Catch and Release?

[Ellesar]

How did fish manage to survive all the years before they had man to manage their populations.

Man can only overfish. He cannot "underfish".

I fish within the law. If you do as well, I have no problem with you.

You're not a bad guy for taking them, nor am I a bad guy for putting them back.

Man can effect their habitat however, reducing the amount of food and cover available to support their population. This can also effect predator populations which throws nature out of balance. Nature will restore the balance, but its not "nice" how she accomplishes this. Populations dying off from starvation and disease is a slow and painful process.

This is especially true with something like Deer hunting where man has decimated the predator population and habitat. Without hunting to take up the slack, the deer die a slow and painful death. I've seen the effects and its not pretty to say the least.

[Busy]

It is interesting how this topic gets so heated in fishing discussions.  I've never heard it come up in any other sport.  You never hear of 'trap and release' or 'shoot and release' in hunting.  In fact, that'd probably be considered cruel unanimously.

If you are a fisherman, you've probably noticed that lakes often have limits that vary within the same state.  These limits have been established to PROTECT the game in each body of water they are imposed on.  So long as you abide by the law no harm should come to the sport.  In fact, I will keep a fish if I know that it is damaged enough that it will not survive if released, even if it is not legal.  Same thing when hunting, if a hen pheasant gets taken by mistake it will get kept.  My view is that if I kill something, I use it.  I do everything I can to make sure these mistakes don't happen, but by and large, they will from time to time.

These 6, 7, 8, 9+ lb fish already have their genetics in offspring.  Old genetics aren't always better than new either.

I've more research to do yet on bass, but in hunting I do not worry about the game population.  They say that hunters targeting quail and pheasant do not harm the game population because the majority of game you take would die in winter conditions naturally.  I'm a fairly humble person, and so I think that whatever game you manage to take is likely the stupid game.  People may be pulling 10 lb stupid bass out of a lake but the 10 lb smart bass are still down there .

There is some discussion about man vs. nature going on here.  Any definition of nature that doesn't include humanity is flawed.  We are a natural part of nature.  There is no such thing as 'man vs. nature.'  Humans, like any other living thing, require resources for survival.  Our job isn't to refrain from harvesting resources, it's to do it in a sustainable manner.

That's my two cents.  Just have fun fishing and respect your environment.

[tyrius.]

Man can only overfish. He cannot "underfish".

A given body of water can be underfished resulting in stunted populations.  These fish are basically constantly be starving and fighting over every possible food source.  I've fished farm ponds that I could catch fish nearly every single cast.  These were all short stunted fish that hit everything that could fit in their mouths because they were constantly hungry.

Is this a "healthy" fish population?  I would say no.  In instances such as this harvesting fish is beneficial to the entire population.  Releasing fish back into this pond is actually harming the overall population.

[Muddy]

It is interesting how this topic gets so heated in fishing discussions.  I've never heard it come up in any other sport.  You never hear of 'trap and release' or 'shoot and release' in hunting. In fact, that'd probably be considered cruel unanimously.

If you are a fisherman, you've probably noticed that lakes often have limits that vary within the same state. These limits have been established to PROTECT the game in each body of water they are imposed on. So long as you abide by the law no harm should come to the sport. In fact, I will keep a fish if I know that it is damaged enough that it will not survive if released, even if it is not legal. Same thing when hunting, if a hen pheasant gets taken by mistake it will get kept. My view is that if I kill something, I use it. I do everything I can to make sure these mistakes don't happen, but by and large, they will from time to time.

These 6, 7, 8, 9+ lb fish already have their genetics in offspring. Old genetics aren't always better than new either.

I've more research to do yet on bass, but in hunting I do not worry about the game population. They say that hunters targeting quail and pheasant do not harm the game population because the majority of game you take would die in winter conditions naturally. I'm a fairly humble person, and so I think that whatever game you manage to take is likely the stupid game. People may be pulling 10 lb stupid bass out of a lake but the 10 lb smart bass are still down there .

There is some discussion about man vs. nature going on here. Any definition of nature that doesn't include humanity is flawed. We are a natural part of nature. There is no such thing as 'man vs. nature.' Humans, like any other living thing, require resources for survival. Our job isn't to refrain from harvesting resources, it's to do it in a sustainable manner.

