Why dont they have 2 records for Largemouth bass? N & S?

[Paul Roberts]

Hmmmm...I'm not so big on football...and I do love walleyes and perch caught through the ice...And another thing, I like my tomatoes red!

End of subject! LOL

[Matt Fly]

I think some one said the large northern strain was 15.8 from Ma. No matter what strain, 15.8 is your record that is already set.  

 As to bring F-1's to the north.  Florida strains don't like cold water.

But the Holy Grail is and always be the one that is sought after now.   George Perry's mark.

And state records are impressive also.     I know I'd be proud to a state record holder.

[Sam]

WRB,

You got it!

[George Welcome]

Everyone missed the boat on this one folks: This record of George Perry's is a "World Record", not a north vs. south record. Based on the discussion I guess we should have a Spanish bass, or a Swiss bass category also.

[George Welcome]

Two are recognized: the northern largemouth (M. s. salmoides) and the Florida largemouth (M. s. floridanus). The two look much the same, but the Florida largemouth has 69-73 scales along the lateral line compared to the northern largemouth's 59-65 scales.

"There should be a record for each type of bass; Smallmouth, Spotted, nothern strain largemouth and Florida strain largemouth.

The differences between each bass is easy to identify. Spots have teeth on thier tongue, smallmouth have connected dorsal fins, northern strain LMB have 8 front dorsal spines and 58 pore lateral line scales, Florida strian have 9 front dorsal spines and 69 pore lateral line scales. The only issue becomes the Florida/nothern LMB intergrades. However all LMB with 59 lateral line scales or more should be classed as Florida strian, regardless if it's F1 to F3 generation or a Texas genetic engineered LMB.

The length and girth difference between FLMB and NLMB are substantial. NLMB rarely have a girth that exceeds 80% of the length and FLMB usually have a girth exceeding 90%. This means that a FLMB of the same length usually out weighs the NLMB. Example;

using the Length X length X girth / 1200 formula:

28" length, 80% = 22 1/2" girth (max), 28" with 90% (avg) 25 1/4"

The 28L X 22.5G = 14.7 lbs., max for NLMB

The 28L X 25.25 = 16.5 lbs., average for FLMB

however if you use 95% girth, 28L X 26.6G = 17.4 lbs

The maximum a NLMB could weigh is 16 lbs for a 29 inch long bass.

The maximum a FLMB could weigh is 20 lbs for a 29 inch long bass.

FLMB have been known to grow to a length of 32 inches (WR), nothern is around 29 inches. Two very different bass and they should have their own record status.

WRB "

I don't know where you get your information but it is quite a bit incorrect. Florida strain, as the Northern strain are torpedo shape. However, Forida strain bass in both Texas and California will have a gravid appearance quite often. If you classified bass by scales along the lateral line as you propose than you classifiy all bass as southern strain. (M. s. floridanus)

[WRB]

Two are recognized: the northern largemouth (M. s. salmoides) and the Florida largemouth (M. s. floridanus). The two look much the same, but the Florida largemouth has 69-73 scales along the lateral line compared to the northern largemouth's 59-65 scales.

"There should be a record for each type of bass; Smallmouth, Spotted, nothern strain largemouth and Florida strain largemouth.

The differences between each bass is easy to identify. Spots have teeth on thier tongue, smallmouth have connected dorsal fins, northern strain LMB have 8 front dorsal spines and 58 pore lateral line scales, Florida strian have 9 front dorsal spines and 69 pore lateral line scales. The only issue becomes the Florida/nothern LMB intergrades. However all LMB with 59 lateral line scales or more should be classed as Florida strian, regardless if it's F1 to F3 generation or a Texas genetic engineered LMB.

The length and girth difference between FLMB and NLMB are substantial. NLMB rarely have a girth that exceeds 80% of the length and FLMB usually have a girth exceeding 90%. This means that a FLMB of the same length usually out weighs the NLMB. Example;

using the Length X length X girth / 1200 formula:

28" length, 80% = 22 1/2" girth (max), 28" with 90% (avg) 25 1/4"

The 28L X 22.5G = 14.7 lbs., max for NLMB

The 28L X 25.25 = 16.5 lbs., average for FLMB

however if you use 95% girth, 28L X 26.6G = 17.4 lbs

The maximum a NLMB could weigh is 16 lbs for a 29 inch long bass.

