pet bass

[tyrius.]

Simple, its unethical. Without any knowledge of fish keeping, he'll be literally torturing the fish to death. Sounds like "fun" huh.

Not that I disagree with your original points or anything, but how is it different to buy a 20 gal tank and pet store fish first.  Wouldn't those fish go through the same issues and be "tortured to death"?  As a caveat I don't know jack about aquariums so there may be a big difference that I don't know about.  Hence my question.

[grimlin]

Last i checked biggie and tu pac got killed because of "haters".....

Haters is a very strong word....Walk up to any rapper and tell them "you a hater" and see what happens.

Educate yourself on keeping fish before doing so....opinions are a dime a dozen,everybody has one.

[Low_Budget_Hooker]

For the record, I might sound angry, but I'm not at all. I just enjoy a good argument 8-)

I don't take you that way Tony, you raise good points and are representing his opinion well.  There are just 2 opposite yet firm opinions here.

[IdahoLunkerHunter]

Last i checked biggie and tu pac got killed because of "haters".....

That is funny because my Pacu's names are Biggie and Tupac But they aren't haters, they are vegetarians hehe.

I myself have a 125 gallon tank and have two 19" Pacu's, two 8" Jack Dempseys, (7) 2-5 inch Convicts, a 6" red tailed shark, (3) 4" ciclids, an a 12" gypsy tiger pleco. I have a Eheim 2260 Canister Filter and a emporor 400 wheel filter on this tank.

A 25 Gallon community tank with about 20 misc fish.

I also have a 35 gallon tank with about 20 1-3 inch black convicts I use for breeding. It takes a lot of time and food does get expensive. There is also a 5" pleco in this one also. The Plecos are definetly something you need in your tanks. They do a great job of cleaning tanks. I uaully clean my tanks about once every two months. and check the ph once a week.

I would start with a smaller tank and work your way up.

[Raul]

And if it dies I'll buy a fish from the store until I've perfected keeping a fish THEN I will go catch my little bass:)

Ok, let 's suppose you learn to keep the fish, now let 's suppose it 's legal to keep the fish, now then let 's move on a little bit further, Little ? how little ?, the only "little" bass you can go, fish and keep has to be of legal size, how small is the legal size keeper in your state ? cuz if it ain 't 10 inches then you 're gonna need a big tank for it, somewhere over 30 galons and move up as it grows which means you 'll need some dough to purchase the proper equipment to furnish the tank.

When my friend Jorge had the tackle store I did install an aquarium and kept a bass, at first it wasn 't that easy to feed, the critter only took live fish for lunch, with time, patience and a little bit of "starvation" ( not exactly starvation but limited ammounts of food ) I could train the fish to take non living food, he learned that everything we threw at him was food so it was easier to teach him to eat fish fillet chunks, it really ended up being a pain in the neck so I released it.

Not saying that you shouldn 't keep a bass as a pet, if it 's legal for you to keep the fish, if the fish is of legal size I have no problem, I 'm just telling you in advance what you are going to encounter in the future, it 's your time, your money and your effort, but as they say, the very young don 't always do what they are told.

[IdahoLunkerHunter]

I would also say if you are interested in a "Fresh Water Bass Tank" you can buy Cichlia ocellaris (Peacock Bass) which are much more colorful than largies. This way if you buy a 1 to 2" aquarium bred fish it will be much easier to keep alive than transfering a live animal.

All I know is keeping fish alive in an aquarium is all about maitenence and your commitment. Before your transfer, if you do buy fish, you should do your research about the living environment of the fish.

[pokey]

I have over the past ten years plus kept just about every freshwater fish that can be purchased. You do learn alot by trial and error. I don't think anybody that has kept fish in an aquarium can honestly say they haven't accidentally killed a fish. It is definately a learning experience. I thought originally i knew enough through what i thought was enough research, only to realize i didn't know half of what i thought i did. So you learn. While i agree it would be better to start off small and work your way up to bigger fish it sounds like you are trying to become well educated on the subject to enter in a little higher on the scale of things. I too have noticed the Youtube videos of pet bass and fully agree they are "personable" and very entertaining, but i would offer this up . I am by no means an expert or claim to be, I have noticed some good information on the videos, but don't follow them to the letter of the law or assume because you see the fish swimming around in a tank they are doing it correctly. I could point out something they are doing wrong in just about all the videos.Some basic pointer i could give would be: Get the absolute largest tank you can possibly get. If "I" were keeping a very small(under 6 inches) bass I would go NO SMALLER than a 55 gallon tank for one fish. The more water you have the better the water conditions and ability to keep them in the required parameters. Think about if you HAD to swim around in your own poop and pee(I know there are filters but stay with me) would you rather be in a five gallon bucket or a pool? I choose pool.Also educate yourself on the ammonia cycle, this info alone will get you well on your way. Also buy some Cycle at any aquarium store. This is a  benefically bacteria which consumes ammonia and will start to colonize your filter and any other pourus surface in your tank. This stuff IS MAGIC.(not really magic but it works d**n good).If you need any assistance or answers to questions without raising a ruckus p.m. me and i will be glad to help. other than that read, read, read, and you'll do fine. Bass are hearty

[Kase]

I would look into a SUMP system for filtration. check out Reef Central.com , in the large tank section for ideas on sump system. I know it's a Saltwater site, but the equipment/idea can still be used in Freshwater aquariums. I had many aqurium and I have keep a few Peacock/Pacus/Arowana(not all at once) in a 90 gallon with a 135 gallon sump with no issue byside them out grown the tank in a few years.

