Bass do learn!!! they are smarter then you think Read this

[dr.crow]

Linking Angling Catch Rates and Fish Learning under

Catch-and-Release Regulations

PAUL J. ASKEY,* SHANE A. RICHARDS,1

AND JOHN R. POST

Department of Biological Sciences, University of Calgary,

2500 University Drive Northwest, Calgary, Alberta T2N 1N4, Canada

American Journal of Fisheries Management 26:10201029, 2006

Copyright by the American Fisheries Society 2006

DOI: 10.1577/M06-035.1

[Catt]

Cognitive Ethology: The idea that one might learn anything of biological interest about an animal by isolating it in a box and bombarding it with artificial stimuli," in particular, is what cognitive ethology seeks to challenge.

Habituation = Learning to ignore irrelevant stimuli or stimuli that convey little or no information

Animals stop responding to stimuli that do not provide appropriate feedback.

ï Gray squirrels respond to the alarm calls of other squirrels.

They stop responding if the calls are not followed by an attack ("cry-wolf" effect).

The stimuli that teaches a bass not to hit certain lures is being caught by it and the repeated seeing of the lure. But as the stimuli is repeatedly seen by the bass with no negative influences from striking it the stimuli teaches the bass to no long fear the lure resulting in it striking it.

What is being ignored here is this is Theory and Theory is not fact, there are always two sides to every theory and neither side can be ignored.

[Catt]

I to highly respect your and everyone's option but by the same token Muddy just because y'all see this on the one body of water y'all fish, no matter how many fish caught and how many years y'all have fished it does not make it gospel truth for the rest of us and the bodies of water we fish.

If I've tried to teach anything to anyone here it has been to look at things from more than one side and not take anything for granted. Again since we are talking theory there is not right side nor is there any wrong side of this discussion.

If learning to ignore irrelevant stimuli or stimuli that convey little or no information teaches the bass to not be afraid of the same stimuli that taught it to be afraid in the first place did the bass truly learn?

[Catt]

If you are interested in researching this topic farther I suggest the following

Animal cognition is the title given to a modern approach to the mental capacities of non-human animals. It has developed out of comparative psychology, but has also been strongly influenced by the approach of ethology behavioral ecology, and evolutionary psychology. The alternative name cognitive ethology is therefore sometimes used; and much of what used to be considered under the title of animal intelligence is now thought of under this heading.

[tyrius.]

The stimuli that teaches a bass not to hit certain lures is being caught by it and the repeated seeing of the lure. But as the stimuli is repeatedly seen by the bass with no negative influences from striking it the stimuli teaches the bass to no long fear the lure resulting in it striking it.

Hmm, this looks remarkably familiar!!!    

Is this not what those on the "bass remember" side have been saying the entire time?  In essence, bass can be conditioned against hitting certain lures.  Then after a variable period of time the bass will no longer retain that condition and will be able to be caught again on that lure.  Same thing no?

[Catt]

The stimuli that teaches a bass not to hit certain lures is being caught by it and the repeated seeing of the lure. But as the stimuli is repeatedly seen by the bass with no negative influences from striking it the stimuli teaches the bass to no long fear the lure resulting in it striking it.

Hmm, this looks remarkably familiar!!!

Is this not what those on the "bass remember" side have been saying the entire time? In essence, bass can be conditioned against hitting certain lures. Then after a variable period of time the bass will no longer retain that condition and will be able to be caught again on that lure. Same thing no?

Same thing yes but is this really learning?

"The idea that one might learn anything of biological interest about an animal by isolating it in a box and bombarding it with artificial stimuli," in particular, is what cognitive ethology seeks to challenge.

[tyrius.]

Same thing yes but is this really learning?

So you agree with the results but not the method the results were obtained?

[Catt]

Same thing yes but is this really learning?

So you agree with the results but not the method the results were obtained?

Learn: to gain knowledge or understanding of by study, instruction, or experience

In essence, bass can be conditioned against hitting certain lures.  Then after a variable period of time the bass will no longer retain that condition and will be able to be caught again on that lure.

What did the bass actually learn?  

[Catt]

Muddy, Animal Cognition, Cognitive Science & Cognitive Ethology  

[tyrius.]

What did the bass actually learn?

ahh, I thought in your earlier post you meant what did the angler learn.

If you want to be specific in the terminology even the original article puts learn in quotes when talking about what bass "learn".

Here's another reason why bassresource.com rules:

http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/angling.html

Researchers at the Illinois Natural History Survey completed an interesting study on this topic. First, let's look at their study design. They used three ponds, all about 0.2 acres in size. All ponds were stocked with the same number (420/acre) and the same sizes (9-13 inches) of largemouth bass. After bass were stocked, anxious samplers waited 2 weeks before fishing began. They varied amounts of fishing pressure at each pond (low, moderate, and high). All fishing was catch and release. At the end of the 3-month study, only two bass had died. One was lost in the low-pressure pond, and one in the high-pressure pond.

