Why do we still see vertical holds with large fish?

[Bassn Blvd]

The lake I fish holds at least 3 tournaments a month.  The weigh-ins are at the same spot and I would estimate 50-125 bass are released each tourny after weigh in and I have yet to see ANY bass floating belly up as a result of holding them vertical.  To me, it looks like holding them by their jaw horizontally without supporting the belly would cause more harm.

[Hooligan]

Okay, simple as this......

Trying to hold a big fish horizontal by the lip causes harm:

Holding a big fish vertical by the lip does no harm:

No, see, both of those holds are prone to cause a problem.  Simple physics would state that a vertical hold is placing the fish in a position that is unnatural in regards to anatomy.  They don't have anything to support internal organs in that manner.

A horizontal hold, as in the first picture, is prone to cause damage to the jaw and spinal column.  The fish is wholly unsupported in the rear of the body and belly. 

Move the hand that isn't on the fish to the belly, support it and take weight off the jaw and you've got a correct hold.

[Hooligan]

The lake I fish holds at least 3 tournaments a month. The weigh-ins are at the same spot and I would estimate 50-125 bass are released each tourny after weigh in and I have yet to see ANY bass floating belly up as a result of holding them vertical. To me, it looks like holding them by their jaw horizontally without supporting the belly would cause more harm.

That's sort of the point.  Correct handling.  support the jaw, the lower body, and you have a correct hold that's far less likely to cause damage and undue additional stress.

Also, in regards to not seeing belly floaters, there are many mentions of those fish that suffer from delayed mortality as being "sinkers."  It's referenced in one of the previous links.  Lastly, some of the mortality isn't immediate delay.  In cases it's a month or more. 

[fourbizz]

According to my fisheries biologist friend, who studied largemouth growth in school, and is a better big bass fisherman than anyone in this thread, vertical is fine.

That is good enough for me.

[Hooligan]

According to my fisheries biologist friend, who studied largemouth growth in school, and is a better big bass fisherman than anyone in this thread, vertical is fine.

That is good enough for me.

It's extremely easy to get into a he said, he said.  I'm not going to do that here. 

[fourbizz]

So, when confronted by facts and opinions contrary to your own, you are going to disregard them and continue spouting rhetoric?

[Mattlures]

Well that bottom pic was of Mike Long. Lets see he has caught about 60 over 15lbs and hundreds over 10. We never find any of his fish dead or hurt from him holding them like that. I also hold them like that and have never had a sigle problem. If we were killing all these fish from holding them like that we would find them. Actualy we do find them, when we catch them again.

I have also managed a few private ponds years ago. I have never killed a single fish from holding it verticle. As long as you dont tourqe the jaw the fish will be totaly fine.

[Taylor Fishin 4 life]

how is it tho if they claim they break the jaw then how is it when i release some of my fish 6 to 9 pounders that they seem the close there mouth so easily and swim off now mabye bass have super powers but how do they close there mouth again if their jaws are broken?

[cart7t]

I'm likely to keep my larger bass in a horizontal position after catching.

[Taylor Fishin 4 life]

rofl

[tyrius.]

No, see, both of those holds are prone to cause a problem. Simple physics would state that a vertical hold is placing the fish in a position that is unnatural in regards to anatomy. They don't have anything to support internal organs in that manner.

It may be unnatural, but how it is harmful?  It's unnatural for me to stand on my head, but I'm not hurt by it.

And what are you talking about in regards to "support internal organs"?  Why do they need to be "supported"?  A bass can easily swim vertically through the water to say strike a topwater lure.  If a vertical position was harmful to them then how could they swim that way?

[BigEbass]

It would seem we have reached an endpass IMO

On the one hand hooligan presents some data that would be a source of concern.

On the other hand, we have heard from folks like mattlures who deal with these giants really regularly it would seem - also I recently joined BBZ and all of those guys verticle hold at times it would seem including Bill Siemantel - although I dont think they torque the Jaw.  So alot of anectdotal evidence that is also compelling.

I too fish local private pay ponds with my neighbor regularly and have never seen one of or any of those fish die, and if they did I would think at least they would float to the top?