The maximum a FLMB could weigh is 20 lbs for a 29 inch long bass.

FLMB have been known to grow to a length of 32 inches (WR), nothern is around 29 inches. Two very different bass and they should have their own record status.

WRB "

I don't know where you get your information but it is quite a bit incorrect. Florida strain, as the Northern strain are torpedo shape. However, Forida strain bass in both Texas and California will have a gravid appearance quite often. If you classified bass by scales along the lateral line as you propose than you classifiy all bass as southern strain. (M. s. floridanus)

Thats what happens when you get old, memory... should be above 65 not 59 lateral line scales, 59 is the published data in most reference books. Stand corrected.

What is your stand in 2 separate records?

The Perry bass is very questionable, not valid picture or weight witness. I have always accepted the Perry bass simply because it is the establised record. When you considered the second largest bass ever recorded in Georgia is less than 18 lbs..you tend to have second thoughts.

WRB

[JCrzy4Bass]

The international bass is where it gets complicated. Because I see all these guys posting from those countries in the Europe area, Australia, and then Mexico too. Overall as far as world records go, it definately would be very tough. But the start of this discussion was basically on Northern and Floridian being seperate. I'm just curious exactly how many other strains there are in the states aside from these two if any.

Are the bass in Texas and Cali a seperate strain as well? Or do they just grow that huge because the growing seasons?

[WRB]

The international bass is where it gets complicated. Because I see all these guys posting from those countries in the Europe area, Australia, and then Mexico too. Overall as far as world records go, it definately would be very tough. But the start of this discussion was basically on Northern and Floridian being seperate. I'm just curious exactly how many other strains there are in the states aside from these two if any.

Are the bass in Texas and Cali a seperate strain as well? Or do they just grow that huge because the growing seasons?

There are only the 2 strains of LMB, northern and Florida. The northern strian originally planted in California came from Minnesota back in the 1890's by Dr Henshall. California doesn't have any native bass. The Florida strain was introduced by in 1959 by Orval Ball, who planted the Florida's in San Diego city lakes. Intregrades or mixtures of NLMB and FLMB occur naturally where both strains share the same water. The intergrades are still FLMB, just not pure FLMB.

Texas originally planted Florida strain, like California. Then Texas started an selective harvest where big bass were used for brood fish via the Share a Lunker program, to use natural genetic process to produce bigger bass, however they were still natural Floridia strian LMB. About 10 years ago Texas started to gene splice giant bass DNA into Florida/NLMB to create a strain more tolerant to cold temperatures and be a little more agressive to increase catch rates. They still would be classified as Florida strain bass and only time will tell if they out grow the natural FLMB.

WRB

[WRB]

GW, shape has a lot to do with the avalble food source. Football shape bass, both FLMB and NLMB occur where high protein food is abundant. However it has been my experience that FLMB outgrow NLMB in the same lake, with the same food source. Agree that NLMB are more elongated, thinner bodied bass, than FLMB and can not achieve the same weight. That is why I believe 2 record classes should be established.

Prior to the FLMB being planted into Ca lakes, the CA record was 14 lb 8 oz. My PB NLMB is 12 lbs 4 oz caught in lake Casitas in 1971, my best FLMB from lake Casitas is 18 lbs 11 oz, caught in 1981, PB FLMB is 19.3 lbs caught at lake Castaic in 1995. There is no doubt that FLMB outgrow NLMB in the same lakes with the same food source.

WRB

[Del from philly]

You got it!

its everything from world records to perception....

Powerman, LOL a record per zip code! That's good. I might just have mine LOL!

My point isn't about world records, although admittedly that's what the original post mentioned. It's about the appropriate perception and recognition of big bass.

A glaring example is the BassMaster "Lunker Club" that only recognizes 10lb and up largemouths. In more than half the country, that's not even possible! What's up BassMaster?? You have readers all over the country, and some pretty proud anglers with their 6 or 7lb northern largemouths! (Is that akin to a 10lb florida?? I dunno what the number might be.)

Correct me if I'm wrong Johnnydel, but I think that was the gist of the thread?

[Randall]

GW, shape has a lot to do with the avalble food source. Football shape bass, both FLMB and NLMB occur where high protein food is abundant. However it has been my experience that FLMB outgrow NLMB in the same lake, with the same food source. Agree that NLMB are more elongated, thinner bodied bass, than FLMB and can not achieve the same weight. That is why I believe 2 record classes should be established.

