Are Bass smart?

[Gomer Pyle]

Catching those "smart" fish really helps to stroke my ego It brings me great satisfaction to come home after a long day of fishing and report to my wife and other select fishing buddies that I outsmarted those smart fish today. I might add, it helps to further justify the $$ spent on tackle, rods n reels, bug spray, etc. Anybody can catch a dummy catfish or bluegill, but a LMB....now that takes some expertise

[fishfordollars]

Heck no. If they are so smart how come I'm still catching them in the same spots and on the same lures that I did 30 years ago.

If you go out and have a bad day it ain't because you ran into a bunch of smart fish. It's because you(An angler) are not smart enough to figure them out. Lots of times I ain't either.

Just because I dumb down while on the water does not make the fish smarter.

[tyrius.]

Heck no. If they are so smart how come I'm still catching them in the same spots and on the same lures that I did 30 years ago.

We can cut out the sarcasm by agreeing that the fish you caught in year 1 are most certainly not the fish you caught in year 30 and you are likely not catching the same fish year after year or even trip and trip.

No one is equating bass with Einstein or that they have an eidetic memory.  What people are saying is that bass are capable of being conditioned by external stimuli.  This can be equated to learning.  They can learn to avoid certain lures for a period of time.  Other studies have shown that some bass are more vulnerable to angling than others.  So, a bass's ability to become conditioned and then to retain that conditioning varies.  This has been shown through numerous scientific studies.  Some of which have been linked in this thread.

It doesn't matter if you believe it or not, bass are capable of becoming condtioned therefore they are capable of learning.  But, as I've said much earlier in this thread, they're still pretty dumb.

I also don't understand why some people are so dismissive of other's points or why they try and deliberately try and take another's points so far out of context that it no longer matches what that person said.  Strange really, if you are so sure of your knowledge then why not post that as response and be constructive?

[fishfordollars]

When these fish are stacked in brushpiles in 20-30' of water and they produce day after day with out a break, I tend to believe they are basically the same schools of fish.

If, however they were shallower I would tend to agree. The deeper schools tend to stay put once they set up for the summer.

[tyrius.]

When these fish are stacked in brushpiles in 20-30' of water and they produce day after day with out a break, I tend to believe they are basically the same schools of fish.

Bass aren't going to learn from each other.  They will only respond to direct stimuli.  You have to catch a specific bass for it to experience the negative stimuli associated with attempting to eat something (your lure) that was not food and then getting caught.  Then you have to repeat that stimulus to that specific bass enough times for it to become conditioned to that specific presentation.  Then you have to repeat the stimulus regularly or the bass will "forget".

Like I've said, they're not smart but they are capable of adapting to external stimulus.  If you really want to explore this try tagging the fish that you catch and logging repeat catches of the same exact fish.

[fishfordollars]

We've done that. Lots of taged fish in the lake and yes, they have been caught more than once, by more people than myself.

[tyrius.]

We've done that. Lots of taged fish in the lake and yes, they have been caught more than once, by more people than myself.

No one is saying that that won't happen.  But, to draw any conclusions one would need more data.  Such as time between catches, presentation used to catch the fish, date of catch, etc, etc.

[Mattlures]

tyrius. It doesnt matter how many scientific studies you find to support bass can "learn". It doesnt matter how many MILLIONS of examples you can come up with from your own experience or all the other fisherman's experiences. All the fisherman are wrong and all the scientist are wrong becasue an "expert" said so.

To answer the question of why we catch the same fish. There are many possabilities.

First nobody is saying they "learn" the very first time. A dog which is much more intelegent does not learn the first time it is discaplined. It takes a couple times and even then that dog may need a reminder every once in a while. But we all know dogs learn and can be taught.

2nd we dont know how long bass retain what they "learn". it is possible they forget after a while. I would geuss it depends of how much negative and possative experince that particular fish has.

Example: you have a pond and you feed the bass shiners for a year. Then you use some for bait. The fish you catch have been eating shiners every day so even though you release them it will most likely take a while for them to figure out not to eat them when your using them for bait.

Now if you werent feeding them shiners and just used them for bait they would figure it out faster. I have seen bass follow up a hooked trout but not eat it and as soon as it was thrown back without the line and hook the bass ate it!. That fish knew to aviod the line and hook.

