Fact from Fiction about Spray scents on Post below

[Catt]

Ok we gonna talk MSDS with an Engineer well alrighty then  

Botanical: Pimpinella anisum (LINN.)

Family: N.O. Umbelliferae

DOT Hazard Class Vessel & Air Hazard Class: Non-Regulated

Flash Point: 182 F Closed Cup

Extinguishing Media: CO2, Foam, & Dry Chemical

Special Fire & Explosive Hazards: None

Unusual Fire & Explosive Hazards: None

Potential Acute Health Effect: Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritate), of eye contact (irritate), of inhalation (irritate).

Potential Chronic Health Effects:

Carcinogenic Effects: Not available

Mutagenic Effects: Mutagenic for bacteria and/or yeast

Teratogenic Effects: Not available

Developmental Toxicity: Not available

Repeated or prolonged exposure is not know to aggravate medical condition

HMIS (USA):

Health Hazard: 2-Moderate

Fire Hazard: 2-Moderate

Reactivity: 0-insignificant

[Micro]

Playing devil's advocate here:

Isn't "oil" the carrier for the scent?  The scent isn't the oil, the oil carries the chemical that carries the scent.  Oil is used to prevent evaporation and being washed off too quickly by water.  If fish can't smell oil based scents, why can we?  

Some scents on the market seperate in the container and have to be shaken up before they are sprayed.   Presumably because one ingrediant is oil based, the other water based.

If a fish can't smell the oil, it should be able to smell the scent, unless the scent molecule bonds to the oil molecule preventing its reception - which I'm not sure happens.  

I don't use scents very often at all, and when I do, I don't catch anymore fish with them than without them.  

[Catt]

According to the Columbia Encyclopedia

Anise:  ([ch259]n '[ch301]s), annual plant (Pimpinella anisum) of the family Umbelliferae (parsley family), native to the Mediterranean region but long cultivated elsewhere for its aromatic and medicinal qualities. It has flat-topped clusters of small yellow or white flowers that become seed like fruitsthe aniseed of commerce, used in food flavoring. Anise oil is derived from the seeds and sometimes from the leaves. The oil, composed chiefly of anethole, is used in medicinal, dentifrices, perfumes, beverages, and, in drag hunting, to scent a trail for dogs in the absence of a fox.

According to The Scientific Literature on Selected Herbs, and Aromatic and Medicinal Plants of the Temperate Zone.

While the entire plant is fragrant, it is the fruit of anise, commercially called anise seed, that has been highly valued since antiquity. The delicate fragrance is widely used for flavoring curries, breads, soups, cakes, candies, desserts, nonalcoholic beverage, and such liqueurs as anisette and arak. The volatile or essential oil, obtained by steam distillation of the crushed anise seed, is valuable in perfumery and soaps and has been used in toothpastes, mouthwashes, and skin creams. Anise oil is sometimes used as an adulterant in the essential oil of licorice. The oil is sometimes used as sensitizer for bleaching colors in photography.

As a medicinal plant, anise has been used as a carminative, antiseptic, antispasmodic, expectorant, stimulant, and stomachic. In addition, it has been used to promote lactation in nursing mothers and as a medicine against bronchitis, indigestion and lice. Oil of anise is used today as an ingredient in cough medicine and lozenges and is reported to have diuretic and diaphoretic properties. If ingested in sufficient quantities, anise oil may induce nausea, vomiting, seizures, and pulmonary edema. Contact of the concentrated oil with the skin can cause irritation

Anise and oil of anise are generally regarded as safe for human consumption as a spice/natural flavoring and plant/oil extract (21 CFR sections 182.10, 182.20 [1982]).

[Guest muddy]

[

A couple of points here . I have been eating homemade biscotti since I was a kid ( 56 now) one of the main ingredients is ANISE, and to get a very stong Anise Flavor My great grand mother, and my grand mother and then my MOM would add ANISE OIL: Are you saying THEY WERE TRYING TO POISION US ALL THIS TIME

I use PURE (YES PURE) Anise oil on my plastics and have been for years. IT IS VERY POSSIBLE TO HAVE FISH TASTE ANISE: EMULSIFICATION , thats an water/oil mixture ( Ya Wanna Get more technical than that , we can) that many non soulable medications are mixed into to inject or ingest into the body . is one. SUSPENSIONS OF oil/water mixtures also allow deliver of oil soluable into the body AND THEY ALL CAN BE TASTED: AMOXICILLIN is probablly the most popular of these. It is possible to maniipulate oil born molecules into a water enviorment and rather common , for the purposes of making them ingestible.

