What they fail to tell you about cranking

[George Welcome]

For the most part you were not expanding on what Paul said, but rather disagreeing. That's fine. My question was meant to give you the opportunity to let these people know from where you were coming. We know that Paul is considered the Master of the crank bait in the fishing industry, and amongst his peers. I thought it would be good for you to add to your comments some background to your stated views. Sorry you took that negatively.

I particularly liked:

"Paul Elias: "I do a fishing school called In-depth Fishing."

Chris: I give the information freely"

Was this expanding on Paul's statements?

[Paul Roberts]

I once had a Prof tell me, when I had complained about working under an intense unfriendly biologist: "It's content, not style, that matters."

I had to wrestle with that idea, and still disagree. Content is delivered by style. And it does matter -if you are truly wishing to educate. Style can turn people on, or put people off.

[Chris]

I agree and I changed it. Thank you for pointing it out. I also changed around some of the post because I can see how someone could get the wrong impression.

[K_Mac]

Chris I believe your intent in this post is to share your experience and knowledge, and help others be better crankbait fishermen. I thank you for that. Crankbait fishing is an area of weakness for me, and I want to be better, so I read your views with interest.

I really like what Paul Roberts said about content being delivered by style. Great teachers are not always the greatest scholars, they are the ones who can communicate and share their knowledge effectively. Content is also revealed by context. When you use the context of Paul Elias said/I say, you're setting your views against his. You are not necessarily saying he's wrong and you're right, but in that context it can appear that way. When you do that with someone as respected as Elias you're going to ruffle some feathers. Just my opinion; it's worth what you paid for it.

[tyrius.]

So

1 computer with keyboard + internet forum >

Classic Titles: 1

Times in the Classic: 14

Times in the Money: 131

Total Entries: 291

Total Weight: 6,912 lbs 15 ozs

     Career Winnings: $817,545.75

Avg. Per Tournament: $2,809.44

Cash Winnings: $681,257.75

Merchandise Bonus: $95,000.00

Cash Bonus: $41,288.00

Excellent.

Following that to its logical conclusion we should all be following Clunn in using the same power and action rod and gear ratio reel for all of our fishing.

No?  His stats beat Elias's so shouldn't we all be doing what Clunn does?

Personally, I'll listen to anyone who seems knowledgable about a topic and will question what they say and see if it can be applied to making me a better fisherman.  Why else would you be on this forum?  Because we're pretty much all just "1 computer with keyboard + internet forum ".

[cart7t]

So

1 computer with keyboard + internet forum >

Classic Titles: 1

Times in the Classic: 14

Times in the Money: 131

Total Entries: 291

Total Weight: 6,912 lbs 15 ozs

     Career Winnings: $817,545.75

Avg. Per Tournament: $2,809.44

Cash Winnings: $681,257.75

Merchandise Bonus: $95,000.00

Cash Bonus: $41,288.00

Excellent.

Following that to its logical conclusion we should all be following Clunn in using the same power and action rod and gear ratio reel for all of our fishing.

No? His stats beat Elias's so shouldn't we all be doing what Clunn does?

You're not getting this. Elias' record is in the books. He knows of what he speaks, especially on crank bait fishing. If you're going to disagree with him and expound further with your own dissertation on the how's or why's of how to fish a crankbait, I'd like to know why I or anyone else should listen. So far I know Chris has caught a small bass on a crankbait as seen in his avatar. Anything else?

Personally, I'll listen to anyone who seems knowledgable about a topic and will question what they say and see if it can be applied to making me a better fisherman.

Some of the best liars are fishermen. Unless I have some sort of validation, I take anything I read anywhere on any internet forum with a grain of salt.

Why else would you be on this forum? Because we're pretty much all just "1 computer with keyboard + internet forum ".

This forum is a great vehicle for anglers new to the sport to learn. It can really cut the learning curve down. It has also been a great place to meet other fishermen to fish with either locally or through the road trip. This place is more than just a place to learn a new fishing technique or how this reel compares to that reel. I would hope those taking the time to question the opinions of a well respected Professional bass angler would also take the time to indicate what they've accomplished doing it their way vs. that of the Pro. If not, you wind up with anonymous posters named Bill, Bob or Frank throwing any sort of BS up that sounds reasonable without any sort of proof to back it up. Who gains from that?

[Gatorbassman]

Who has experience that is actually recorded means absolutely nothing to me. In the past several years Chris has taught me a large percentage of the things that I know about crankbait fishing. Paul Elias has taught me nothing because I'm not willing to pay for it.