3rd. fish dont live very long, plus there is a new crop every year, so that is another reason why the same old lures keep working.

fish will become conditioned accoring to pressure. In a small pond you can condition fish much faster to a specific technique or bait. You can litteraly catch most of the population over a short period of time and catch some multiple times. They will "learn" and you will need to change it up. The bigger the lake and less pressure each fish recieves would greatly affect how fast they become conditioned to a bait or if they become conditioned at all.

and last just like other animals some individuals will be more or less intellegent then the others.

Nothing has been posted to prove that bass cant "learn" nothing even clost to proof has been posted. Just sarcasm.

BTW you can replace the word "learn" with instinct, condition,adapt, etc.

[Catt]

Matt y'all come up with the some old tired wore out research that has been peer reviewed into submission but y'all will not read the information on the peer review because it will disprove your point of view. Y'all talk of science but stop reading at the point that agrees with your belief. I dare either of y'all to send a PM to the research team y'all keep quoting and ask for the peer review and report back here.

This is just like the discussion about fish attractants and Dr. Keith Jones once the peer reviews came out slamming his theories the subject aint came up again.

[Mattlures]

Catt I have read the articles posted in this thread. I know several fisheries biologosts. I have talked to them about it. You have not posted 1 bit of evidence to suport your argument. You just dodge the issue.

I have conducted my own experiments. I have managed a few private ponds/lakes, I have kept bass in aquariums. I have proven to myself beyond any reasonable doubt that fish can be conditioned to aviod danger. I dont know to what degree but it is obvious that they do this. In most cases they assosiate humans with danger, unless they are pets and they are being fed by them but it doesnt take long if they get caught by those humans.

You talk about peer reviews? Ok show me a peer review that disputes what the original experiments shows. Show me where it says the info is incorrect. That it is wrong. You cant. Matbe you can find something that says the experiment wasnt perfect but that does not make the conclusion wrong.

All you have done is take a stance against all the experiments and all the experiances of the fisherman. You have not provided any form of proof to suport your obviously wrong position.

I have seen thousands of examples of fish adapting, learning, instinct etc. I dont need a scientist to agree with me, even though they all do.

Having this debate with you is pointless. You have lost along time ago.

At this point its like arguing with a traffic cone. I am done with this one.

Like I said before I truley have no hard feelings and I still dont.

[Catt]

I have a friend who has Bachelor of Science degree, Master of Science degree. & a Doctor of Philosophy in science and he agrees you've said nothing because you read a report to the point of where it agrees with you and stopped right there.

Just because someone wears a white lab coat, horned reamed glass, and plays with test tubes does not make it fact. I've not taken a stance against all the experiments instead I read them all the way to the end something y'all fail to do. The higher the Degree of Manipulation used in research the less that research will be accepted something else y'all ignore.

Talk about disagreeing all the experiences of the fisherman; I suggest you go back through this tread again.

I could post all the necessary peer reviews to support my side but y'all would still not accept it so why not do it for yourself? Because you would have to admit something.

I'll repeat

Yea we get it to catch big bass

California baits

In California waters

Thrown by California anglers

All others need not apply

[tyrius.]

I could post all the necessary peer reviews to support my side but y'all would still not accept it so why not do it for yourself? Because you would have to admit something.

Why wouldn't I accept it?  I've spent time trying to track down the true answer and have come up with nothing that states that bass are incapable of being conditioned (of learning through their experiences).  In fact, what I have found is the complete opposite.  All studies that have appeared in my limited searches have supported the position that bass and other fish can learn through their experiences.

I don't understand why you keep posting dismissive and sarcastic comments in response to legitimate questions.  If you aren't interested in a meaningful conversation on this topic then why do you keep posting here?  I am not going to take your position at face value.

You said

An examination of the brain of a bass show conclusively it does not have the capability of what this types of research shows and that my friend is accepted by 85% of all who have peer reviewed at the facts.

which is a pretty precise statement that should be able to be backed by something.  You keep talking about peer review and degrees of manipulation and other aspects of the scientific method, why don't you apply it to your side of this discussion and show us the information that supports your quote above.