   In the low-pressure pond, fishing amounted to 170 hours/acre, and anglers caught 3.0 bass per hour. In the moderate-pressure pond, anglers fished 340 hours/acre, and caught 1.2 bass per hour. In the high-pressure pond, angling was 680 hours/acre of water, and they only caught 0.4 bass per hour. The more experienced bass in the higher pressure ponds certainly learned, and were less likely to bite.

In the second part of the same study, researchers stocked each of three small ponds with 75 bass per acre. During the next 49 days, each pond received 23 sessions of catch and release fishing. Each session. Pond A was fished for 0.8 hour. Pond B for 1.6 hours, and Pond C for 3.3 hours. Figure 3 shows what happened. As fishing pressure increased, fish became harder to catch. Near the end of the study, no bass could be caught in Pond B or Pond C. The best bass fishing occurred and catch rates of bass persisted throughout the study period in Pond A. which had the shortest fishing sessions (0.8hr/ac). Bass seemed to learn more from the length of fishing sessions rather than the number of times the pond was fished. Again the more experienced the bass became, the harder they were to catch.

[Catt]

Is that not isolating the fish in a box (pond) and bombarding it with artificial stimuli with the idea that one might learn a proposed biological answer; I fail to see where this type of research is any different than research done in an aquarium.

Dr Jones explanation of Habituation learning is as follows:  This is the type of learning through which bass gradually become less sensitive to particular stimulations. Examples would include fish in an aquarium that no longer shy from people who walk by.

Now given that explanation one must then conclude that if we constantly walk around our clear water pond the bass would no longer shy from people who walk by.

See the problem with research done in an aquarium?  

[paul.]

wow! i have no idea who the "best" angler on this site is, but the title of "stubbornest" is undisputed and uncontested. tommy, i have suddenly developed an overwhelming and deep respect for your family. they must be very special people indeed. ;D ;D ;D

i have never met you or fished with you (although i'd like to one day ). i have never seen the water you fish. (but i don't think it's a small pond ) and yet i believe that if you will provide me with a few simple, key pieces of information that maybe, just maybe you might re-think your position on how "smart" bass really are. i believe that using simple, undeniable logic i might even be able to get you to at least consider that you yourself have to some degree been a victim of bass "intelligence". i hesitate to say i will convince you, because it's pretty obvious that's not gonna happen.

question is, are you game?  

[dr.crow]

I'm just sharing information - no axe to grind.  I couldn't sleep last night and searched and searched - it just takes a lot of time to dig up these things, without access through a fancy institutional library, but they are out there.  I found quite a few more but didn't want to bombard you all.

Oh, and if you read the posts closely, I think we are making some progress.  

Remember - an open mind is a key to learning, and an ego stops learning dead in its tracks.  Doesn't mean you have to believe everything someone tells you, but you have to be open to the possibility your previous view of how things are may be wrong, then formulate a new one with all the evidence at hand.  Just a thougt.

I appreciate everyone here, too - this discussion has been entertaining and educational and I appreciate your letting me join in on it.

Batman

[tyrius.]

I fail to see where this type of research is any different than research done in an aquarium.

Then let's just drop this because if you can't see the difference between a pond and an aquarium then there's no point in continuing this discussion.  

Just for the record I grew up fishing small ponds (some probably that small), but I'm pretty sure that I've never made a cast into an aquarium.

[Jimzee]

I'm glad y'all have been civil on this thread, butted heads a little...yes, but civil.  

It's been a real good read so far, probably one of the best threads on here in a while.  I am opinionated as anyone and I think both sides of the issue have more in common after reading through it.

Do I think bass learn if pressured?  Yes

Do they maintain long term memory if not pressured? I don't think so.

[Catt]

Please read verbatim the Illinois Natural History Survey and you will find

Three ponds, all about 0.2 acres in size

Stocked with the same number (420/acre) and the same sizes (9-13 inches) of largemouth bass.

Waited 2 weeks before fishing

Y'all find this a fair assessment of how bass act in the wild anymore than research done in an aquarium?

There hundreds of scientist & biologist who disagree that these types of studies are viable; here is just a short list.

http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/BiblioCognitiveEthology.html

And yes Paul I have fished ponds, marshes, streams, rivers, lakes, & reservoirs all across the southern US.

[dr.crow]

We've moved from debating the validity of aquarium results to debating the validity of pond results.  There has been research on larger bodies of water which I've posted, as well as others, and these can be debated also.  You get into even large bodies of water and complicated statistics have to be employeed - yep - more debate.  Even the researchers typically conclude more information is needed, but the body of evidence builds, and I think it prudent to factor the possibilities into our thinking.