I can totally understand Hooligan's concern and if there is certainty about his concern then I will do whatever it takes - actually I did not know about the net studies, I prefer to net my bigger fish to avoid injury to myself and to avoid losing it at the boat - so that was good to know.

But am I not going to hold my fish anymore vertically....I am left conflicted here I suppose - usually I do not hold anectdotal evidence to the highest level, but if holding them this way caused a significantly greater mortality, I cannot see how that would be so frequently missed by the entirity of the fishing community?  Perhaps I am naive, but that point seems compelling....

But I will keep an open mind Hooligan and I appreciate your thoughts and concerns

[J Francho]

Impasse...

Personally, I think its all much ado about nothing.  I see guys doing things way worse to bass before releasing than holding them up by their jaw.  Besides, most catch dinks, and even my personal best is a dink by others' standards.  The shot of Mike Long with the vertical hold doesn't hurt them.  Plain and simple.  Nothing has been offered in this thread that clearly states otherwise.  Its one of those things....we've been catching and releasing bass for decades.  You'd think we'd see some real effects by now.  But we are still catching big bass.

[Matt Fly]

Cali boys gotta good point,   we saw Dottie hung by a rope with a big hole in her jaw, hung vertical on a scale many times and she survived all those years she was caught and weighed and photo graphed.

     I do think if you do your part and minimize the amount of time, you will be less likely to stress the fish.

    I don't see how it hurts to support the belly and take all precautions prior to weighin the fish for a few seconds.

    Bank fishing and walking makes for limited gear you can carry, you can only do so much to  be prepared for that day when you catch your PB.

   Do what you can when you can, thats what most would like to see when it comes to bass conservation.

[Hooligan]

So, when confronted by facts and opinions contrary to your own, you are going to disregard them and continue spouting rhetoric?

No, quite the opposite.  There was no factual basis there, unlike in the represented articles.

I also know a fisheries biologist or ten, some are close friends.  Every, single one of them would tell you that a vertical hold is incorrect.  Every one of them would recommend a horizontal hold with support for the front and belly.

In regards the the physics of why it's unnatural; a fish has different gravity in water than in air.  More pressure is placed on internal structures when held vertically than when they swim "vertically"  the water is a great deal of the way in which the form is supported.  Take away the water, and everything changes.

[Hooligan]

I'm likely to keep my larger bass in a horizontal position after catching.

I lol'd.

[bassman31783]

I understand your argument & wanting people to get on board by showing us "proof" of the mortality rates of fish held horizontally vs vertically. I also commend you on wanting to do something that "might" help the species as a whole. However it's just not going to sway many people. Especially when you have pics of these huge bass held vertically by big bass hunters & tournament pros. Better yet when you have multiple pics of Dottie being held vertically in pics over a span of years. Clearly it didn't hurt her getting held vertically multiple times & she was perhaps the largest bass to ever swim.

It's kind of like these TRUTH commercials to stop smoking. Although really good commercials backed up by broad facts, they just aren't going to make every smoker quite smoking by having a hundred people fall over in the middle of an intersection pretending to be dead. ;D

[Hooligan]

You know, the way I look at it is this, if one person changes the way they handle fish, or if one person even thinks of it, then it's worth the effort. 

I'm not trying to sway the masses, I'm not trying to make anyone angry, I'm not trying to call anyone an idiot or otherwise.  Heck, I'm not trying to do anything but to get people to think about it.  That's all.

I'm just as guilty as the next guy about not being perfect.  If I recall correctly, and I'm pretty sure I do, there's only been one of those guys in history, and it isn't KVD.

[bass syco]

if you are really, truly concerned about fish,

don't fish.

One less guy on the lake to me.

[Dan:]

Did anyone even read Hooligan's posted "evidence"? I have a feeling nobody actually looked at them because someone would have said something.

http://www.sdafs.org/tcafs/meetings/96meet/gillilan.htm

https://www.tntech.edu/fish/bass/

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/fish/Reservoir/blackbass/livebass2.pdf

None of these articles say very much about the physical handling of fish. They are mostly about managing dissolved oxygen content in livewells and during weigh-ins. NONE of them attribute deaths to holding fish vertically and the last one actually says: "GRASP FISH BY LOWER JAW ONLY, HOLDING THEM VERTICALLY"

Between those articles, the link about muskies, and the dead links, I'm not seeing a whole lot of evidence here at all.