There have been many days when the difference on the water was ANISE OIL, it is not coincidence it is not a BELLS AND WHISTLES KINNDA THING this is from years of experience, so I cannot accept this ANISE OIL IS INEFFECTIVE and FISH CAN"T TASTE OR SMELL IT LINE!

Polar bears are known to sniff out a few tiny parts/million of fish oil in water and swims somew distances to get it!

[Lightninrod]

I use Megastrike for its lasting properties.  On both soft plastics and hard(plastic, metal, or wood) baits, it lasts for days.  It also makes any bait slipperier and that makes for more effective hooksets, especially the larger the bait.

But.....................I loves me licorice.................. 8-)

Dan

[islandbass]

That is great info bobby! I learned all of this after reading The book Knowing Bass.

I appreciate the refresher.

[Bobby Uhrig]

Muddy, You are almost there on the concept or theory of using emulsification. Just we do things a little differently ,a little more high tech..You are on the right track.We do not patent our process because when you patent something "You tell the world what you are doing". Let them copycats spend the time, money and hard work like I did to figure it out themselves. It would give them a short cut to bringing a new product to the market.As for the anise oil stuff. There are so many better food subjects you can use than anise oil.Think about it!!!When I say that the anise oil cannot be smelled or tasted by the fish, its true and the reason that its true is because the people that are using it, are still using it in the "oil"form. They have not converted it over technology wise to the form you started to elaborate on.Correct???? A bass nor any other fish is going to come all the way across the lake or even ten or fifteen feet to a bait because it has MegaStrike or any other enhancer on it.It just dosnt work that way. The baits are often moved around or worked to rapidly for the fish to detect the enhancer. The one fish that actually has a shot at this is the catfish. I believe that to be true because or the vast amout of receptors in the mouth and all over its body. Pretty much a scavenger fish though.The more realistic we can make a bait look,act,swim,sound and taste like a real subject or prey, the better chances of fooling that preditor into believeing whatever it is eating is real.How many times has this happened to you guys-You pitch out a bait -worm,jig ect. You feel the bass pick up the bait . You react by setting the hook. The fish expels the bait and the bait comes flying back and hits your partner in the head.It happens.What happens realistically is the fishes natural defense system kicks in and tells the fish that whatever it just inhaled had no food value to it.FISH ARE NOT INTELLEGENT CREATURES-THEY ARE CREATURES OF HABIT AND CONDITIONING'Nature made them that way or they would eat things with no food value and become extinct as a species. When you are able to fool or trick the fish by sight,sound or action,the last part of the equasion is the taste.Its all a puzzle .Put the pieces together and you have achived your goal.To catch a fish or more fish.Buy using real foods as an enhancer-I believe your odds get stacked better in your favor.Adding one or two more fish to your livewell because of this is the differance between winning a tournament, cashing a check or getting a pat on the back saying see ya next tournament.Nobody remembers who finishes second at the Classic-except Jim bitter.Like I said.We are all friends here.We are not here pushing product or scaming anyone. Use something you have confidence in. By knowing the facts behind it will give you more confidence that it will help you catch more fish. Thats why we are here. Remember what I said"There are no stupid questions except the ones that arent asked"We will try to find all of the answers to your questions. That is what we do.We learn more every day. How we do that is opening our minds as human beings and as fishermen.Thanks -Bobby@MegaStrike

[Guest muddy]

PS no matter what you say the ITALIAN STRAIN of LMB like and can taste ZAMBUCCI

[jb_adams]

I have a "stupid question" about scents and gel scents in particular. I think it was "kickin bass" or something like that my buddy has laying in his boat. I put it on a jig & when I took the jig off later (after many casts), the gel stayed on the lure and had a gummy feeling and it caused the skirt to look like I put hair gel on the skirt (lack of better description). I had to wash the jig with soapy water to get the gel off later so the skirt would flare like it's supposed to.

Is that a common trait with gel scents? It's the only one I've ever used.

Anybody got an explanation for this? :question

[Siebert Outdoors]

Bobby,  thanks for the time in posting.

I agree with you on the taste and getting the fish to hold onto the bait a little longer.  

By knowing the facts behind it will give you more confidence that it will help you catch more fish.

I like proven facts.  Does Berkley have anything published on their findings or is it confidential.  

[islandbass]

Bobby, thanks for the time in posting.

I agree with you on the taste and getting the fish to hold onto the bait a little longer.