It's been my experience that shape has much to do with the type of food source and abundance of it but here in GA our larger northern strain bass are more football shaped while our intergrades are more torpeedo shaped as George said. What limits a northern strain bass weight here is length not girth. It is also growth rate with our intergrades reaching the same lengths faster. Also, at some point north of me I am sure the Northen bass will outgrow the Florida bass in the same lake. I have no problem with two records but just looking at my two best fish from Ga they aren't too far apart I have a 13.8 northern strain and a 15lb 12oz intergrade. My northern strain was a football shaped bass nearly six inches shorter than my torpeedo shaped intergrade bass. Freak football shaped Florida intergrade bass pretty much only happen in Texas and California so why not just make a seperate California and Texas record as well or say the record don't count if it comes from California or Texas. :-?  Note: for those in Texas or California I am just being sarcastic so don't get upset. ;D

[Del from philly]

Everyone missed the boat on this one folks: This record of George Perry's is a "World Record", not a north vs. south record. Based on the discussion I guess we should have a Spanish bass, or a Swiss bass category also.

i dont get this one at all...

is their a spanish strain bass? or a swiss strain? if their is, please retract my statement.

but thats not a fair comparaison at all....i mean, these 2 strains are clearly different, they have different habitats, their anatomy slightly differs....

I just dont see how hard it would really be if the spines are less for a northern strain, couldnt they just take a descent picture where the spines can be counted?

I mean, the current method isnt 100% either....it will always involve trust.....

plus, we always have the lie detecter to fall back on...

Also, why were at it, why not clump spotted bass into the world record largemouth.....this logic wouldnt work their, so why does it work here?

[Matt Fly]

Randall, no worries, Texas shouldn't be in the conversation.   We have one docuemented bass at 18.18, some 17's,  Long ways from the 20 lb barrier, not to mention 22 lbs 4 ozs.

I'm lucky to have a state that noticed it sold lots of fishing license, to wit, alot of bass fishemen.    So the state did its part.

Could you imagine what Cali waters could be like if they actually stocked bass?    Or had a program like Texas.

To the best of my knowledge, Texas biologist have not been trying to mutate DNA for superbass, they have tried to spawn the best genetics available for the best seed to be restocked.

I wonder if the IGFA has been asked that question before and what was there response?

     

[Del from philly]

Bottom line....

I feel like the World record should have nothing to do with location.

it should have to do with catching the largest fish of that species or strain. Period.

Why would any fisherman be against this idea ?

i just dont understand?

[Matt Fly]

The  "next" world record may come from South Africa, Cuba, or Mexico to name a few.

Now if you are seeking a United States Record, then you have 15.8 lbs coming from the North that was caught in Massachusetts.  Northern Strain

And you have George Perry's from the South.   Thus Mr. Perry's bass would be the current US record and World Record bass.    No proof of what his strain was, only speculation of what populus of bass that body of water had.     Again, no guarantees .

Then you have your own bars set in each state.   Mine is at 18 and some change.    Those in Georgia, well, you set the bar pretty high.

[roadwarrior]

We have a similar problem setting a new State Record for smallmouth in this state.    :

8-)

[George Welcome]

There is at least a 98% certainty that the Perry bass was either an F1 or a Northern. To be pure Florida strain it would have had to been planted.

The World record of any species is just that with no differentiation for the locale that it came from. So is the world record for bass, which of course is not really a bass. That is why the record states for a Largemouth Bass.

[WRB]

Randall, no worries, Texas shouldn't be in the conversation. We have one docuemented bass at 18.18, some 17's, Long ways from the 20 lb barrier, not to mention 22 lbs 4 ozs.

I'm lucky to have a state that noticed it sold lots of fishing license, to wit, alot of bass fishemen. So the state did its part.

Could you imagine what Cali waters could be like if they actually stocked bass? Or had a program like Texas.

To the best of my knowledge, Texas biologist have not been trying to mutate DNA for superbass, they have tried to spawn the best genetics available for the best seed to be restocked.

I wonder if the IGFA has been asked that question before and what was there response?

     

Texas dos a wonderful job of managing their bass population. California doesn't manage our bass, they are on their own, other than to establish slot limits in a few lakes that are pressured beyond belief.

Check with your Share A Lunker Program managers, they are working with a local university with DNA gene program. You are right on with how the program started and continues, however they added the gene splicing program, not to make bigger bass but more resiliant to temperature changes to improve their health.