I'm inclined to believe that the jaw thing is kind of in the same boat as the slime coat thing. I think one person thought "oh, well there are ways to handle fish that might be less likely to injure them" and then people talk about it and it spreads as if it is absolutely necessary to hold the fish like a baby and not to let anything touch it's slime coat unless it's a wet hand. In reality, I think both of these tips MIGHT be marginally beneficial to the fish, but not nearly to the extent that most people think. Bass are tough. I think it'll be ok if we don't handle them like newborn babies.

[SPEEDBEAD.]

According to my fisheries biologist friend, who studied largemouth growth in school, and is a better big bass fisherman than anyone in this thread, vertical is fine.

That is good enough for me.

LOL, SP doesnt know anything at all....dont kid yourself.   :

;D

[Hooligan]

The info from Muskies Inc deals with anatomy in general, it's a page referenced pretty heavily regardless of species.  You're correct about some of the others, it sort of got off on a tangent about handling in general, including delayed mortality due to inadequate dissolved O2, again, dealing with overall handling of the fish.  (The three that you referenced are part of that tangent.)

The Florida Fish and Wildlife page is an annotated bibliography sporting tremendous amounts of information on handling.  (as well as other subjects.)  The ShareLunker page is another that has various links including video of TFW's recommendations for handling fish.

It happens that you choose three that were on the subject but a different topic.

For the record, though the anatomy between muskies and bass are different, the end results are the same.

[Dan:]

The info from Muskies Inc deals with anatomy in general, it's a page referenced pretty heavily regardless of species. You're correct about some of the others, it sort of got off on a tangent about handling in general, including delayed mortality due to inadequate dissolved O2, again, dealing with overall handling of the fish. (The three that you referenced are part of that tangent.)

The Florida Fish and Wildlife page is an annotated bibliography sporting tremendous amounts of information on handling. (as well as other subjects.) The ShareLunker page is another that has various links including video of TFW's recommendations for handling fish.

It happens that you choose three that were on the subject but a different topic.

For the record, though the anatomy between muskies and bass are different, the end results are the same.

Says who? You still have provided no evidence that proves holding fish vertically is likely to hurt them. All you have provided is a couple links that say to some extent that it is probably best to hold fish with a hand under their belly. (BTW, one of those sources also says that fish should be sedated before being weighed....come on!)

It could very well be the case that holding a fish with a hand under it's belly minimizes stress, but even IF that is the case, I do not believe that the difference in the amount of stress caused to the fish is significant enough to even worry about it...Like I said before, bass are tough. If you really want to do all you can to prevent mortality, make a thread about ending tournaments. Oxygen depletion seems to be the most realistic threat here.

For the record, I would have examined the other links but two of them do not work (from the first post) and one is about muskies which have completely different anatomies so I'm not accepting that as relevant considering they have a completely different distribution of weight than bass.

[Randall]

I see and hold hundreds of fish like this every year on small lakes. Many of them are big fish and I have Never seen one harmed by it if the jaw isn't used as a lever.

I have found fish that died from an infection caused by a wound from my or others hooks. Fish that died from ingesting senkos and big worms. Fish that died from being in an improper livewell or a livewell that wasn't used correctly.

Also when I see big dead fish I usually go to check them out to see if I can figure out what killed them and if I can match it to a fish I have caught. The usual things that gets them is choking on a bluegill, a bait broken off , a senko, brush hog or big worm they can't pass or a hook left in after being gut hooked. But, I have never seen a fish with a broken or injured jaw. 

Also you should see how hard I will pull a fish across grassbeds in summer hooked in the lower jaw. Or, how hard I will pull a fish down if it tries to jump with my swimbait attached to it's lower jaw. If that don't break thier jaw nothing will.

The truth is I don't see anything to cause me to change my mind and until I do I will not change.  I think it's the best way to hold a fish if done properly. 

[J Francho]

If I recall correctly, and I'm pretty sure I do, there's only been one of those guys in history, and it isn't KVD.

Actually, that was his mother...Mary.