Bass do learn!!! they are smarter then you think Read this

[Bassn Blvd]

Are the fish being returned to the same lake after each day or removed?  

If removed, how many ?

If removed, then the population is being reduced so naturally the number caught is going to drop which may make it more difficult to catch the same amount as day 1.  Not necessarily because they are used to the bait.

Look at this scenario.  

I fish a 110 acre lake/pond.  This body of water is closed off from any canal, lake or other body of water.  The lake is fed from a couple aquafers though.

Only 3 people have access to this lake to fish but each person can bring a guest. The lake is fished  once a week from 1 to 4 anglers at a time.  My best 7 hour day is just over 140 bass.

Yesterday, my brother and I went out for 2.5 hours and caught between 25-30 bass. Another guy on the lake and his buddy caught the same as us. We fished the exact amount of time.

The 4 baits I fish on this lake are :

worms

jigs

crankbaits

spook/topwater.

ALL  fish are catch and release.  

How long do we have before we can't catch anymore fish on the lures presented?

[Mattlures]

Catt you continualy change waht people are posting to try and fit your argumant. You keep trying to say if a fish hit a lure once and gets caught it wont ever do it again. YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE SAYING THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the study in the aqurium said they fish hit the bait less each time they treid it. LESS!!!!!! meaning they did not learn instantly. GET IT???? probably not. it takes time and some animals learn faster then other. Does a dog sit the first time you teach it to? no it takes a bunch of times with treats or priase. Does a dog learn not to poop in the house the first time you scold or beat it? No usualy it takes a few times. Fish are probably no where near as smart as dogs. For a single fish to completly stop eating lures it would need a lot of negative experiances. Plus we dont know how long they remember. So on your lake X if every single angler threw the exact same bait the fish would become conditioned to it over time. Not instantly but over time. Some quicker then others. Of coure the new fish would not learn untill they were caught several times. That would also deoend on the particular bait. So that is why a single bait that works will never totaly stop working. You could never apply that much continued pressure. and even if yyou did there are always new fish. Its the older more experianced fish that make fewer mistakes. they have learned to aviod certan baits,sounds,shadows, etc.

There is way to much evidence to support the FACT that fish learn/adapt/condition/instinct etc. The only way you can even argue is to change what people are saying. I do totaly respect your opinions but you have been totaly and completly proven wrong on this issue.

I do admire your stubonness though  

[paul.]

bb i don't think you have anything to worry about. jay and matt both made a very good point that there is no way that all the bass in a system of any size could ever be completely conditioned or educated. i believe that as well. hopefully, your fish's stupidity will last until i can get down there and be your guest at this honey hole.

and a thought about the sticks, rocks, grass, etc. in bass stomachs. could it be that a certain portion of these are ingested accidentally in the process of the bass eating or attempting to eat real food? i really don't think that bass intentionally eat these things, at least most of the time. an example of what i'm talking about would be a bass sucking in a small rock off the bottom as it also sucks in a crayfish.

i did catch a bass once that seemed extremely skinny and malnourished except for an enormously large belly. i pulled no less than 8 soft plastic baits out of this fish's stomach. i figure the fish was diseased and was so sick it couldn't hunt anymore so the old, discarded soft plastics in the lake were the only things it could "catch". this fish was either stupid or just desperate to survive.      

[CJ]

I've really enjoyed reading the threads revolving around this topic. There has been great input!

Some fish are stupid, some are not. I'll bet I caught more dumb fish than smart ones.

[George Welcome]

One of the assumptions being made in these threads is that being caught is a major negative experience for bass. Do bass know fear? Do bass experience pain from the experience? Most animals who experience fear cower once they know what caused that fear. So much to think about - so much research to do.

I'm going fishing, and the ones that bite I will enjoy, and the ones that don't, I don't care about.

[_Coelacanth_]

Just to add to what Matt stated about negative reinforcement

Just because a fish hits a lure one time, it isn't enough to cause a lasting negative impression to that lure. It's not just because of the individual fish or the lure though. It's simply a matter of percentages.