The fishing industry will continue to shrink if people continue to try to sell their knowledge and others think that the only information worth anything comes from a select few.

[MyKeyBe]

Who has experience that is actually recorded means absolutely nothing to me. In the past several years Chris has taught me a large percentage of the things that I know about crankbait fishing. Paul Elias has taught me nothing because I'm not willing to pay for it.

The fishing industry will continue to shrink if people continue to try to sell their knowledge and others think that the only information worth anything comes from a select few.

Well said fluke. I've been listening to chris a lot longer than most here and I can tell you if chris is posting you better read and have an open mind. You WILL learn something.

[Michael H]

I think that without a doubt that Chris knows what he is talking about when it comes to crankbaits. If you take a look at the forums "best of" every post on cranks in there is from him.

http://www.bassresource.com/bass_fishing_forums/YaBB.pl?virboard=gen_bass;num=1253486034

[Grey Wolf]

Who has experience that is actually recorded means absolutely nothing to me. In the past several years Chris has taught me a large percentage of the things that I know about crankbait fishing. Paul Elias has taught me nothing because I'm not willing to pay for it.

The fishing industry will continue to shrink if people continue to try to sell their knowledge and others think that the only information worth anything comes from a select few.

Well said fluke. I've been listening to chris a lot longer than most here and I can tell you if chris is posting you better read and have an open mind. You WILL learn something.

I agree 100 %.

[Lund Explorer]

I think it would be a good idea to say that to Chris as well.  I'm sure its taken quite a bit of effort to put into writing all of the things that he has.

I for one have done the copy and paste to many of his writings so that I could print them out to read away from the computer.  Now you could say they have become the bathroom reader, but they have also given me the inspiration to double my crankbaiting efforts in the future.

He deserves a lot of credit for his efforts. 

[-nick-]

Who has experience that is actually recorded means absolutely nothing to me. In the past several years Chris has taught me a large percentage of the things that I know about crankbait fishing. Paul Elias has taught me nothing because I'm not willing to pay for it.

The fishing industry will continue to shrink if people continue to try to sell their knowledge and others think that the only information worth anything comes from a select few.

x2!

I have read many of Chris' post and have became a better fisherman because of them and I know from that alone that he knows what he is talking about and ANYTHING he posts is definitely worth my time. If personal experience with his previous information isn't enough to convince someone then I'm not sure what is. Great post Chris and don't let these other members keep you from posting stuff like this.

[Needemp]

I definitely agree with Paul more than Chris on this. The guy is an established Elite holding the BASS record for a 4 day tourney (which on the last day he used a deep diving crankbait). Outside of this forum, I have never heard of Chris (and pretty sure I never will.) Paul is on the record as a better fisherman and that alone is enough for me. But I read the rebuttals to Mr Elias and a lot of them aren't exactly accurate. Either way, it is interesting because I never read most of that stuff from Paul Elias and now I have.

[I Love BassResource]

"Who has experience that is actually recorded means absolutely nothing to me."

  Can't say I would agree with that.  In the event one's experience becomes record, it becomes fact, which removes speculation. 

  Just because Elias, KVD, IKE, or Clunn may have an opinion doesn't mean its an absolute.  Given their experience has been factually placed on record, this does add an element of validation that certainly isn't questionable when they do offer to comment.

  I see Carts point, very clearly.  When someone with no credentials wants to step in and clearly attempt to discredit the opinion of a highly decorated professional, it easily comes off as cheap comedy. In my initial read and in my opinon, there was no contrast of opinion, it was a pretty harsh point out of... Hey, Paul Elias is wrong.

[tyrius.]

You're not getting this. Elias' record is in the books. He knows of what he speaks, especially on crank bait fishing. If you're going to disagree with him and expound further with your own dissertation on the how's or why's of how to fish a crankbait, I'd like to know why I or anyone else should listen. So far I know Chris has caught a small bass on a crankbait as seen in his avatar. Anything else?

Again, if you put more weight in "records on the books" then shouldn't we be religiously following Clunn or KVD or Skeet?  Why would you care about Elias who wasn't and isn't as dominant from a tourney wins standpoint as the three mentioned earlier?

Some of the best liars are fishermen. Unless I have some sort of validation, I take anything I read anywhere on any internet forum with a grain of salt.

I'd agree with this, but would apply it just as much to the pro's as I would to anyone else.  Why would the pro's give out all of their secrets in a free interview?  If a pro can charge for a seminar then why would they give it away for free?  Wouldn't they have an interest is a little misdirection to protect their edge?