The entire discussion on cognition is irrelevent - that thought line is more about the why than the what.  And as a great fisherman with 40 years experience on the water keeps telling me, stop asking the why and focus on the what and where.  You'll never know the why until the fish start talking.

[tyrius.]

Y'all find this a fair assessment of how bass act in the wild anymore than research done in an aquarium?

Yes, I find it a more fair assessment than aquarium testing.

However, I find the distinction completely irrelevent.  It matters not where bass show that they are able to "learn" associative behaivors.  What matters is the fact that they do "learn" them.

Do you disagree with the statement that bass exhibit the ability to "learn" through association?

[paul.]

catt, if you would be so kind, please provide answers to the following simple questions.  you may or may not know the "exact" answer to some of these questions but do the best you can.  you have criticized and questioned the data in this thread, claiming it to be invalid, so we will use your own data.  i have no clue what your answers will be, and yet i am fairly confident that we will draw one of two inevitable conclusions, both of which will be equally unsettling to you.    

1.  your age.

2.  the state of the union in which you live.

3.  how many years have you fished within the state where you live?

4.  estimate of how many different bodies of water have you fished at least 10 times within the state where you live.

5. name of the lake within your state where you have fished the most within the past 5+ years and/or consider yourself the most familiar with - i.e your "home lake".

6.  estimated total time in years/ months you have spent fishing your "home lake".

7.  estimated average amount of fishing trips you have made on your "home lake" per year since you started fishing there (estimated total # of times you have fished the lake divided by total years fished.)

8.  estimated average length of fishing trip (on the average, in hours, how long do you spend on the water when you go fishing?)

9.  how many types of baits do you fish with any regularity?  (a "type" of bait would be a "category" of bait - i.e. lipless crank, jig, etc.)

10.  your honest assessment of your own overall fishing experience level .  (choose one of the following:  novice, intermediate, experienced)

11.  the weight of your personal best bass from your "home lake".

12.  date you caught your personal best bass from your "home lake".

13.  number of fish you have caught within 8 oz. of your personal best bass from your "home lake"

14.  weight of the lake record from your "home lake"

15.  weight of your state record bass.    

[J Francho]

I think the heated debate in this thread is causing global warming.

[paul.]

I think the heated debate in this thread is causing global warming.

i wish it was.  trust me, if it was even a little warmer outside, i wouldn't have spent nearly this much time on this issue. ;D

[.ghoti.]

Dr. Keith Jones has one objective and one objective only. As he does have a good sized brain, and can quickly learn, he had the ability to learn that Berkley writes his paycheck.

That is the best thing said in this thread.

The only thing I'll add is; Anthropomorphism anyone?

[dr.crow]

Ahh - gotta love the conspiracy theorists. But...there's plenty of independent research out there.

I wonder why the Berkley scientists didn't say, "But our research proves that using a Berkley Powerworm will vastly increase the odds that bass will strike repeatedly after being caught." ...or something to that effect.

It may not be anthropomorphism, but by presupposing darker motives behind Berkley scientists, aren't we attributing uniquely specific human characteristics in *perhaps* ourselves to others within the human race? I certainly don't assume they are working for their sales and marketing counterparts. Perhaps Berkey is looking for real answers. And perhaps Berkley realizes if they played that game, they would lose in the long run. But then again, I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I've done enough homework to realize what they are saying isn't any different than what indepent researchers have found. ;D

[tyrius.]

The only thing I'll add is; Anthropomorphism anyone?

Learning through association is not anthropomorphism.  Learning through association is what animals do.  That's how you train your dog to go outside to do his business.  That's how you train your dog to do tricks.  That's how goldfish learn that humans coming up to their tank means that they are going to be fed.  That's how parrots learn to talk. Cows learn not to touch electric fences.  etc, etc, etc.

Animals adjust their behavior (ie learn) through the positive and negative results of external stimuli and/or their own actions.

[dr.crow]

Quote:  "But...there's plenty of independent research out there."

For you consipracy theorists, just remember the universe responds back to you with exactly the thoughts and ideas you send out to it.

Change the way you look at things, and the things you look at will change.

Regarding the analogy, I stand by it:

DWI = fish getting caught on a hook

Getting DWI and then still driving drunk = fish getting caught again because competition with other fish, getting surprised, whatever.  Yeah - it happens even though DWIs DECREASE drunk driving.

Not drinking and driving after having received a DWI = Big FAT Mama Bass that was caught once when she was 2 lbs and you'll never catch her on an artificial lure.  Might better try a live shad.

Point being - don't draw a broad conclusion just because you caught a bass twice on same lure in a relatively short period.  And by the way for you anthropomorphism fans - that is the ONLY point of the analogy.  But I'm sure this will draw more anthropomorphism posts - should keep us going for a while.  LOL :