No distinction between LMB as far as the IGFA is concerned. If you can't see the difference without knowing there is a difference; like brown color and teeth on the tongue, to the IGFA and most fisherman a bass is a bass. The facts say they are seperate species; Florida grow over 30" long, NLMB less than 28" ( mouth closed to tip of tail). The Perry bass was reported to be 32" long,so it had to be a Florida strain LMB. The perry bass was caught near the Georgia / Florida border, well within it's natural range.

Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up, as bass is a bass, or is it a sunfish? My vote, 2 records.

WRB

[UrbanRedneck]

The reason there is only one world record for largemouth bass is because there is only one species of largemouth bass. Northern strain and Florida strain are subspecies. Until they are separated, and discussion continues among those researchers that do the species separations, there will only be one world record. Pretty simple.

Hey WRB, check this out:

"Northern strain largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides salmoides) were introduced to California in 1874 when they were transported from Quincy, Illinois and released into the Napa River and Alameda Creek (Emig 1966). Florida strain largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides floridanus) were introduced to California in 1959 when they were transported from Pensacola, Florida and released into Upper Otay Reservoir in San Diego County (Pelzman 1980)."

If ya need full citations let me know.\

Oh, and to the person who said something like "at least we still have the world record smallmouth", you may want to hold your breath.  Cali is going to have that record soon.  

[George Welcome]

Geeesh: Pure Florida strain bass are a southern Florida inhabitant. Intergrades are a northern Florida inhabitant. The line of separation is what is known as the weather line which goes from Melbourne to Tampa. The last lake north that guarantees a pure strain Florida Bass happens to be Stick Marsh/Farm 13. So sayeth the Biologists of the Fresh Water Commission who are in charge of these things and knowledgeable about these things.

You see, we sit on the cusp of south Florida, so the Perry Bass either had to be an intergrade, a northern bass, or one that was planted.

[Guest muddy]

Why don't we have 2 Home Run records those for leftys and those for rightys, why don't we have stikeout records the same or place kicking the same. While stats like these are in fact kept the one that is important is the World Record. The is only one world record bass, there are state and lake records too.

[Del from philly]

i guess i just dont understand what a strain really is enough to really make good points.....

'

i thought for sure everyone would agree....i mean, isnt it true the florida strain bass cant even survive in the cold weather?

How simular can they really be if they cant survive in the same waters? And the difference in spines....

i know all the south people , and cali people are against this

but id like to here what fellow yankees think of this?

Maybe you have to be a part of the world that has no shot of the world record to be on my side here???

who knows....i still dont see why people are making it out to be such a dead topic.....so black and white....

i think this topic is every shade of grey

either way, great debate!

[WRB]

Urban,

I don't disagree with the 1874 Napa river NLMB planting. ASU has a plaque near some ponds honoring Dr. Henshall on the University where he transplanted NLMB from Minn to stock both AZ and CA.

When I wrote a article for In-Fisherman "Rare chance for a world record", published Jan '86, my research on FLMB including talking to Jim Brown, Orval Ball and Larry Bothroff, the people who brought the bass from Florida to San Diego and managed the program. The bass in question came from Crpress Gardens Fl in 1959 and were initially planted into holding ponds near where lake Miramar is located. The pure FLMB were then transplanted into upper Otay and lake Hodges, both closed to the public at the time. I don't know where the information came from with the source you noted, there certainly could have been more than on transplant, however the people involved didn't mention that to me at the time.

If interseted email me and I can send you a copy of the In-Fisherman article.

Larry Bothroff was the San Diego fishery biologists who monitoured the FLMB program for over 30 years, until he retired a few years ago.

Jim Brown was the city lakes manager, Orval Ball was city manager who came up with the original plan. From a biologist point of view the transplant was considered a failure. The FLMB grow faster and bigger as planned, but the catch rate for angler hours went down, fewer bass being caught by the average angler and the transplants discontinued by San Diego city lakes. The fact that the FLMB started growing to giant size was not part of the initail plan.

WRB

[UrbanRedneck]

Im very familar with Mr. Botroff.  My info comes from exhaustive literature reviews, your info comes from people who were involved.  So, if those you spoke with have good memories, your info may be more accurate.  Ill send you full citations on Monday.

[Guest muddy]

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