Take for instance a large lake that has a high population of Crappie. Bass are going to feed on the young, smaller crappie. If you present a lure that imitates a 2-3 Crappie, chances are the Bass is going to eat it. This is one of its main food sources. If it's a good enough imitation, etc., it's likely to get hit.

When this happens, it creates a negative reinforcement to that particular food source. This particular Bass might feed on other things for a while afterwards. But after eating crawfish, worms, etc. it's going to eventually see another baby Crappie swim by. Hunger will drive it to prey on this food source again and since this time, it was a real Crappie, there is no negative feedback for its actions. Repeat this several times and the negative feedback it received previously is overridden by the positive reinforcement it has now been receiving (i.e. satisfying its hunger). Now if presented with another Crappie imitation, it will likely strike at the perceived prey again.

To add to this scenario, now the Bass has been caught again but this time associates not only the Crappie as a negative reinforcement, but it also adds the sounds of a trolling motor, or other man-made sounds into its memory. It does this because the man-made sounds were present in both instances. Eventually the negative connotation to the Crappie imitation may be removed, (due to repeated feedings without the presence of man-made sounds) but combine the two again, both Crappie and human sounds, and the fish may avoid them.

I think the fish in aquariums learn to avoid lures faster because of the always present influence of man. In the wild, there are more chances for them to have the positive feedback of a real meal when we as fisherman are not present.

Just my thoughts to add to the debate.  

[5bass]

I havent responded on this subject yet so here it goes.

I believe that bass can learn in the short term. For instance, a bass is caught on a crankbait on Friday. He sees the same crank on Saturday and Sunday but doesn't take it. Then M-F the next week, he doesnt see any baits, then all the sudden on the next Saturday, he sees the same crank and smashes it.

I just dont think they can retain their knowledge for long periods of time.

[CWB]

Had a 6 lb+ break me off on a Sluggo a few years back. Re-rigged ,cast back to the exact same spot and caught the same fish on the next cast and got my Sluggo back. Last summer I had a monster wrap me around a post that a Pontoon boat was tied to. Broke me off and took my Senko. Later the next day I pulled a 7 lber out from under the same boat with my Senko still in his mug. Maybe their short term memory stinks.

[MARSH MASTER]

Really with the size of there brain how long do ya'll think there memory is? I believe you can catch the same bass on the same bait the very next day maybe not in the same spot. Bass are predator's of opportunity I don't believe they're like a lion and go and stalk there prey. They wait for the right time when they're feeding.

Think about this. If your fishing bedding bass and you catch the buck off the bed. You put the buck back in the water and he goes right back and will hit it again.

[Wayne P.]

I just remembered something that was mentioned at the Expo yesterday by the last presenter at the Hawg Trough. He asked where is the most pressured body of water. After several answers that no one named correctly, he said "the Hawg Trough". For three days and several hours each day, the bass had seen the same presentations numberous times. Kevin Van Dam, Dean Rojas, and some local guides had held seminars on that super clear "body of water". As he was finishing up his presentation and demonstrating lures, each presentation, drop shot, Senko, swimbait, spinnerbait, and crankbait got several strikes from the bass with several following that lost the race to hit it. I saw Dean Rojas do his Kermey demo on two different days. The bass kept taking it . There was a small school of baitfish in the tank Sunday that was fed to the bass that morning and the bass would even go thru the baitfish school to hit lures either on the surface, below them, or at the same level. Them bass must have been "good ole boys" ;D

[Muddy]

One of the assumptions being made in these threads is that being caught is a major negative experience for bass. Do bass know fear? Do bass experience pain from the experience? Most animals who experience fear cower once they know what caused that fear. So much to think about - so much research to do.

I'm going fishing, and the ones that bite I will enjoy, and the ones that don't, I don't care about.

 

THATS A GOOD POINT

[Mattlures]

I would imagine that a bass's memory varies between fish. It would also be influenced by how many times it ate that crank bait. Yes I could see the same fish hitting a week later but what about the time after that, I think it would take longer each time and at some point if it kept happening it would assosiate danger with it and stop eating it all together.  Again this depends on the bait and fish. I would think a crank bait would be "learned" faster becuase of how unnatural it is.

