Bass do learn!!! they are smarter then you think Read this

[Muddy]

I think you have to throw this in the mix Catt;

If a fish can remember, how long can it remember and how is our concept of memory in line with what ever it is they have?-

 What ever this "learned/memory" is how dooes it stand up against thier instinct to eat?

[Muddy]

So conversely Catt; If a bass is a bass no matter where it swims and what their surroundings are like, and have absolutely no memory of dnager/lures >>> then one, bait and one presentation would sooner or later catch all the bass, that's not right either.

[Catt]

Cognitive Ethology: The fusion of cognitive science and classical ethology into cognitive ethology "emphasizes observing animals under more-or-less natural conditions, with the objective of understanding the evolution, adaptation (function), causation, and development of the species-specific behavioral repertoire".

Dr. Jones's explanation of Habituation learning

Habituation This is the type of learning through which bass gradually become less sensitive to particular stimulations. Examples would include fish in an aquarium that no longer shy from people who walk by, or bass that learn to ignore boat traffic on a busy lake.

Cognitive Ethology's explanation

Habituation = Learning to ignore irrelevant stimuli or stimuli that convey little or no information

Animals stop responding to stimuli that do not provide appropriate feedback.

ï Gray squirrels respond to the alarm calls of other squirrels.

They stop responding if the calls are not followed by an attack ("cry-wolf" effect).

Think on those two explanations and the theory of bass learning not to hit lures  

[Muddy]

Thanks Catt; Dr.Jones works for a bait company, I place little faith in what his end results are. They were not published in a peer reviewed scholastic paper anyway, but a book.

I am interested on observations around the country , by fellas here.

This has proven to be an interesting topic to me.There may be no definitive answer, but evidence abounds on all side of this question.

Bass will spook other bass, when agitated or frightened, many of us including me have seen this,

Fish respond to danger, especially schooling fish, which explains their cooperative formations, much like flocks of birds when they are being attacked

[tyrius.]

If bass can truly learn and retain lure memory why are they still being caught?

Because as you say below bass aren't geniuses.  They can not remember every single lure for their entire lives.  Also, each individual fish has not seen/been caught by every single lure/color/retrieve combination possible.

So if it takes a bass more than once to remember a lure before it remembers it then what is the number of times it takes before memory takes place?

This is irrelevent to the discussion as we are first trying to establish IF bass are capable of associating lures with danger or lures with no food value and learning to ignore them.

This study even showed the individual fish has varying degrees of retaining the associative behaviors.  So, the real answer is that it varies fish to fish.

And no I have not been proven wrong do to the fact that where is this decrease in numbers of fish available to be caught due to lure memory. Y'all state this theory over and over but yet bass continue to be caught

This theory is proven when an angler gets the privilege of fishing a body of water than no one else has ever fished.  Everyone that I know (including people who have posted in these threads) who has had this privilege has much more success in the first outings then they do after they have fished it regularly for a period of time.  The angler continues to catch fish, but not at the same rate as the first outing (given similar weather/seasonal conditions).  

This is especially true for baits that do not resemble normal prey.  

Baits that closely resemble normal prey continue to work because while the instance of being caught with the lure provides a negative association that negative association may be counteracted by subsequent positive associations of striking the actual prey and successfully feeding.

Bass are not completely stupid but they are not geniuses either

Sounds exactly like what everyone else is saying.  

[tyrius.]

For a fish in the wild, so many other factors are at play, that fish may react completely differently, and so conclusions drawn from an aquarium experiment could be incorrect.

I disagree completely.  The purpose of this experiment was to determine if bass can learn associative behaviors and then to see if they can retain those associations for a given period of time.

The fact that this occurred in an aquarium is irrelevent to the fact that the experiment clearly shows that bass are able to learn and retain associative behaviors.

Now, the big question becomes how does this apply in the wild, in HUGE lakes, small lakes, and backyard ponds?  How should the angler apply these facts to his/her fishing?  How should it affect lure choice (most soft plastics being shown as the "least" retained/learned)?  What does it take for a fish to learn and retain these same associations in the wild?  How long do they retain those associations?  etc. etc. etc.

[dr.crow]

Tyrius - I understand your point and felt the same way.  I also think there are a lot of conspiracy theorists who throw good scientific data out the window because of general mistrust.  My experience versus a scientist sort of thing.  On the otherhand, there is truth that extending laboratory data into the field can easily lead to wrong conclusions.  One must always be extremely wary of that.  I develop additives for engine oils, and there are many lab tests to demonstrate a formulation provides good oxidation control, prevents wear, etc.  But the car manufacturers don't want to rely on a lab test, so instead they spend millions running the fluids in actual engines in actual cars and taxis.  The reason?  Mistrust of lab data and wanting real world data.