If not, you wind up with anonymous posters named Bill, Bob or Frank throwing any sort of BS up that sounds reasonable without any sort of proof to back it up. Who gains from that?

I do.  If the information is correct and relevant then it doesn't matter if it comes from Joe Schmoe down the street or from KVD himself.  I'm not going to poo poo someone because they don't fish professionally.

[cart7t]

You're not getting this. Elias' record is in the books. He knows of what he speaks, especially on crank bait fishing. If you're going to disagree with him and expound further with your own dissertation on the how's or why's of how to fish a crankbait, I'd like to know why I or anyone else should listen. So far I know Chris has caught a small bass on a crankbait as seen in his avatar. Anything else?

Again, if you put more weight in "records on the books" then shouldn't we be religiously following Clunn or KVD or Skeet? Why would you care about Elias who wasn't and isn't as dominant from a tourney wins standpoint as the three mentioned earlier?

Some of the best liars are fishermen. Unless I have some sort of validation, I take anything I read anywhere on any internet forum with a grain of salt.

I'd agree with this, but would apply it just as much to the pro's as I would to anyone else. Why would the pro's give out all of their secrets in a free interview? If a pro can charge for a seminar then why would they give it away for free? Wouldn't they have an interest is a little misdirection to protect their edge?

If not, you wind up with anonymous posters named Bill, Bob or Frank throwing any sort of BS up that sounds reasonable without any sort of proof to back it up. Who gains from that?

I do. If the information is correct and relevant then it doesn't matter if it comes from Joe Schmoe down the street or from KVD himself. I'm not going to poo poo someone because they don't fish professionally.

Not sure why you keep bringing KVD or Clunn into this. The poster decided to call out Elias and attempt to create the impression that he knows more than said professional bass fishermen. You're deflecting the issue here.

Again, what has Chris done in his fishing career that would make me believe anything he says?

I've been slinging crankbaits about as long as Chris has been alive, does that make me an expert?

Rather than write a standalone deep cranking post, he chose to drag Paul Elias into it. The thread title tends to make it seem as though Elias isn't telling everybody the whole truth in that little article linked even though that article doesn't claim to be an all emcompassing, in depth piece on every aspect of deep cranking.

His "I give information for free" was a cheap shot. He'd get paid to do it if he had the string of accomplishments that Elias has.

[Catt]

If we were to only listen to anglers whose experience is actually recorded then Glenn should close membership, have a read only web site where anglers submit articles for review and after validation it is posted.

To repeat what I said eariler "I fish a Texas Rig completely different than cart7t or Kevin VanDam so who is correct, only KVD?"

[Chris]

Had I known this post would have rubbed people the wrong way I would not have presented it the way I did and I am sorry. I know cart that my words and a little smallmouth are not that impressive. I am not a outspoken person who shows large catches on here or have an avatar holding up giants with a tournament shirt on. I am not one to have an ego or to look down upon anyone who is just starting on their bass fishing quest to learn. I many times take the time to answer questions on here that few want to answer from members. My post count next to my name I would guess 80% of them came from answering a new guys question and many of them where hard questions. If they where not hard questions they where basic mechanics questions that many felt to proud to answer or where beneath their skill level. I couldn't begin to tell you how many times I broke down step by step how to fish a jig or a number of other lures. I took the time because I felt that teaching a new guy to fish was just that important. Long before this forum became what it is today it was guys like me that took the time to teach what they knew about bass fishing that set it apart from other forums. It was guys like me who didn't care about going to the grave with a trade secret who was willing to share knowledge. Many tournament anglers, like you say keep it for the guys who are willing to pay. But if it wasn't for guys like myself and others who are knowledgeable about bass fishing and tournament fishing and willing to share most of these members wouldn't be here. Remember most tournament anglers have the idea that if you knew what they knew then you don't need their knowledge anymore. Also if I taught you everything I knew about bass fishing then I am training the next person who will take money out of my pocket at the next tournament. KVD is a product in his own words of bassmaster magazine and show. So details about bass fishing become less descriptive in most print. They would like to maintain the gap that they have established on their knowledge. To be honest many tournament anglers really do feel this way. You take a issue of bassmasters these days and compare it to an old subscription and you are going to find a difference in how much the angler does reveal about fishing a technique or look at some old bassmaster shows for that matter. I remember when Stanley Jigs was a sponsor of Bassmasters or at least a tournament and everyone in a Congo line all said they caught their fish on his lures. When they got to Rick Clunn and Ray Scott said what did you catch them on a Stanley Spinnerbait? Rick said a spinnerbait but not Stanley's and talks about how he caught his fish on points. All the video that was shot was of him running around throwing a red rattletrap. Now everything he said would work for a spinnerbait bite and I am not saying he didn't use a spinnerbait to win that tournament. But what I am saying is that the same bite and vibration pattern that was described by him would also coincide with a rattletrap bite and vibration pattern. If you where him and had the edge that helped him figure those fish out would you be so inclined to help the other competitors learn from their mistakes for the next pre spawn tournament. Just a thought considering at the time most of the tour because of how it jumped from state to state landed in spawn, pre spawn and post spawn time frame. Many tournament anglers go through great lengths to give you the alternate pattern that could work but are a little more fuzzy when it comes to details when your talking money. Like I said I am sorry if I ruffled a few feathers that was not my intent and I have edited the whole post.