That's my two cents. Just have fun fishing and respect your environment.

I tried shooting a deer and throwing it back, didn't work it started to smell and draw flies

[Desultory]

^LMAO!

[Fishing Rhino]

How did fish manage to survive all the years before they had man to manage their populations.

Man can only overfish. He cannot "underfish".

I fish within the law. If you do as well, I have no problem with you.

You're not a bad guy for taking them, nor am I a bad guy for putting them back.

Man can effect their habitat however, reducing the amount of food and cover available to support their population. This can also effect predator populations which throws nature out of balance. Nature will restore the balance, but its not "nice" how she accomplishes this. Populations dying off from starvation and disease is a slow and painful process.

This is especially true with something like Deer hunting where man has decimated the predator population and habitat. Without hunting to take up the slack, the deer die a slow and painful death. I've seen the effects and its not pretty to say the least.

I agree.  I have no argument with a single point you make.  

But the topic is catch and release.  My comments are about catch and release only.

Even what Muddy said about impoundments, reservoirs, etc., needing management.  They need it only because man has set targets for populations of game fish such as bass.

Left on their own, even these waters would reach an equilibrium.  But it's not man's concept of an ideal equilibrium, so the body of water is managed to obtain that result.

Were there to be a survey done of my favorite pond, I have no doubt the results would absolutely stun the biologists.

Beyond a doubt, it has the largest biomass of fish per cubic measure than any other pond or lake in this area.  I'll guarantee it's not even close.

This has been the case for decades.  It has large populations of crawfish, mussels, pan fish, pickerel, and best of all, bass.

It is surrounded by private property, and there is no public access.  You either own property or must have a landowner grant you access.

There is very light fishing pressure.  Yet, none of the fish in the pond are stunted.

The insect hatches are tremendous.  Yesterday, on the dock, I witnessed a spider skittering along on the surface, making a bee line for the shore.

A medium size bluegill saw it and gave a half hearted pursuit, just out of curiosity, not hunger.  There were dozens of small blue gills in a tight school and not one other even bothered to take a look at the easy meal.

I've been on the pond with the mist rising from the glassy surface and seen wall to wall larvae hatching.  Not a single rise to any of them.

The fish had been feeding all night and had their fill.

There are schools of white perch so dense that I have seen the screen on the sounder completely black.

Muskrats. otters, and mink are common sights along the shore in the early spring before the vegetation leafs out.

Ospreys, herons, egrets, an eagle, kingfishers, cormorants, and fishhawks all have easy pickings.

Yesterday a fish hawk dove, captured a fish, and lit in a tree to eat it.  A few minutes later it repeated the process.  

This pond has reached a natural equilibrium commensurate with its fertility.

It's natural equilibrium is the stuff most fishermen only dream of.

[Busy]

This natural equilibrium notion is infallible.  It's also seems tautological, meaning that it can't be proven either way concretely.  That being said, I don't think it's false in the least.

Man builds a lake.  Man dumps chemicals in the lake.  Anglers heavily pressure the lake.  A natural equilibrium occurs.  The natural equilibrium point is few, unhealthy fish.

You do indeed describe a great-sounding pond!  Would you wish to make every water this way?    If so, would doing just that create unnatural equilibriums because they came at the behest of man?  Would that be good or bad?  There's no line between man and nature, it's illogical.  

Some waters are naturally productive, some aren't.  Sometimes man makes waters more productive through educated culling.  Sometimes man makes them less productive.  Sometimes mother nature does the EXACT SAME THING.

Studies that I have read indicate that cover and baitfish have much more to do with stunted bass than population.  No cover in open water (or not enough to contain the majority of bass) and the bass will obliterate schooling baitfish populations, resulting in all the bass becoming stunted over time until the bass start dying out.  In essence, this should read:  Too many bass for the available cover results in stunted bass populations.  Your ponds biomass of fish per cubic measure is likely directly related to your ponds biomass in general per cubic measure.  Adult bass are generally at the top of the food chain in their environments, meaning they almost certainly use more biomass than they produce.  Everything in the water depends on living cover, ie plants.  Maybe we should worry about the plant biomass more than the fish biomass.  My main point is that taking bass out a pond or lake does not affect the plant life like the plant life affects the bass.  If you take a bass out, the envirmonment that provided for it is still there, while it will merely take time to replace the bass.