The real world of a bass in a lake or pond is vastly different than an aquarium, so now I believe it is actually a good point that more work should be done on "wild" bass to answer this question.

[paul.]

to me this issue of bass "intelligence" (how much they actually learn) is inseparably linked to the truth (whatever that may be) about whether bass are basically cookie cutter clones of each other whether each adult bass is to some degree an "individual" within the system with its own "personality", preferences, and behavior patterns.

if adult bass do indeed have and develop different "personalities", preferences, and behaviors, is this just the natural order of things? in other words, is this just a trait of the species that inevitably the bass within a given system will start exhibiting their own "personality" regardless of the stimuli they are exposed to? or, to some degree, does the stimuli, both positive and negative, actually determine what type of "personality" the fish will develop? or is it a little of both?

when you factor in the "personality" question, it puts a very interesting spin on the "intelligence" question. if bass inevitably develop their own personalities (i.e. wary vs. curious, prefers deep water vs. prefers shallow water, etc.) regardless of stimuli, then is it their preferences and behaviors that makes one seem "smarter" than another and more difficult to catch when in reality there is no difference at all in their "level" of intelligence?

                                    -OR-

if bass develop their own "personalities", even partly, DUE TO the stimuli they experience does this not prove without question that some are indeed "smarter" than others because they were able to develop behaviors, patterns, and preferences in response to and because of the stimuli they experienced that made them more difficult catch?

another question that comes to mind as we study this is, exactly what is "smart" anyway? suppose a farmer decides to start feeding the bass in his pond minnows every week. half of the bass population figures out what is going on and before long, these fish are there waiting on the farmer at the spot he feeds them every day. meanwhile, the other half, for whatever reason, never picks up on this and has to scrounge out their own meals from the available forage with the pond. the fed bass become fat and healthy. the unfed bass lag behind. i ask you, which bass are the smart ones?

but wait a minute, the story is not over. suppose after feeding half his bass population for a year, the farmer decides he wants a fish dinner. he promptly shows up at his regular time at the pond with a bucket of minnows and a fishing pole and proceeds to catch every one of the fat, healthy fish that he has gorged on minnows for months and puts a mess of fish in his freezer. now i ask again, which bass are the smart ones?

curious to get y'all's answers, especially on the "personality" stuff.

[Muddy]

Paul: I can not say if different Bass have different "personalities" I will be more aware, if I know where a certain bass is hanging out in the lake, THAT IS AN INTERSTING QUESTION 8-)

[Mattlures]

Ha Ha Catt, yes I cant spell and I dont care to go back and spell check. It is not important to me. But you got the point.

Muddy you are wise not to accept everything people try to feed you. However the research goes along with what I and probably everybody else has seen and experienced for themselfs. Weather they except it or not.

[Muddy]

Hey Matt let's see if they get smart to your baby bass, got my first Mattlures ,baby bass in Perch from SLOMOE :-?

[dr.crow]

Alrighty then.

[thetr20one]

Just my $.02. Bass are not intelligent but, are very instinctive. Every living creature has some sort of short term memory. Some must be shorter than others because a bass will sometimes repeatedly hit lures and be hooked, get off, and come back after THE SAME LURE. Most noticeably to me are jerkbaits and smallmouth which on Erie you can watch em come up, smash the lure, get played, get off, and come right back after the lure. To me this has always seemed the instinctive behavior of not wasting effort. I pitch "creature" baits that look alien  to fish that are off and running before I turn my reel handle. This to me has always seemed to be instinctive behavior also either of a defensive or hunger/hoarding position. Never in my fishing have I thought a bass or any other fish to have ANY level of "RATIONAL THOUGHT". You would like to think that these fish that fool you are "SMART" but, they are wild animals that must kill, eat, and react to nature by using instinct not thought. You are just a part of their nature. Do you really think a fish that can feel sound pressure doesn't hear your trolling motor,waves slapping your hull or the ping of your sonar? Like most other wild creatures, bass use instinct over every other sense they may have.

[Bassaholic84]

You know Deer arent to smart either but they definetely know when they are being hunted and the BIG BUCKS most of them, after rut you only see at night.  

Every bass is diffrerent they have genetics too so there smarts are passed down too.  So some are smart and some are stupid and im sure not many of the stupid ones make it to 7lbs.

