds a decent population of bass.

You will need to understand what structure is, how to truly identify it, read it, and then fish it effectively. Add to structure an understanding of availible cover and how it forms breaks and break lines.

You will need to understand the relationship between bass and their prey and how both relate to structure and cover.

Knowing how to adjust to changing weather condition; 80% of my fishing is on days with less the ideal conditions.

Once you understand structure/cover, bass/prey, and weather conditions lure selection becomes easier.

BINGO

[Catt]

While your enthusiasm is great but that and swim baits alone will not put bigger bass in the boat, how well do you know your local big bass lake.

You appear to be missing what Matt and Randall both said swim baits are but part of the equation.

I doubt very seriously Siemantel or KVD meant one should totally ignore weather patterns and their effects on the location or mood of bass.

[gobig]

You appear to be missing what Matt and Randall both said swim baits are but part of the equation.

The question was posed to Bill Siemantel and Mike Jones (the coauthor of the BBZ).

If there is one thing I should know about throwing swimbaits what is it?

The answer: When not to throw them.

I doubt very seriously Siemantel or KVD meant one should totally ignore weather patterns and their effects on the location or mood of bass.

What Siemantel advocates is not letting the weather,the moon phase or any other condition dictate weather or not you go fishing. I do not think he rules out the effect a particular condition can have.

The BBZ motto is everything matters yet nothing matters. The more you fish big baits the more you will see big fish defy traditional thinking. They get big for a reason.

[BigEbass]

You appear to be missing what Matt and Randall both said swim baits are but part of the equation.

The question was posed to Bill Siemantel and Mike Jones (the coauthor of the BBZ).

If there is one thing I should know about throwing swimbaits what is it?

The answer: When not to throw them.

I doubt very seriously Siemantel or KVD meant one should totally ignore weather patterns and their effects on the location or mood of bass.

What Siemantel advocates is not letting the weather,the moon phase or any other condition dictate weather or not you go fishing. I do not think he rules out the effect a particular condition can have.

The BBZ motto is everything matters yet nothing matters. The more you fish big baits the more you will see big fish defy traditional thinking. They get big for a reason.

Strange that their book (BBZ) doesnt mention when NOT to throw them - at least I do not recall that section.

Pardon my mispeak - I didnt mean to ignore weather - but they both (KVD and siemantel) agree it is overplaid by people I think - that is that people plan outings by weather conditions.  BBZ did not go into alot of detail about weather conditions effects on bass locations really - although I suppose Siemantel takes it into consideration, as would I if needed.  Although KVD's book as I recall seemed to state that after a cold front for example, you just might still catch em in the exact same spot you did the day before - but sometimes perhaps not.  After reading BBZ, my impression about locating bass was simply to get to know all the structure and fish the entire water column on these likely bass hangouts till you hookup and establish a "milk run"??? 

How much do I know my own lakes....not intimately for sure - until this year I had mostly tagged along with my more experienced neighbor who knows the areas of the lakes pretty well - vs me - I barely know my way around at this point - I have now this year gotten out a few times on lay lake and found the fish - but certainly I am in the phase very much of learning and searching out these key structure - spots - and spot on spot locations - I just bought the HB 998 and got contour maps with it so I will be planning my outings from here on out and paying close attention to structure, cover, and if I find fish etc...

Point is I still am a newB and a part of my question that I left out for all of you more experienced folk is to ask simply if going to swimbaits in my situation will be skipping ahead - I figured its just another type of bait that I will learn to use and get the feel for and if applied and used in the right conditions (which I am still not quite clear on really) I hope to catch the big uns....

[BigEbass]

While your enthusiasm is great but that and swim baits alone will not put bigger bass in the boat, how well do you know your local big bass lake.

You appear to be missing what Matt and Randall both said swim baits are but part of the equation.

I doubt very seriously Siemantel or KVD meant one should totally ignore weather patterns and their effects on the location or mood of bass.

Dont get me wrong, I am not trying to say I will simply thrown one of these baits sporadically in any given direction without any regard for all of these issues - I just am trying to decide if throwing these baits at humps, drop offs, points, creekbeds, etc...instead of my usual offerings or to what extent of my time I will do so - I am really just trying to figure out exactly how this big bait tactic will fall into my current fishing, taking into account all that has been discussed and the fact that I have only been fishing for a couple years so far....I am an open book still yet...

[Mattlures]

gobig thanks for props!

as for skipping ahead, There a re couple ways to llok at it. As RW stated it could be difficult to get the reults you want with only a little time on the water. But you can still learn.