This is of course a guess though. I think some info is retained short term and some long term.

Catt aslo asked the question of " if bass kept being harrassed when they spawn then wouldnt they lean to spawn deeper?" HMMMM funny he asked that becuase that is exactly what they do out here in our clear pressured waters. Of course they need sunlight or the eaggs wont live so The bigger older smarter ones spawn as deep as they can while still getting some sunlight penatration. Imagine that

[5bass]

Think about this. If your fishing bedding bass and you catch the buck off the bed. You put the buck back in the water and he goes right back and will hit it again.

....and how many times have you put the buck in the livewell and made cast after cast after cast to the female and she just doesn't even acknowledge there's a bait in sight?

Strange things happen during the spawn. All rules are put on hold during the spawn.

[Muddy]

I absolutely am feeling you 4 bizzle I have 4 years of logs that suggest that fish on smaller public waters, HEAVILY PRESSURED and seeing a certain lure over and over again MAY FOR SOME REASON AVOID THAT LURE! And then when the nest class of bass say reach around 11 to 13 inches that lure comes hot for those bass mainly.

We have to be careful about putting human traits on to fish like the power to reason , and if they have long term memory

You want to know if fish feel fear; Ask anyone who fishes gin clear water, catch or spook one bass and just their movements along can spook the rest of the fish. How do you know they are spooked: their gills start to flare, the dart rapidly around and literally try and bury themselves in cover

Every lake is not the lake we fish on. Every lake is not Toledo Bend or Mauch Chunk and if you deny the fish can act differently from place to place, Then one pattern would catch every bass in all the USA>

I absolutely respect you Catt, what you have taught me is invaluable, sooner or later a student has to think for themselves, and teachers can miss things. You do seem to be changing what some of us are saying, as making a number for pressure on Toledo Bend and when I used it you increased the number bu 4,400 fisherman which still left t Toldeo vastly under pressured when compared to the Chunk, on any given day

I think since all the men in this discussion are reputable that it is pointing out that on different bodies of water we see different things, there is no denying this.

 Please lets keep this civil, this is a great topic with much to learn

[Muddy]

IMO I think this whole argument is subjective and relative.

"Fish are smarter than we give them credit for"

Well, I think some fish are smarter than some people give them credit for. Some people throw the same bait in the same location because they were killing them there before. They don't stop to think are the conditions the same, etc... These guys are NOT as smart as they give themselves credit for.

Some fish are dumber than some people give them credit for. Darwin does work in the fish world too I assume. The fittest survive and live long enough to become lunkers by learning. Some fish will hit the same thing over and over because those are the dumb ones of the group.

Depending upon the fishing pressure, population of fish, etc they 'learn' at different paces. Whether or not a fish is 'educated' doesn't mean you're guaranteed to catch them or get skunked. Remember there are different kinds of strikes right.

Bottom line for me is don't overthink it; if you have the time to go fishing, go fishing. Enjoy your time outside whether the fish in your lake/pond are smart or stupid.

Excellent! I think we Humanize fish too much

[Bassn Blvd]

Paul, I don't think I have anything to worry about either.  I know the fish in my scenario aren't conditioned to not hit.  That's what I was trying to say by mentioning how often this lake is fished and with the same baits.  We still pull out numbers on a regular basis.  And if by chance we don't, on a particular day, then I attribute it to the weather or other natural phenomena.

Now get your ARS down here and teach me some techniques on locating/catching the big ones in there.  I'm stuck on 8# and my buddy 9.13 so I know they are in there.

[dr.crow]

That's very hard for me to buy, as you are putting human traits and thought processes onto pea brained fish. I don't buy that.

It is an analogy to assist understanding.  The aquarium experiment demonstrates bass become accustomed to lures, pea brain or no.  All the discussion on logic versus negative association is irrelevent - experiments have demonstrated they "learn" to not bite certain things.  