If you do keep LM, make sure you get a bottom feeder and Alge eater too.

The big they are the more they eat and the more poop they produce.

All i can say is water quality is key and to get that is a good filtration system.  

[SuskyDude]

[roadwarrior]

Well, I haven't been following this thread, but after

reading SuskyDude's post, I decided to check it out.

Got to give SuskyDude five stars for his reply: to the

point, polite and informative.

8-)

[Tokyo Tony]

SuskyDude, thanks for taking the time to respond. Since you offered, you can consider my response below my official "holler back"  ;D

So your point was, "The ethics that encompass the two situations are different. I guess to put it simply: Kill a bass but learn from it: acceptable. Kill a bass (slowly and painfully) because you didn't want to learn about it: not acceptable."

What if a novice fishkeeper kills a bass because of improper treatment, but he learns from his mistake and goes on to keep many fish until they die of old age? By what you said, that would be ethical, and who's to say the fishkeeper in question won't do this?

What if a novice fisherman kills a bass and doesn't learn from it, continuing to deep-hook and kill many bass over the years? By what you said, that would be unethical.

Your explanation of the difference between death by fisherman and death by fishkeeper isn't coherent.

Further, who's to say a fish that dies in a tank suffers more than one who dies at the hands of a novice fisherman? A gill hooked fish can certainly suffocate slowly, or a hook in the gullet can prevent him from swallowing his food so that he slowly starves to death, or an infection in his mouth can prevent him from being able to catch his prey also resulting in a slow death by starvation. On the other hand, a bass in a tank can die quickly if the aerator craps out. You can probably think of better examples of a quick death in a tank than I can.

Pain (also stress) is another topic altogether. Bass don't feel pain like we do, so we can't relate to what they "feel" in any way whatsoever. Even to speak of what it's like to be a bass is essentially talking jibberish. We can agree, however, that bass don't feel pain like we do, so it's wrong to think of a slowly dying bass in terms of how we would feel if we were slowly dying. That brings me back to one of my original points: that bass are outside the scope of ethics; therefore, no act against a bass can be considered unethical (unless it encourages similar, bad acts against humans).

Regarding education: I admit I forgot he already went out and brought a bass back into a tank on a whim before asking about it. Regardless, even though he's on a bass fishing forum, he is now trying to educate himself, and he has gotten a lot of good information. Where better to ask about anything than BassResource.com?  

Also, tyrius brought up a good point: chichlids and other small aquarium fish are outside the scope of ethics but bass aren't? Where do you draw the line?

I think my argument still stands: there is virtually no difference between unintentionally killing a bass from fishing and killing one from fishkeeping.

P.S. I guess I got it wrong on the hater thing. I didn't mean it strongly, but more like:

"Don't you think you've had enough to drink already?"

"Aww, don't be a hater!"

8-)

[Low_Budget_Hooker]

Also, tyrius brought up a good point: chichlids and other small aquarium fish are outside the scope of ethics but bass aren't? Where do you draw the line?

Draw the line between farm raised fish for pet stores and a wild gamefish.

[tyrius.]

Also, tyrius brought up a good point: chichlids and other small aquarium fish are outside the scope of ethics but bass aren't? Where do you draw the line?

Draw the line between farm raised fish for pet stores and a wild gamefish.

Seems kind of arbitrary no?  Would their be a difference if he bought a couple fingerlings from a hatchery?

[kayl.]

Many fish are not aquacultured and are wild-caught.  Breeding programs are on the upswing though.

[SuskyDude]

Tokyo-

I know your just playin' playa'! 8-) Good ball, I'll volley back.

Fish are killed by novice fish keepers, as well as novice and expert fishermen alike.

The way I see it, is that the fisherman's fish got to live a natural life. It may have suffered, it may not have, but it lived the way it was supposed to, and its dead body does not go to waste.

You can't say this about the bass in the tank.

Sure, fish keepers are allowed a few dead fish. But not if they kill the fish by way of pure ignorance and neglect. Keeping a bass healthy is a pretty big undertaking. Any serious research into the subject would uncover this. So to me, if a person went and took a wild bass out of it's environment without any knowledge or experience in keeping fish, deprives it from a natural life, and kills it, they made a bad, if not unethical, choice.