Another way to look at it is, It's easier to teach somebody something totaly new then it is to break somebody of old habbits and then reteach them.

Basicaly the answer you are searching for is, Yes it can be done by you in your lakes. It most likely will not come easy or fast. it all depends on how much feedback you get while fishing and how you learn from it. Somethings I learned instntly and others took a while to beat into my head.

There is so much info out there it is very difficult to know what is bad and what is good. Guys like to sound like they know what they are talking about so you still need to question everything you read or hear. There is alot of general knowledge that can be used in many situation but there is also very specific knowledge that may only be useful on one lake or even one spot.

For instance. I have a consistant swimbait bite on one lake at one spot. Late spawn or post spawn, mid afternoon when the wind picks up and makes a good chop I can go to this spot and get a few bites about 50% of the time. These are big bites and at least half the time one is over ten lbs. So I have about 1 in 4 chances of getting a 10+ when these conditions happen.

I also like my chances a little better when the weather is not so pretty.

[BigEbass]

gobig thanks for props!

as for skipping ahead, There a re couple ways to llok at it. As RW stated it could be difficult to get the reults you want with only a little time on the water. But you can still learn.

Another way to look at it is, It's easier to teach somebody something totaly new then it is to break somebody of old habbits and then reteach them.

Basicaly the answer you are searching for is, Yes it can be done by you in your lakes. It most likely will not come easy or fast. it all depends on how much feedback you get while fishing and how you learn from it. Somethings I learned instntly and others took a while to beat into my head.

There is so much info out there it is very difficult to know what is bad and what is good. Guys like to sound like they know what they are talking about so you still need to question everything you read or hear. There is alot of general knowledge that can be used in many situation but there is also very specific knowledge that may only be useful on one lake or even one spot.

For instance. I have a consistant swimbait bite on one lake at one spot. Late spawn or post spawn, mid afternoon when the wind picks up and makes a good chop I can go to this spot and get a few bites about 50% of the time. These are big bites and at least half the time one is over ten lbs. So I have about 1 in 4 chances of getting a 10+ when these conditions happen.

I also like my chances a little better when the weather is not so pretty.

That makes sense - I was not sure if a more "experienced" angler would be a better candidate to then take on big baits.  I suppose in my case it will be more difficult to take both learning my lake with big baits as well as gaining experience and confidence with big baits - but I think it will be worth it perhaps??

So what you are saying matt is that what conditions I choose NOT to use these tactics simply has to be verified by my experience alone for the most part?

I will keep reading and researching for the next month or so while I save and get my gear, we can keep talking about this - one of you folks suggested thebbz.com as well as a good resource....

1 in 4 chance of getting a 10 + lber - god man - I am freakin sold - perhaps those odds may not necessarily exist on my home waters?  But there is only one way to find out for sure right......

On a simliar question about clear water vs. less clear water regarding getting needed feeback from the fish...in my home waters the clarity down here is not that fantastic most of the time (depending on the location), although lewis smith lake has some really clear areas - I mention this cause even if I dont catch fish, seeing a giant follow will be awesome - but if I cant see a follow, it will be that much less feedback - how important is this feedback in progressing? I imagine that if fish are following, I may not see them at all many times, and then I think I am getting no where - I guess I will just have to remain vigilant in the beginnings.

[BigEbass]

"There is so much info out there it is very difficult to know what is bad and what is good. Guys like to sound like they know what they are talking about so you still need to question everything you read or hear."

That is always my concern online when reading of course....I do however want to learn the generalaties that will definately apply to any newcomer to swimbaits and other big baits to avoid absolute pit-falls that I may not even be aware of...with the time that I have, I want to use it as smartly as possible obviously.

Also, no one has mentioned these big tube baits....are they suggested by you all really - everyone has mentioned swim baits primarily....

[BigEbass]

I presume something like the 6 inch swimbait will be a good starting point....am I best to just stick with a few of these swimbaits to start with or try these big tubes as well - again, not sure under what scenario I would use one over the other exactly, but I presume I will have to see what works in my local water.....

So many questions - if you guys could care less, feel free to ignore....otherwise all of your help is mucho apreciated!

[fourbizz]

Forget the tube bait.

Get a mattlures hardgill floater, a 6" huddleston, and a 7" mission fish.

Fish the most prime structure your lake has to offer.

[BigEbass]

Forget the tube bait.

Get a mattlures hardgill floater, a 6" huddleston, and a 7" mission fish.