BASSTIMES had a real good article on this and it gave lots of thoughts from pros and if i remember correctly many of them agreed they learned.  Thats why they use a lot less spinnerbaits

[Tin]

I would rather cut myself with a dull razor countless times then jump in a pool of acid than even try to think or understand this thread....

[MARSH MASTER]

BASSTIMES had a real good article on this and it gave lots of thoughts from pros and if i remember correctly many of them agreed they learned. Thats why they use a lot less spinnerbaits

I think this is a joke if the bass are remembering spinnerbaits don't you think it took them long enough? How long have anglers been throwing these baits? I bet if you told Hank Parker this he would laugh. I think anglers are looking to deep into this and loosing confidence.

[paul.]

in a way, i kind of feel sorry for someone who does not have access to small clear water lakes.  you can learn so much by putting your rod down sometimes and just watching.  it certainly does not seem to make the fish any easier to catch, but you can definitely learn a ton if you just observe.  how useful your findings might be in terms of actually helping you catch fish is questionable.  different for different folks i guess.

having had the benefit of fishing several small, clear water lakes over a period of several years, my conviction is that some adult bass do develop distinct "personalities", preferences, patterns, and behaviors.  once you get to "know" these fish, you don't even have to rely on their markings to recognize them many times.  with some you can actually tell which fish it is by the way it acts or by where or when you spot it once you've spent enough time around them.  some fish are extremely aggressive by nature and i remember one 2 pounder in particular that would chase fish twice its size away from a group of bluegill it was stalking.  saw it do this many times.  others seem to be quite curious, and will swim right up to you and look at you as if to study you while you are studying them.  others seem almost apathetic.  they will swim right by you and pay no regard whatsoever.  others seem cautiously interested in your presence and will study you from a distance.  still others are so wary and cautious that you'd never know they were in there and never see them at all, except when you catch them.  the interesting thing is, at least to me, that once i have gotten to "know" these fish, the same fish consistently exhibit the same traits.

until you catch one that is.  

then a fish will completely change it's "personality".  funny thing is, that it always seem to revert back to it's original and "established "personality" unless it is caught repeatedly.  in that case it seems to take longer and longer for it to "become itself" again each time it is caught.  fish that i have caught repeatedly sometimes change their "personality" and behavior patterns permanently.  i am not speculating, guessing, or supposing here.  these are things i have seen with my own eyes with fish that i "know" and recognize by sight in some of the places i fish.  

just throwing that out there for whatever it's worth in this discussion.  perhaps others have experienced the same type of things.      

[thetr20one]

You know Deer arent to smart either but they definetely know when they are being hunted and the BIG BUCKS most of them, after rut you only see at night.

Every bass is diffrerent they have genetics too so there smarts are passed down too. So some are smart and some are stupid and im sure not many of the stupid ones make it to 7lbs.

BASSTIMES had a real good article on this and it gave lots of thoughts from pros and if i remember correctly many of them agreed they learned. Thats why they use a lot less spinnerbaits

Deer are stupid in a different way. Their brains are more developed than a fish. However a deer has no idea it is actually being hunted. It just realizes intrusion into it's territory. Whether it be you, me, a wolf, a bear or whatever it uses it's superior sense of smell, and low light level vision to evade a PREDATOR. Which then puts predator/prey into effect which is all a part of it's "nature". I was hunting with my friend and shot a doe at 15 yards during gun season with a muzzloader when the smoke cleared there stood 4 other does that were with her, my friend shot another. Point being, the other deer had no clue as to what had just happened. After the second one was down the others ran no more than 40 yards loosely regrouped and then acted as if the whole event had not happened. I have another instance I shot on video of the same friend shooting another deer in the same situation with similar results this time one of the deer actually ran strait towards us, then turned went through a thicket regrouped with it's friends and carried on their way in no hurry. And the big buck thing is more of a point of bucks in general being highly territorial and not social in any way to anything, with the exception of summer when they will sometimes form bachelor groups for reasons I cannot recall right now. And the reason for the daytime disappearance is generally because that is when humans are most active.

[bmadd]

I think bass do learn and over time shy away from certain lures and or techniques. I think the big thing your missing Catt is that fish continue to be caught and will be because there is an unlimited combination of factors that change the way a fish will see these lures. The clarity of the water plus the 12 different color selections of one worm could give you multiple visuals to a fish. Then, to add to that, the angler may twitch, drag, hop, swim, dead stick, or any combination of those techniques plus things he doesn't even mean to do could add to those variations of the same lure that the fish is seeing. Then add to the fact that it will look different coming through thick grass than it would being dropped under a dock or beside a log. You can go on and on with the possible "ways" a lure can be viewed by a bass. I think they do learn but to expect them to see all presentations and colors and recognize danger with each one in their lifetime is crazy. That is why I think that fish learn but there will always be a chance for the same fish to be caught.