[Paul Roberts]

Well I was avoiding this post since it went askew.

I do want to say, in defense of "pros", that they only have to hide certain things, for good reason I think. Just like I will bend over backwards to help anglers, but not share a particular thing or location I might feel is sensitive at that time.

There is SO much going on out there in the bass' world and so many ways to win a tournament or have a great day, I can't imagine pros -when not on a particular tournament bite -won't try to help anglers, or will try to mislead them.

It must also be understood that pros need to sell product -they are part of the tackle industry. I worked at a large tackle shop and took on that role, as part "expert advice" and part salesman. The conflict of interest is obvious and you need skill and the best intentions for anglers you meet in that context. But still lots of people are offended and dis-trusting right off the bat. Some WANT to put you down as trying to mislead.

As to this thread, style weighed in heavy, and the info got lost. It became personal. The discussion could have been about the details of crankbait fishing. And if you disagree or have a question, you can speak up -on topic.

Didn't see anything information-wise that Chris presented that was at issue. Nothing popped out I felt like I needed to challenge, question. Certainly nothing that would lead anyone astray. Discussion? Absolutely! There's always room for that.

[I Love BassResource]

Had I known this post would have rubbed people the wrong way I would not have presented it the way I did and I am sorry. I know cart that my words and a little smallmouth are not that impressive. I am not a outspoken person who shows large catches on here or have an avatar holding up giants with a tournament shirt on. I am not one to have an ego or to look down upon anyone who is just starting on their bass fishing quest to learn. I many times take the time to answer questions on here that few want to answer from members. My post count next to my name I would guess 80% of them came from answering a new guys question and many of them where hard questions. If they where not hard questions they where basic mechanics questions that many felt to proud to answer or where beneath their skill level. I couldn't begin to tell you how many times I broke down step by step how to fish a jig or a number of other lures. I took the time because I felt that teaching a new guy to fish was just that important. Long before this forum became what it is today it was guys like me that took the time to teach what they knew about bass fishing that set it apart from other forums. It was guys like me who didn't care about going to the grave with a trade secret who was willing to share knowledge. Many tournament anglers, like you say keep it for the guys who are willing to pay. But if it wasn't for guys like myself and others who are knowledgeable about bass fishing and tournament fishing and willing to share most of these members wouldn't be here. Remember most tournament anglers have the idea that if you knew what they knew then you don't need their knowledge anymore. Also if I taught you everything I knew about bass fishing then I am training the next person who will take money out of my pocket at the next tournament. KVD is a product in his own words of bassmaster magazine and show. So details about bass fishing become less descriptive in most print. They would like to maintain the gap that they have established on their knowledge. To be honest many tournament anglers really do feel this way. You take a issue of bassmasters these days and compare it to an old subscription and you are going to find a difference in how much the angler does reveal about fishing a technique or look at some old bassmaster shows for that matter. I remember when Stanley Jigs was a sponsor of Bassmasters or at least a tournament and everyone in a Congo line all said they caught their fish on his lures. When they got to Rick Clunn and Ray Scott said what did you catch them on a Stanley Spinnerbait? Rick said a spinnerbait but not Stanley's and talks about how he caught his fish on points. All the video that was shot was of him running around throwing a red rattletrap. Now everything he said would work for a spinnerbait bite and I am not saying he didn't use a spinnerbait to win that tournament. But what I am saying is that the same bite and vibration pattern that was described by him would also coincide with a rattletrap bite and vibration pattern. If you where him and had the edge that helped him figure those fish out would you be so inclined to help the other competitors learn from their mistakes for the next pre spawn tournament. Just a thought considering at the time most of the tour because of how it jumped from state to state landed in spawn, pre spawn and post spawn time frame. Many tournament anglers go through great lengths to give you the alternate pattern that could work but are a little more fuzzy when it comes to details when your talking money. Like I said I am sorry if I ruffled a few feathers that was not my intent and I have edited the whole post.