Sorry to have text-walled you all Interesting thoughts are all over this thread.  Not meaning to beat a dead horse, but thought I might anyways.

[Bob C]

Are any of the die hard release guys concerned with the stress they put on the fish by hooking especially when it goes down deep, or when they try to pull their head off when draging them through the weeds? Isn't that like shooting a deer, then pulling out the bullet and letting them go? I enjoy fishing and I usually take a couple home for dinner. Most are released. The bigger the fish, the bigger the pan. 8-)

I quess no body wants to answer my question. I don't want to seem like a smart a**. I'm serious. If you're concerened for the fish, why catch them? I can't imagine spending thousands on a boat and gear, and not keeping a few legal fish. Why do you fish? Is it for the fight. If that's the case, tie a pork chop on your line and cast in the back yard. Your dog will give you more fight than any fish ever could and you will be guaranteed a strike every cast. I'll be fishing this weekend and I'll be bringing home dinner. 8-)

[J Francho]

Are any of the die hard release guys concerned with the stress they put on the fish by hooking especially when it goes down deep, or when they try to pull their head off when draging them through the weeds? Isn't that like shooting a deer, then pulling out the bullet and letting them go? I enjoy fishing and I usually take a couple home for dinner. Most are released. The bigger the fish, the bigger the pan. 8-)

I quess no body wants to answer my question. I don't want to seem like a smart a**. I'm serious. If you're concerened for the fish, why catch them? I can't imagine spending thousands on a boat and gear, and not keeping a few legal fish. Why do you fish? Is it for the fight. If that's the case, tie a pork chop on your line and cast in the back yard. Your dog will give you more fight than any fish ever could and you will be guaranteed a strike every cast. I'll be fishing this weekend and I'll be bringing home dinner. 8-)

Yea!!!! I love self righteous posts!  Why I fish is my business, as is yours.  I don't judge you, why judge others?  I mean, if you are going to feed your family, why bother with bass fishing?  Seems a bit counter productive.  It would be a lot easier to set some rat traps than to try and catch fish, LOL.  Oh, that's right, you said you keep SOME of what you catch, what was the point of catching the others?  Sport?  C'mon dude, give us break.

[Bob C]

Are any of the die hard release guys concerned with the stress they put on the fish by hooking especially when it goes down deep, or when they try to pull their head off when draging them through the weeds? Isn't that like shooting a deer, then pulling out the bullet and letting them go? I enjoy fishing and I usually take a couple home for dinner. Most are released. The bigger the fish, the bigger the pan. 8-)

I quess no body wants to answer my question. I don't want to seem like a smart a**. I'm serious. If you're concerened for the fish, why catch them? I can't imagine spending thousands on a boat and gear, and not keeping a few legal fish. Why do you fish? Is it for the fight. If that's the case, tie a pork chop on your line and cast in the back yard. Your dog will give you more fight than any fish ever could and you will be guaranteed a strike every cast. I'll be fishing this weekend and I'll be bringing home dinner. 8-)

Yea!!!! I love self righteous posts! Why I fish is my business, as is yours. I don't judge you, why judge others? I mean, if you are going to feed your family, why bother with bass fishing? Seems a bit counter productive. It would be a lot easier to set some rat traps than to try and catch fish, LOL. Oh, that's right, you said you keep SOME of what you catch, what was the point of catching the others? Sport? C'mon dude, give us break.

I'm not judging anyone. It just seems that some are very concerened about the fish and yet they have no problem with putting them through the stress (or posibly death) by draging them out of the water. I keep some. It depends what I want for the next fish fry, and I only keep legal fish. Bass here have to be 14" to keep. They are the ones that are good to eat. I've let some big ones go because they don't taste very good any way.

[J Francho]

Read what you wrote, and tell me again you aren't being judgmental.

I can't imagine spending thousands on a boat and gear, and not keeping a few legal fish. Why do you fish? Is it for the fight. If that's the case, tie a pork chop on your line and cast in the back yard.

You are telling anyone that doesn't fish like you not to bother fishing. So either admit you were being judgmental, or retract the statement.