The broader question, then, was - can such an experiment be applied to a bass in the wild, and so the analogy was provided to assist understanding that there are still many variables involved (some may learn faster than others, some are younger and less experienced, some have never seen a lure, etc etc).  That's whyh controlled experiments are so important - eliminate as many variables as you can in order to really measure a cause and effect.

[dr.crow]

Furthermore, I just went and re-read the conclusions, which were: "What's it all mean for the bass angler? While there are no hard and fast rules in fishing, the research certainly seems to suggest that anglers should try different lures in the same areas, especially areas they fish regularly or that are heavily pressured."

I wonder if anyone here disagree with this statement?

[dr.crow]

One of Catts original posts several pages back did get me to really think more on this aquarium experiment, and I believe he may be correct that this set of conditions stacked the odds in favor of the fish not repeating hitting lures - no cover, repeated conditioning, etc.  It is in fact a great point.

For a fish in the wild, so many other factors are at play, that fish may react completely differently, and so conclusions drawn from an aquarium experiment could be incorrect.

I still have a hard time imagining the effect will be ZERO - it may not be nearly as high as an aquarium "pet" displays, but it very well may not be ZERO effect either.  At least those experiments demonstrated that the tendency and capability to become lure shy is there, right?  How much that translates into the wild is still to be determined.

[SirSnookalot]

Bass are not the wariest of fish in fact I think they are pretty easy to catch, either they on or off.  The older I get the more I go back to basics and my production has not suffered.  I carry a few lures, spoons or spinners and sooner or later we catch them.

Outside influences can curtail your efforts.  Right now in my part of Florida they are spraying for weeds in some of the lakes and canals, every year about this time the bite is slow, in a few weeks once this poison is disspated the bite will be back to normal.

[Muddy]

Great,perfect person to ask this to. Hey Mr.Snook since I see your age, you can help with some of the puzzle

Are the Lures you are using older than 20 years old?

Are they lures that typically Bass would not see regularly today?

When were those lures hot historically, are they as hot today?

Do you notice some lures typically being effective in cycles?

Are those same lures catching basically the same size/age bass in bodies of water that have fish of various size/age on them?

Thanks I am curious for your answers

oh and what Lures if you do not mind

Dominick

[SirSnookalot]

All my lures are new. I fish x-raps size 8 & 10, recently I found a lure called a "baze minnow", fishes higher in the water column, works well in shallow Florida canals and lakes. Lots of weeds here so I use plastics rigged weedless. I like the Mepps spoons with a single hook. Bite is slow I go to a spinner like a Panther or Mepps. Probably 90% of my freshwater fishing is done in my backyard, I have 5 ponds and a canal here, peacocks, myans, tilapia snd oscars as well. When the wind is down I go out with a fly rod.

I try new things but seem to go back to my basics.

I see you're only a few years younger than me.

[Muddy]

Thanks, Yea a few years younger. I am trying to find out from long term fisherman, in different parts of the country and on different types of water, if there is any correlation to bass getting accostomed to not bittting lures

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

[SirSnookalot]

Thanks for the inquiry, yes I have been doing this a while, my dad staring taking me at about age 5.  I learned a lot from him, I don't know how he learned so much, he was a city boy, lol.

Before retireing to Florida I lived on a lake in Michigan just oustside of Detroit.  Many days after work I would row the shore line with a nightcrawler harness, may have been the most productive method I ever did.  Great stress reliever as well.

I hear the blufish bite is on at the beach so I'm to hit the surf for a couple of hours.

[Catt]

If bass can truly learn and retain lure memory why are they still being caught?

So if it takes a bass more than once to remember a lure before it remembers it then what is the number of times it takes before memory takes place?

And no I have not been proven wrong do to the fact that where is this decrease in numbers of fish available to be caught due to lure memory. Y'all state this theory over and over but yet bass continue to be caught

Bass are not completely stupid but they are not geniuses either

(Catt aslo asked the question of " if bass kept being harrassed when they spawn then wouldnt they lean to spawn deeper?") Talk about changing what someone said! I would never make that many spelling errors in such a short sentence.