The pain/suffering a bass may or may not feel and how it releates to fishing and fish keeping is a debate that could go all night long, but I have no intention of doing that. In the end, I feel the whole thing breaks down to how much "stewardship" you feel man deserves to have over wild animals.

I, for one, don't feel you have the right to keep bass confined without ANY fish keeping experience. It's gives the bass a poor chance of survival, which in my opinion, is bad stewardship.

It's not the end of the world, I will confess, but it's not something I would do or approve of.

Holla!

[Tokyo Tony]

SuskyDude - that's a good point about stewardship, and your point partially explains our disagreement. I tend towards the school of thought that since we are the smartest beings on our planet, we have a certain privilege over the lesser animals. Since we're capable of much higher and more complex levels of pleasure/pain and of emotions (and because of the fact that we are rational beings capable of rational decisions - see my other post), our pleasure/pain and our emotions are more important than the those of other animals (assuming animals are capable of any level of emotions as we generally define them - I don't think bass are, but dogs seem to be). BUT along with that privilege comes a certain obligation - we can't abuse our "power", so to speak, and take advantage of helpless critters, no matter how base they are. Because of what I just explained, I think it's perfectly fine to fish (and inadvertently kill some bass), and it's perfectly fine to keep fish (and inadvertently kill some bass), as long as your intentions are noble. As I've said many times, the death of a bass as a result of fishing and of fishkeeping is virtually the same thing.

If someone goes out, catches a little bass, takes it home to a little tank, it dies and the person doesn't give a crap, I think that's wrong. HOWEVER, I don't think it's wrong because the poor bass "suffered". I think it's wrong because that type of behavior is indicative of what type of person he is, and that type of behavior encourages, or at least increases the chances, that he will act in a similar way towards other people. THAT would be unethical, but the bass in itself doesn't have a right to be shielded from unethical behavior. Does that make sense?

When you say a bass "lived the way it was supposed to," you presuppose the existence of a higher being that has mapped out how all creatures should live, and that's a whole other discussion. If it doesn't presuppose a higher being, it at least presupposes an objective truth. There is no objective truth in anything, (in my opinion, that is - many philosophers much smarter than any of us have written volumes on this subject), except maybe mathematics, and even that's debatable. I prefer to presuppose as little as possible. Even if you do presuppose the existence of this being, how can we be sure this bass wasn't "supposed" to die in our tank? We can't even really say with certainty that it's in a bass's best interests to live a "natural" life. We don't know, and we absolutely can't know, so it's better just to leave that alone and not think about it.

You say you don't think someone who has zero fishkeeping experience doesn't have the right to try to keep a fish. I think that's almost right...I think even if someone has zero fishkeeping experience, it's ok for him to try as long as his intentions are good. However, the poor fishkeeper I outlined in the example above obviously doesn't fall into this category.

I think we are nearing a consensus, and any disagreement we have at the end of it all could come down to a difference in our personal beliefs. Beliefs that result not only from our genetic makeup, but also from the environments in which we grew up. That's not to say that all personal beliefs are equal - they're not. However, no matter how different and seemingly outrageous someone's personal beliefs are, when it really really comes down to it, you'll find that you can't argue against them effectively because you're operating from a different conceptual scheme (that may be too strong) than the other person.

For example, infanticide is widely accepted in India because of the population problems and because it has been in practice for generations and generations. Such a practice in the States is illegal and almost universally considered horrific. Scientifically, it's no different from a late term abortion except that the infant has left its mother's body. We can't really draw the line at being inside the mother's body or being outside the mother's body, because the infant is developmentally identical. As tyrius said about farm fish and wild fish, the distinction is arbitrary. However, because of how we grew up, and the beliefs we've gathered since childhood, it seems obvious that infanticide is a horrific practice. Try arguing that against a rural Indian - you'll find that you hit a ro*** that can't be passed.

Sorry that was so long-winded, and that it jumped around a bit.

[SuskyDude]

Pheew. Well, Tokyo, I kinda had a feeling it was headed in this direction. I think we should lay this one to rest as it's getting a little close to this site's "restricted bandwidth," and I don't want to ruffle any feathers. If we continue, I can almost assure at least one of us would!  

I think you've got a better idea about where I'm coming from, and I of you. Its true that for myriad of reasons, we'll never agree. But you know what? That's not a bad thing.  

-Susky out

[pokey]

the vast majority of cichlids are wild caught from the amazon. LMB are non-native introduced species ;D

[Tokyo Tony]

Susky I can go on forever as you can probably see  

We may not agree about ethics relating to bass, but I think (I can't remember exactly and don't fee like reading the book above) my original point when I responded to you was that there is virtually no difference between a novice fishkeeper killing a bass and a novice fisherman killing a bass. I think I at least showed that before I went of on a ridiculous (though related) tangent.

Peace.

[roadwarrior]

Peace...

Good night Irene.