Fish the most prime structure your lake has to offer.

Great - thanks for the pointers - but why forget the tube bait? Does anyone else on here use and/or had sucess with the big tubes - I know in Bill S's book BBZ he used em??

On a related question too - smith lake nearby has some big striper too - will these swim baits sort of be a dual species lure for big bass and striper ?? that would be sweet - could catch big fish of multiple species perhaps

[Mattlures]

because tube baits are dumb  seriously, nobody I know uses them and I know some good fisherman, much better then me. If you must try them at least they are cheap. Go ahead and wait untill you actualy get on a swimbait bite and throw the tube. If it works then add it to your arsenal. But dont waiste all day throwing the tube.

Also on my 1-in 4 chance at a 10+, I only hit the lake a few times each year. I absolutley do not over fish the spot and I havent seen other guys doing the exact thing. I am sure if I tried it all the time my percentage would go way down.

[basspimple]

i myself am just starting to use swimbaits, though i havnt much funds. i have confidence in them now. i recently bought a five inch mattlures ultimate bluegill, and it was worth every penny. my fist bass of this year was taken off of it, a 4 pounder which is big for me. i would say go for it.

[BigEbass]

i myself am just starting to use swimbaits, though i havnt much funds. i have confidence in them now. i recently bought a five inch mattlures ultimate bluegill, and it was worth every penny. my fist bass of this year was taken off of it, a 4 pounder which is big for me. i would say go for it.

Hey, now we are talkin

Thanks for your testimonial man!

[Big Bait Fishing]

just go out and get a swimbait rod and a good reel and buy a couple of baits that won't intimidate you and go fish them !!! i throw swimbaits every time i fish , there are alot of days i get skunked on the big baits , but i do get good size fish on them , it is just up to you how much you get into it , me , i'm already there ... i pursue this lifestyle greatly !!! anyhow , you just have to do it , you can talk till your blue in the face about but you will never know till you try it. start with 6" hudds , matts hard-gill , tylures 6" kicker trouts , and maybe a 6" bbz . you can throw all of those on a flipping rod with 15-20 lb. line , so you don't have to invest that much right now , just stay away from crappy baits like castaic and reaction strike and you will be all right

[Bassin_Fin@tic]

No, I am not a big time swimbaiter and am just getting into big baits myself.Speaking of crappy baits.There is a reason why to stay away from these things when your talking bigger baits. Artificial lures are made and sold in certain sizes, normally very small compared to what bass actually feed on, because they are just that,artificial. In other words the larger the bait the harder it becomes to disguise it as something real or actual food. The flaws in the angler presentation and lure action become more easily detectable. The bigger the bait the more need there is for it to look and act natural.Throw in water clarity and it becomes more difficult to conceal flaws.Crankbaits for instance have a very unnatural action. A bass can easily eat a crank much larger than what we generally throw but from what I understand it would be very hard to make it look real enough to strike.Cranks are more reaction baits and the fish just sees something scurrying by and action erratic and they react on it.This is why we can catch them on some ridiculously large plastics as long as they are presented properly. Something as large as a big swimbait better look good in the water and it needs to move or act very naturally to get the best results.Its not a question of wheter a fish can eat a lure. These fish don't get big by running around chasing little glass minnows,tiny 2 inch shad,and insects all day.I get a kick out of people that think that anything larger than a crappie sized bait is just too big. A 4 inch+ jerkbait or topwater,no way man! A 12 inch worm? Your crazy! A 5 inch swimbait(Mattlures) ,you must be after a 15lber! :

[Triton_Mike]

BigEBass,  I'm not too far from you here in Atlanta.  I fish Lake Allatoona mostly, which ranks in the top 5 every year of the busiest corps of engineer lake in the US.  Heavy pressure, lots of tournaments due to it's proximity to Atlanta and lots and lots of small fish both spots and largemouth.  Here is what I have learned works for ME and my home lake.

For my home lake and if I want to catch the biggest fish in the pond for me bigger baits work better.  I've fished 5 and 6 inch baits till I am blue in the face. I get tons of fish but no heavy weights (based on what is in my home lake).  When you have alot of small fish like Allatoona you have to try to weane off the smaller fish to get to the bigger ones.  How many times have you reeled in a fish and had a much bigger fish following the fish you are reeling in?  By using bigger baits I have found that it helps weane off those smaller fish some.  It does NOT completely weane them off but it does help.  I've had clients and myself catch crappie on 8 inch swimbaits and I have gotten 1.5lbers on my 8 inch swimbait last week and I thought I had pine straw on my bait?  LOL. 