[Bob C]

There's nothing to retract. I didn't say anything. I asked a question. I don't care if you keep them or not.

[flechero]

Are any of the die hard release guys concerned with the stress they put on the fish by hooking especially when it goes down deep, or when they try to pull their head off when draging them through the weeds? Isn't that like shooting a deer, then pulling out the bullet and letting them go? I enjoy fishing and I usually take a couple home for dinner. Most are released. The bigger the fish, the bigger the pan.

Bob C.

I fish because, like you, I enjoy it.  I don't keep fish because I don't like the taste or texture of fish.  But since you brought it up...  why do you release most fish, aren't you concerned about the welfare of the fish you catch and release?   :  Standards are good... double standards are not.

[Matt Fly]

Bob, I get your question. I have asked the same from the guys who like to make a big fuss about BASS and FLW rules on using a net.

BASS don't allow them at this time, so guys try to bash the anglers or BASS for bouncing them off the side of the boat, the console or bouncing on the carpet.

Same question, I always ask them about the ride the fish goes on when hooked, pulled through brush, sides skinned and punctured by stick ups at times, gut hooks, and etc....... before he gets to the boat.

So, if they really cared, they wouldn't fish at all.

I do care, I dont use nets unless they are toothy critters. Only sight fish for big girls, big girls to me are better than 9's on beds, or during a tournament, don't use c-rigs at all, chance of gut hooking a fish is greater. I do carry ice and Please Release Me, a needle, and I teach bleeding air bladder at area tournaments. I do love the green fish, and I do what I can to ensure they are gonna be there for my grandson one day.

Bob, what about the guys who don't like to eat fish at all, but love to fish?

We all fish for different reasons. I like to eat lots of fish. Crappie, cats, and stripers do the trick for me.

I can only eat so much fish, so why keep them all?

I don't begrudge any fishermen for their styles.   I was raised this way, and still believe in those values today.   Somethings I have taken to higher grounds on my own.    

Now, what does all this have to pertain to C and R and the thread?

     

[Bob C]

Bob, I get your question. I have asked the same from the guys who like to make a big fuss about BASS and FLW rules on using a net.

BASS don't allow them at this time, so guys try to bash the anglers or BASS for bouncing them off the side of the boat, the console or bouncing on the carpet.

Same question, I always ask them about the ride the fish goes on when hooked, pulled through brush, sides skinned and punctured by stick ups at times, gut hooks, and etc....... before he gets to the boat.

So, if they really cared, they wouldn't fish at all.

I do care, I dont use nets unless they are toothy critters. Only sight fish for big girls, big girls to me are better than 9's on beds, or during a tournament, don't use c-rigs at all, chance of gut hooking a fish is greater. I do carry ice and Please Release Me, a needle, and I teach bleeding air bladder at area tournaments. I do love the green fish, and I do what I can to ensure they are gonna be there for my grandson one day.

Bob, what about the guys who don't like to eat fish at all, but love to fish?

We all fish for different reasons. I like to eat lots of fish. Crappie, cats, and stripers do the trick for me.

I can only eat so much fish, so why keep them all?

Now, what does all this have to pertain to C and R and the thread?

     

I agree with you 100%. It doesn't matter to me if you release them or keep them for any reason. It's the guys that say they all must be released but they don't have a problem catching and damaging them. I won't release one if I think he won't survive.

[Desultory]

Now, what does all this have to pertain to C and R and the thread?

I could be wrong, but I think the point was that hard core C&R guys are giving the "keep a few but release most" a hard time for keeping those few, saying everyone should always release all their catches except for the damaged ones that wouldn't survive.

It seems to me though that these guys aren't really concerned about the health of the fish as they are about keeping the fish available to be caught again.  If someone takes a couple home to eat, those fish are not available to be caught by a different angler sometime later.  Either that or that 2lb bass might have someday been the next world record.

I still think that as long as everyone is following the rules we should all respect each other as fellow sportsmen.  The issue doesn't need to be nearly so divisive as it's become.

[DINK WHISPERER]

8 pages and going strong...........................................  

[Glenn]

Ya, this horse has been beat ... hard!  I think Desultory summed it up extremely well.  So with that said....

....wait for it....

...........wait for it..............

WAIT

FOR

IT.....

G'night Irene.