By knowing the facts behind it will give you more confidence that it will help you catch more fish.

I like proven facts. Does Berkley have anything published on their findings or is it confidential.

G,

You can read about this in the book titled, "Knowing Bass." The name of the author escapes me, but Bobby's comments about what the fish are capable of tasting are spot on with this book.  If I am not mistaken, the author also refers to Berkley's findings, but don't quote me on that part.

-Alex

[Catt]

Emulsification: to disperse (as an oil) in an emulsion; also: to convert (two or more immiscible liquids) into an emulsion.

An emulsion: ½ oz of 100% pure anise oil immersed in 8 ozs Fish Formula II or Baitmate

Anise oil of which this topic is about is an essential oil; an essential oil is any concentrated, hydrophobic liquid containing volatile aroma compounds from plants, which are called aromatic herbs or aromatic plants. They are also known as volatile or ethereal oils, or simply as the "oil of" the plant material from which they were extracted. This essential oil does not have the same properties as petroleum oil and will disperse in water which is way it can be used in foods.

Does anyone here actually believe Berkeley scientist would actually say or print anything that would not promote their product as the best available? The way they do this is to bad mouth their competition by saying bass will reject anise even going as far as stating it's poisonous. I've read the entire MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) and nowhere does it state anise oil is anything more than an irritate. The Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) sections 182.10, 182.20 plainly states safe for human consumption as a spice/natural flavoring and plant/oil extract

This is by no means an attack on Bobby or Megastrike but if you're going to use this tactic then use the truth.

[ABC123]

Anise is generally cut down with alcohol. Ususally about 60% alcohol to 40% Anise. This is why a bottle of Anise that you buy in the store does not freeze/gel up. This is also why you can put X amount of Anise in food and not have the irritant issues. Your only putting in 40% of what you think you are really puting in. The alcohol evaporates out of the food as it's cooked, the Anise, in pure form, is left. Anise will break down in water, if it did not, it would not be used for food. Without it's ability to disperse in water, it would stay in pockets and as you eat the food, you would take bites of food with little to no Anise flavor, and other bites would have concentrated flavoring. A swirl effect, in an even more simple form, it would be like eating marble cake. Some bites are more chocolate cake, some are more white cake.

[roadwarrior]

Does Berkley have anything published on their findings or is it confidential.

"Dr. Jones" is employeed by Berkley. His work is NOT peer reviewed and his "testing" cannot be independently confirmed because his data base and methodology are "proprietary." From a purely scientific stand point (as Lane has pointed out), Berkley's/ Dr. Jones' findings are purely speculation or more pointedly, promotional propaganda.

[Zel]

Someone had asked about an article by Berkley regarding smell and scent I think this is it:

http://bassbuzz.outdoorsfanmedia.com/br_news_article.asp?thecat=2&ID=43

Now it might just be an urban legend, but I was once told by someone (a chemist to be exact) that the Berkley Powerbait formula and Velvetta Cheese have something in common.

[Guest muddy]

Someone had asked about an article by Berkley regarding smell and scent I think this is it:

http://bassbuzz.outdoorsfanmedia.com/br_news_article.asp?thecat=2&ID=43

Now it might just be an urban legend, but I was once told by someone (a chemist to be exact) that the Berkley Powerbait formula and Velvetta Cheese have something in common.

LBH PUTS THEM BOTH ON HAMBURGERS

[Glenn]

Catt - great info on Anise and its consumption by humans.  We're talking fish here, however.  Totally different biochemistry.  While I won't get into some needless argument with you, and waste time searching the Web for some snippet of a quote taken out of context to make a point, I will go as far as saying it's possible Anise oil may not be good for fish if they ingest it.  I know garlic isn't good for them.  Besides, can't say I've seen too many Anise plants growing in a lake lately.  :

Not attacking you, just pointing out that what might be fine for humans, could be bad for fish to ingest.  It's similar to chocolate - you wouldn't give that to your dog, now would you?  It's toxic to them.  

Consider chocolate is to dogs as anise and garlic is to bass.

[Catt]

Glenn, while I respect Bobby and your option my problem is Bobby stated Would somebody please read a SDS (Safety Data Sheet) on pure anise oil. Not only have I read the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) but I to have used it daily in my career as a Manufacturing Engineer, I'm also very familiar with The Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). It's has been quoted many times that anise oil is a poison and bass will spite out any bait with this scent on it, first nowhere does any study show anise oil as a poison, secondly if anise oil is strongly rejected by bass why is it used through out the entire lure industry and why have thousands of anglers caught bass on lures with anise oil in them or on them.