If I look at my catch rates over the years I have caught more bigger fish recently by throwing bigger baits than I have in the past throwing smaller baits.

Now if you fish small lakes or ponds that are loaded to the gills with big 8 to 10lb + fish I'm not so sure it matters what size bait you throw.  Your odds of catching a bigger fish go up dramatically just by fishing them. 

I have zero doubt that you can catch big bass and plenty of them on smaller swimbaits I got a whole photobucket account full of them.  But it's lake specific alot of times.  What works for one lake might not work for another and vice versa.  Oh and btw spots absolutely kill 8 inch swimbaits and to throw you for a loop I do fish trout swimbaits in lakes that have no trout and I have done well with them. 

A good way to start with swimbaits to get instant confidence is to fish them in a schooling situation.  Thats one of the best ways to catch a swimbait fish.  Guntersville is a great swimbait lake as well to cut your teeth on swimbaits.  It would also be a great lake to fish smaller baits on because it's slap full of 5lb fish. 

When I am fishing with swimbaits in my home lake I'm fishing for 1 or 2 bites.  Often times I have gone a month without a bite on big baits (I throw other baits as well).  By my lakes standard a 5lb largemouth and a 4lb spot is a fairly big fish and most times wins you big fish in a tournament setting.  I'm shooting for 8lbs + largemouth with a goal of a 10lb fish and a 5lb + spot with a goal of 7lbs.  Many say there isn't a 10lb head or 7lb spot in my home lake just to give you an idea of pushing the limits. 

It's will take some experimenting on your part to determine what works best for you.  Remember there are no rules in fishing and thats what I try to do when learning a new tactic.  Take everything I read with a grain of salt until proven by experience.  That way you don't brainwash yourself from really learning the tactic and over look things. 

I think it's great that your trying to learn new tactics especially swimbaits.  Big swimbait guys are a different breed of anglers and you got several of them on this post contributing. 

Good Luck

Mike

[avid]

I did find that switching to bigger baits increased the size of the catch, but in all honesty, not by much.

So then I went to "supersize" baits, like California sized swim baits, and caught nothing.

Now I fish what's proven on my lakes and what I enjoy.

I don't fish as much as I used to, but I have more fun than ever.

[roadwarrior]

avid,

I remember when you were looking for an 8.

That's been awhile and you have probably

exceeded that goal. So, what did you catch

your PB on and how big was she?

-Kent

[BigEbass]

just go out and get a swimbait rod and a good reel and buy a couple of baits that won't intimidate you and go fish them !!! i throw swimbaits every time i fish , there are alot of days i get skunked on the big baits , but i do get good size fish on them , it is just up to you how much you get into it , me , i'm already there ... i pursue this lifestyle greatly !!! anyhow , you just have to do it , you can talk till your blue in the face about but you will never know till you try it. start with 6" hudds , matts hard-gill , tylures 6" kicker trouts , and maybe a 6" bbz . you can throw all of those on a flipping rod with 15-20 lb. line , so you don't have to invest that much right now , just stay away from crappy baits like castaic and reaction strike and you will be all right

Awesome, thanks for the great advice - I will be in the market for some gear soon, so that will help.

[BigEbass]

No, I am not a big time swimbaiter and am just getting into big baits myself.Speaking of crappy baits.There is a reason why to stay away from these things when your talking bigger baits. Artificial lures are made and sold in certain sizes, normally very small compared to what bass actually feed on, because they are just that,artificial. In other words the larger the bait the harder it becomes to disguise it as something real or actual food. The flaws in the angler presentation and lure action become more easily detectable. The bigger the bait the more need there is for it to look and act natural.Throw in water clarity and it becomes more difficult to conceal flaws.Crankbaits for instance have a very unnatural action. A bass can easily eat a crank much larger than what we generally throw but from what I understand it would be very hard to make it look real enough to strike.Cranks are more reaction baits and the fish just sees something scurrying by and action erratic and they react on it.This is why we can catch them on some ridiculously large plastics as long as they are presented properly. Something as large as a big swimbait better look good in the water and it needs to move or act very naturally to get the best results.Its not a question of wheter a fish can eat a lure. These fish don't get big by running around chasing little glass minnows,tiny 2 inch shad,and insects all day.I get a kick out of people that think that anything larger than a crappie sized bait is just too big. A 4 inch+ jerkbait or topwater,no way man! A 12 inch worm? Your crazy! A 5 inch swimbait(Mattlures) ,you must be after a 15lber! :

Makes since Im sure - they can be finicky at times....I have been told by most so far so go for baits in the 20-70 dollar range - hudd and mattlures and bbz are frequently mentioned....thanks.