[Bassaholic84]

I think this is a joke if the bass are remembering spinnerbaits don't you think it took them long enough? How long have anglers been throwing these baits? I bet if you told Hank Parker this he would laugh. I think anglers are looking to deep into this and loosing confidence.

Now they were talking about tournament fishing and im pretty sure it was kvd who was saying it, so he could of meant they see so many from "weekend anglers" he wants to throw something they havent seen.  KVD always has his own style and power fishes when everyone thinks you should finnesse thats why hes the angler of the year AGAIN

[thetr20one]

in a way, i kind of feel sorry for someone who does not have access to small clear water lakes. you can learn so much by putting your rod down sometimes and just watching. it certainly does not seem to make the fish any easier to catch, but you can definitely learn a ton if you just observe. how useful your findings might be in terms of actually helping you catch fish is questionable. different for different folks i guess.

having had the benefit of fishing several small, clear water lakes over a period of several years, my conviction is that some adult bass do develop distinct "personalities", preferences, patterns, and behaviors. once you get to "know" these fish, you don't even have to rely on their markings to recognize them many times. with some you can actually tell which fish it is by the way it acts or by where or when you spot it once you've spent enough time around them. some fish are extremely aggressive by nature and i remember one 2 pounder in particular that would chase fish twice its size away from a group of bluegill it was stalking. saw it do this many times. others seem to be quite curious, and will swim right up to you and look at you as if to study you while you are studying them. others seem almost apathetic. they will swim right by you and pay no regard whatsoever. others seem cautiously interested in your presence and will study you from a distance. still others are so wary and cautious that you'd never know they were in there and never see them at all, except when you catch them. the interesting thing is, at least to me, that once i have gotten to "know" these fish, the same fish consistently exhibit the same traits.

until you catch one that is.

then a fish will completely change it's "personality". funny thing is, that it always seem to revert back to it's original and "established "personality" unless it is caught repeatedly. in that case it seems to take longer and longer for it to "become itself" again each time it is caught. fish that i have caught repeatedly sometimes change their "personality" and behavior patterns permanently. i am not speculating, guessing, or supposing here. these are things i have seen with my own eyes with fish that i "know" and recognize by sight in some of the places i fish.

just throwing that out there for whatever it's worth in this discussion. perhaps others have experienced the same type of things.      

Agreed. Kinda I think.

I haven't fished a pond or any other super small body of water in a long, long time. What I have done is spent countless hours on Erie and a few other clear lakes and watched myself and friends fish for fish we could see. Or in water that you could watch a fish trailing a crank, jerkbait or other swimming lure. Not one would act the same as the other. I was standing next to my brother-in-law we both cast to the same general area and were retrieving our cranks, he said check it out. I looked and there were 8-10 smallies following his just then from nowhere a fish outside the group smashed his lure, the others disappeared and no more than 3 winds later I also had a fish on. Was it from the group of followers? I don't know I stopped paying attention to my bait for those seconds. Things like this have happened numerous times and for the most part try to talk with conviction only of what I know. For my age I would be willing to bet my time on the water and in the woods is comparable with any hardcore non-guiding sportsman and way beyond average. With the exception of this past year. I have seen things I can't explain or even guess why they happened and I have also made predictions of certain events based on prior similiar events that have went down exactly as I thought they would. Then other predictions that went completely the opposite way.

[dr.crow]

What kind of experiment would tell us what we want to know?  What if you took a pond or small lake and every time you caught a fish you tagged it.  You would only use one type of lure for this experiment and use it repeatedly.  Each day or week you would record total caught, tagged and untagged.  You might have to tag it with the date it was caught so you could track time between subsequent catches.  Seems this would be an excellent study - would still have to work out the details of how it would work, but seems like it would be very interesting and a step closer to reality than an aquarium.  Now all we need is someone with a private stocked pond who can conduct the experiment...

[5bass]

[postsmovedhere1] 51 [postsmovedhere2] General Bass Fishing Forum [move by] five.bass.limit.

[Tin]

I feel bad for you 5bl. ;D

[dr.crow]

Warmwater Fisheries: Symposium I (1991)

edited by James L. Cooper, R. H. Hamre

Edition: illustrated

Published by DIANE Publishing, 1999

ISBN 0788182447, 9780788182440

407 pages