Why do we still see vertical holds with large fish?

[roadwarrior]

There seems to be a discrepancy between

unsubstantiated theory and real life experience.

I think I'll go with Randall's observations as a

professional fisherman.

8-)

[Tin]

What's a bibliography?

[b.Lee]

Did anyone even read Hooligan's posted "evidence"? I have a feeling nobody actually looked at them because someone would have said something.

http://www.sdafs.org/tcafs/meetings/96meet/gillilan.htm

https://www.tntech.edu/fish/bass/

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/fish/Reservoir/blackbass/livebass2.pdf

None of these articles say very much about the physical handling of fish. They are mostly about managing dissolved oxygen content in livewells and during weigh-ins. NONE of them attribute deaths to holding fish vertically and the last one actually says: "GRASP FISH BY LOWER JAW ONLY, HOLDING THEM VERTICALLY"

Between those articles, the link about muskies, and the dead links, I'm not seeing a whole lot of evidence here at all.

I'm inclined to believe that the jaw thing is kind of in the same boat as the slime coat thing. I think one person thought "oh, well there are ways to handle fish that might be less likely to injure them" and then people talk about it and it spreads as if it is absolutely necessary to hold the fish like a baby and not to let anything touch it's slime coat unless it's a wet hand. In reality, I think both of these tips MIGHT be marginally beneficial to the fish, but not nearly to the extent that most people think. Bass are tough. I think it'll be ok if we don't handle them like newborn babies.

No one obviously read my post which was second. i commented on each link.

[Dan:]

Did anyone even read Hooligan's posted "evidence"? I have a feeling nobody actually looked at them because someone would have said something.

http://www.sdafs.org/tcafs/meetings/96meet/gillilan.htm

https://www.tntech.edu/fish/bass/

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/fish/Reservoir/blackbass/livebass2.pdf

None of these articles say very much about the physical handling of fish. They are mostly about managing dissolved oxygen content in livewells and during weigh-ins. NONE of them attribute deaths to holding fish vertically and the last one actually says: "GRASP FISH BY LOWER JAW ONLY, HOLDING THEM VERTICALLY"

Between those articles, the link about muskies, and the dead links, I'm not seeing a whole lot of evidence here at all.

I'm inclined to believe that the jaw thing is kind of in the same boat as the slime coat thing. I think one person thought "oh, well there are ways to handle fish that might be less likely to injure them" and then people talk about it and it spreads as if it is absolutely necessary to hold the fish like a baby and not to let anything touch it's slime coat unless it's a wet hand. In reality, I think both of these tips MIGHT be marginally beneficial to the fish, but not nearly to the extent that most people think. Bass are tough. I think it'll be ok if we don't handle them like newborn babies.

No one obviously read my post which was second. i commented on each link.

Yeah, that's true for the first batch of links he gave, but I was also talking about the second batch that was later posted.

[boneil]

sounds like you're arguing about global warming.some scientist say this while others say that. There may never be concrete evidence to prove one way or another. Personally, I think there is a higher mortality rate in bass that are kept and eaten.

[D4u2s0t]

I, like just about everyon else, have NEVER seen a fish die due to holding it by the jaw... i've seen fish die from being guthooked, held out of the water too long, dropped on the ground, thingsl ike that.  But never because it was picked up by the jaw. 

[Taylor Fishin 4 life]

so what do you do when your fishing by yourself and catch a monster how do you take a picture ???  and if holding bass by the jaw is bad Bill Dance has killed many of many of many farm raised bass  ;D

[Hooligan]

so what do you do when your fishing by yourself and catch a monster how do you take a picture ??? and if holding bass by the jaw is bad Bill Dance has killed many of many of many farm raised bass ;D

Actually I don't take pictures often.  They're just not important to me.

[RoLo]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see where this topic is worthy of four pages.

All of Mother Nature's creatures are built tough, there are no exceptions and no bad designs.

When I was young and naïve, I thought that flowers were delicate, and went out of my way

to handle them with great care, as if they'd break and die. But after watching professional florists

handle their bread-and-butter, I learned a great deal. They roughly manhandle plants

and flowers as if they were indestructible, and with no ill-effects.

The internal organs of all animals are well supported, and from every concievable angle

of centripetal force (gravity). We primates walk vertically all day long,

and then we lie down horizontally all night long. Our internal organs probably benefit

from different angles of circulation. Fish have evolved over the millenium to be adaptable

in both the hydrosphere and atmosphere. Fish instinctively know that their body movements

are much faster in air than underwater. For this reason, a hooked bass will leap out of the water

and into the air, then shake its head violently to rid itself of the foriegn object.

With no help from man, the fish is out of its natural medium and in a "vertical" position.

When they're sedated, elephants and rhinos can suffer from respiratory insufficiency,

but this is due to their enormous bodyweight, which can stifle their ability to breath.

However, this only takes place when the animal is sedated, lying on the ground, and "horizontal".

Roger

[Fish Chris]

for what it's worth, if anything.....

I always say, big fish (and all fish that you intend to release, alive and healthy) should be handled

>WITH COMMON SENSE< !!!

Don't torque the fish into an unnatural position by the jaw....

But also:

Don't keep the fish out of water for any longer than you absolutely have to ! Have your live well ready, or put the fish back into a large landing net, or whatever you have to do, to keep it submerged, while you get your camera and scale ready.

Also, be careful not to drop, slam, or bang the fish.

While handling it, try to anticipate any "freak out" of the fish, holding it as low as possible to the deck, in case it should get loose from you.

When I hear people wondering if they might have broke the fishes jaw, by holding it vertically, I'm always thinking, huh ?

I promise you that if you break a fishes jaw, you are going to know it ! You would feel it snap, and it would immediately distort, and not close properly. This is not something you will ever have to wonder about later.

It's kind of funny when somebody will see one of my horizontal big fish shots, and give me comps about how I was holding it, because even that fish was almost certainly pulled from the water, or net, by the jaw with one hand, vertically. It's very hard to do otherwise, when you fish by yourself.

Of course I've re-caught several of my big bass, that were previously handled this way, but even way more frequently, I've been back to those same areas, and sighted many big fish that I have previously C/R'd.... doing totally fine I should add.

Anyway, I totally believe that far more bass are killed by guys not being prepared, for what to do with a {big} Bass when they do finally catch it (mostly, by keeping it out of the water for too long) than by guys that carefully, gently held the fish by the lower jaw, with one had, for a short time.

Not to sound like a smart arse, but the fact is, the best way to prevent any possible injury to a fish, is to not stick a hook in it.....

And I don't think any of us would be willing to go that far

Peace,

Fish

PS, I was just flashing back to that 8.5 lb Smallie in my avatar, and remembering how much of a maniac it was ! After that shot, I was trying to get ahold of it in my live well, and it bit the heck out of my thumb ! Maybe the hardest bite (to myself) from any bass, ever ! I think it's jaws were fine !

Nothing like that channel cat did to my thumb, as a kid.... but that's a whole other story