[BigEbass]

BigEBass, I'm not too far from you here in Atlanta. I fish Lake Allatoona mostly, which ranks in the top 5 every year of the busiest corps of engineer lake in the US. Heavy pressure, lots of tournaments due to it's proximity to Atlanta and lots and lots of small fish both spots and largemouth. Here is what I have learned works for ME and my home lake.

For my home lake and if I want to catch the biggest fish in the pond for me bigger baits work better. I've fished 5 and 6 inch baits till I am blue in the face. I get tons of fish but no heavy weights (based on what is in my home lake). When you have alot of small fish like Allatoona you have to try to weane off the smaller fish to get to the bigger ones. How many times have you reeled in a fish and had a much bigger fish following the fish you are reeling in? By using bigger baits I have found that it helps weane off those smaller fish some. It does NOT completely weane them off but it does help. I've had clients and myself catch crappie on 8 inch swimbaits and I have gotten 1.5lbers on my 8 inch swimbait last week and I thought I had pine straw on my bait? LOL.

If I look at my catch rates over the years I have caught more bigger fish recently by throwing bigger baits than I have in the past throwing smaller baits.

Now if you fish small lakes or ponds that are loaded to the gills with big 8 to 10lb + fish I'm not so sure it matters what size bait you throw. Your odds of catching a bigger fish go up dramatically just by fishing them.

I have zero doubt that you can catch big bass and plenty of them on smaller swimbaits I got a whole photobucket account full of them. But it's lake specific alot of times. What works for one lake might not work for another and vice versa. Oh and btw spots absolutely kill 8 inch swimbaits and to throw you for a loop I do fish trout swimbaits in lakes that have no trout and I have done well with them.

A good way to start with swimbaits to get instant confidence is to fish them in a schooling situation. Thats one of the best ways to catch a swimbait fish. Guntersville is a great swimbait lake as well to cut your teeth on swimbaits. It would also be a great lake to fish smaller baits on because it's slap full of 5lb fish.

When I am fishing with swimbaits in my home lake I'm fishing for 1 or 2 bites. Often times I have gone a month without a bite on big baits (I throw other baits as well). By my lakes standard a 5lb largemouth and a 4lb spot is a fairly big fish and most times wins you big fish in a tournament setting. I'm shooting for 8lbs + largemouth with a goal of a 10lb fish and a 5lb + spot with a goal of 7lbs. Many say there isn't a 10lb head or 7lb spot in my home lake just to give you an idea of pushing the limits.

It's will take some experimenting on your part to determine what works best for you. Remember there are no rules in fishing and thats what I try to do when learning a new tactic. Take everything I read with a grain of salt until proven by experience. That way you don't brainwash yourself from really learning the tactic and over look things.

I think it's great that your trying to learn new tactics especially swimbaits. Big swimbait guys are a different breed of anglers and you got several of them on this post contributing.

Good Luck

Mike

Man Triton - thanks so much for your in-depth in-sight - this site rocks!  I agree definately - I am sure out of all of my lakes in this area one of them will be very ameenable to swimbaits - but like anything else, I am gonna just go out with an open mind, throw my baits on good structure cover - and see what happens and see if I can figure out if big baits will fit into my arsenal - only my personal experience will dictate - but if you can do it, than I can too  (that is after I get more experience).

[BigEbass]

I will say this too.....I am also very certain huge bass can be caught on "traditional" tactics and I am not abadoning those - hell, I caught my first two 5+ lbers last month on a bright orange strike king trap - but if there is a strategy that gives an edge to produce larger bass more regularly with hard work, then I am going to investigate it and use it as part of my fishing tool kit - to what extent I do this....we will find out

No one type of fishing is "better" than another I would think.  And as I recall, Doug Hannon has caught a majority of his 9+ lbers on a 7 inch texas rigged worm (at least I recall reading that in an article?) - but the big bait stuff also looks to be very effective based on what I have been reading and talking to quite a great number of western and easter big bait guys who are having a ball catching 8+ and 10+ lbers year on year - so I am gonna give it a whirl.

That is not to say that many of you will do something different in your waters and be less effective....I am simply stating it seems like a fun way and effective way to fish for big bass, and why not try it