Paragraphs/indents are your friend

Your edits have transformed the original post into a pretty insightful article about crank baits, congrats!

If we were to only listen to anglers whose experience is actually recorded then Glenn should close membership, have a read only web site where anglers submit articles for review and after validation it is posted.

To repeat what I said eariler "I fish a Texas Rig completely different than cart7t or Kevin VanDam so who is correct, only KVD?"

Your missing the point Catt.  Regardless of how you fish your Texas Rig, your gonna look like a tool if and when you jump on a public forum and call out how KVD chooses to fish his Texas Rig.

  That doesn't mean he's right and your wrong, as with every other element in our sport, there are no absolutes. For many readers such as myself, it's hard to take a post serious when the author attacks an established pro, with no basis for comparison.

[J Francho]

After spending most of the early 90s thinking I was a crankbait aficionado, I only realize after the past two years of getting back into this style of fishing, how lucky I really was during that time. Now when I go fishing crankbaits, and I am speaking in terms of relatively deep, like 8 to 20 FOW, I analyze a great deal more. As I read Chris's post, I can only echo many of the points he made, and gained insight on a few more things I either suspected, or didn't realize altogether.

If you can get over your personal feelings about the post, I suggest you put Chris's points in the forefront of your mind next time you are out cranking.

[senile1]

After spending most of the early 90s thinking I was a crankbait aficionado, I only realize after the past two years of getting back into this style of fishing, how lucky I really was during that time. Now when I go fishing crankbaits, and I am speaking in terms of relatively deep, like 8 to 20 FOW, I analyze a great deal more. As I read Chris's post, I can only echo many of the points he made, and gained insight on a few more things I either suspected, or didn't realize altogether.

If you can get over your personal feelings about the post, I suggest you put Chris's points in the forefront of your mind next time you are out cranking.

I agree.  At one time I thought I was a very good crankbait fisherman, but I've learned that I'm not even close. 

I missed the original draft of Chris's post so I can't comment on that.  As the post appears now, it is an excellent source of information for crankbait fishing and one that I have added to my favorites.  I'm not saying that it is a smart thing for a relatively unknown angler to call out a great crankbait fisherman such as Elias who has proven himself in the public eye.  If Chris made an error in presentation, it appears he has corrected it, so let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. 

[grimlin]

I copied and pasted this in my folder....I wish i copied and paste the original too...it made a lot of sense!

[Gatorbassman]

First of all I would hope that those wanting to learn more about fishing crankbaits would read this thread and see it as it is. One angler comparing his opinions to another angler's and using that contrast to teach more details on a subject.

Now please take some time to get to know Chris. Look through his posts and see a guy with a good hart who loves to teach.

If you insist on some type of record I can always start a pole. "Who's taught you more about crankbait fishing." Paul or Chris. I'm pretty sure that Chris would come out on top of that unfair pole.

There is no doubt that Paul is an awesome crankbait fisherman, he is one of my favorite pros. But I have never seen Paul on here on any other website, forum, or venue sharing the amount of information that Chris has shared here on BR. Maybe someday but not yet.

Teaching is what BR is all about. So who is willing to teach and who is willing to learn? If you choose to do neither then please don't discourage those who are trying to grow this sport through teaching.

[grimlin]

First of all I would hope that those wanting to learn more about fishing crankbaits would read this thread and see it as it is. One angler comparing his opinions to another angler's and using that contrast to teach more details on a subject.

Now please take some time to get to know Chris. Look through his posts and see a guy with a good hart who loves to teach.

If you insist on some type of record I can always start a pole. "Who's taught you more about crankbait fishing." Paul or Chris. I'm pretty sure that Chris would come out on top of that unfair pole.

There is no doubt that Paul is an awesome crankbait fisherman, he is one of my favorite pros. But I have never seen Paul on here on any other website, forum, or venue sharing the amount of information that Chris has shared here on BR. Maybe someday but not yet.

Teaching is what BR is all about. So who is willing to teach and who is willing to learn? If you choose to do neither then please don't discourage those who are trying to grow this sport through teaching.

Exactly how i took it...Chris added more indepth information that Paul maybe wasn't able to share at the time.

This is really going to help me be able to apply what i learn on the water this spring now!  ;D