Another quote taken out of contest is Oil molecules are much too large to fit into the chemo receptors of the fish. It would be like a tennis ball rolling over the top of a wine glass, this statement in its original was talking about petroleum oil but the part about chemo receptor of fish was added because it was a nice catch phrase.

As for Berkley and the book "Knowing Bass" by Dr. Keith Jones I refer you to roadwarrior's reply; "Dr. Jones" is employed by Berkley. His work is NOT peer reviewed and his "testing" cannot be independently confirmed because his data base and methodology are "proprietary." From a purely scientific stand point (as Lane has pointed out), Berkley's/ Dr. Jones' findings are purely speculation or more pointedly, promotional propaganda.

Finally Glenn yes I know how to search the Web to find verified, supported, proven, and accepted data, I'm an engineer and that's what I do.

[Low_Budget_Hooker]

Too much to say about nothin',...I'm sticking with cigar smoke  ;D

[frogtog]

Yep, I'm staying with my Pam cooking spray, it has worked all these years

so I don't see no need in changing now.

[T-rig]

I never used scents and I never will.

[Matt Fly]

I never used scents and I never will.

You don't wear no deodorants either?     Thats sad, I'm sorry, you can't get in my boat with your stinky ole self.    LOL

Cologne does help attract a nice one once in awhile.

Matt

[T-rig]

I never used scents and I never will.

You don't wear no deodorants either? Thats sad, I'm sorry, you can't get in my boat with your stinky ole self. LOL

Cologne does help attract a nice one once in awhile.

Matt

I don't need deodorant, my sweat smells like roses! ;D ;D

Besides, I don't want to fish with you anyway! ;D ;D

[smallfry]

"Dr. Jones" is employeed by Berkley. His work is NOT peer reviewed and his "testing" cannot be independently confirmed because his data base and methodology are "proprietary." From a purely scientific stand point (as Lane has pointed out), Berkley's/ Dr. Jones' findings are purely speculation or more pointedly, promotional propaganda.

I suppose that's the difference between "pure science" and "applied science".

Very few scientists in any field are self-employed, and many of them do not go through peer review.  That does not make their results "speculation" or "promotional propaganda".  If a tree falls in the forest and you didn't hear it, did it make a sound?  If George Richman hadn't died trying to copy Benjamin Franklin's lightning experiment would we still say that Benjamin Franklin performed a scientific experiment?  

Of course, the more info made public the more confidence one can have in the results, but in applied science the scientific process (not the peer review process) is often what separates "speculation" from hypothesis and theory.    

Secondly, if I remember correctly, most of what was in the book was about biology/physiology and subjects that have been covered in acedemic and gov. studies that usually are peer reviewed (and in some cases were even referenced).  For example:  he referenced a study that determined that pacific salmon could "smell" a mammal  in the water.  How much of that book was basic biology info was one of the things that surprised me about it.  Very little of the book was about how Berkley uses that knowledge.  While we may never see and may or may not beleive the test procedure and data of Berkley, there is lots of science in that book.

Thirdly, unless the articles in fishing mags I read were bogus, Berkley has made public some of their testing methods which could be duplicated if one chose to.   Not to mention at least one experiment whose method was detailed in the book (the one about crawfish shapes with different or no claws on them).

[Lane]

I have been asked to respond to this thread, since I am a scientist and member of the AFS, of

which portions of published transcripts were used by Dr. Keith Jones to pursuade readers to

believe his theories and purchase Berkely/PureFishing products.

Most active research conducted at the Pure Fishing facility is conducted on smaller hatchery bass,

reared in captive conditions. At this time there is no scientific research that proves that his theory

or that scents or attractants in general increase capture rates. FoodSource Lures and other companies

do incorporate an amino acid that is found in high amounts in gelatin based products and eggs.

This particular protein has been used to stimulate feeding behavior in certain species of fish UNDER

CAPTIVE CONDITIONS (this is a variable and an important one) Bass hunt primarily through sight, and that is a proven fact.

Anise oil is not a known toxicant to fish, other natural plant extracts are. Glenn is correct that garlic

applied externally can harm fish! Rotenone is a POWERFUL fish toxicant and is derived primarily from

the derris root but can be found in weeds from the eastern US. Smallfry there is a big difference

between theory and applied science. Most of us in the scientific community call it JUNK SCIENCE

when correct scientific method is not used in the application, or the abstract is not clearly stated.

Variables must be clearly stated as well.