Lake Turning Over! ????#2

[Matt Fly]

I have never thought about this before.    Like the spawn, when it starts out on a USA map.    It shows lower Texas and lover Florida has starting to spawn and progresses north.

MY question is.     How do lakes turning over in the USA progress?

I would think the colder weather progresses from the north to south, so I would assume that the lakes that turn over first would be from the NORTH to SOUTH.

I got to thinking when the oither thread mentioned it would be long time before they turned over in the north.

Matt

[Guest muddy]

I am not trying to be funny here, but i also would like to see East to West, since the angle of the Sunshine and duration of warm sunrays may be different?

[Matt Fly]

So, would that be Northwest to Southeast?????

Matt

[Guest muddy]

hey Matt you met me at the Fork ; do you think I even have a remote sense of direction? I come from a place where you meet at 8th street and 8th Ave.

[Catt]

My guess would be the same as the spawn except in reverse  

[llPa1nll]

lol I see we are calling out the brain trust out here. Well the "turnover" of lakes depends on a number of situations, such as; geographic location, water clarity, springs, inlets. The general trend for lakes turning over is from North to South. Factors that will effect this are if the water is clear or stained, if there are any springs feeding the lake, the altitude of the lake. Other than that its just watching the temp gauge on your graph.

[Matt Fly]

So does this mean the lakes that are in  Kansas and further up should have already turned.

I know on the other thread, it was stated that his lake hasn't turned over yet, and like some, i figured it would be reverse of the spawn also, but thought i'd toss it out there.

Matt

[WRB]

The spawn is governed by the transtion of longer day light period and water temperaure of 62 to 67 degrees. Tournover is a condition caused by the upper layer of colder heavy density water over balancing the lower layer of warmer less dense water. It takes a combination of wind and cold water to tournover a lake and mix the thermal layers together. Geograpghic location doesn't play a major factor. For example high winds can turnover a Florida lake in mid summer and ice out can turnover a northern lake in mid March. The lake must first develope thermoclines to have a turnover and not all bodies water stratify into layers, due to depth, springs, current etc.

WRB

[llPa1nll]

So does this mean the lakes that are in  Kansas and further up should have already turned.

I know on the other thread, it was stated that his lake hasn't turned over yet, and like some, i figured it would be reverse of the spawn also, but thought i'd toss it out there.

Matt

Lakes turn over on their own accord but it all has to do with temperature. It usually happens around 37-43°F. There where some rather in depth discussion on this last year but from what I have been told. What happens is that the water above the thermocline in the Fall because of the cooler air temps becomes cooler, heavier and more dense than the water that was trapped under the thermocline all summer. Then the two masses of water flip or turnover. This is characterized by the water becoming very stained. I dont know how far down South lakes turn over. I know in NH they havent so all bets are on that in Kansas they probably havent either.

[Guest muddy]

So does this mean the lakes that are in Kansas and further up should have already turned.

I know on the other thread, it was stated that his lake hasn't turned over yet, and like some, i figured it would be reverse of the spawn also, but thought i'd toss it out there.

Matt

Hey Matt Here in North East PA, our lakes would be mostly turned. We usually have had at least one cold driving rain, lots of windy days and a least a couple of frosts, with temps in the 40's overnights. Mother nature hasn't done here stuff this year and it has remained warm,rainfree and especially warm at night. The top layer of the lakes havent gotten cold enough to get the denisty thing working so we are still in somehwhat of a late summer pattern

An interesting thing: With less daylight hours the weeds are still dying and the Algae content of the water, the suspended stuff is way down. So instead of green water we are fishing spring like gin colored water!

[Shad_Master]

A lot of it has to do with the depth of the lake - shallower lakes will turnover sooner than those with deeper water. In a previous thread on this subject, I was told that the lake I was describing couldn't be turning over - but it was. Why? Because it is a very shallow lake (max depth maybe 30') - since then I have been on another lake in this area that was turning over (max depth maybe 20 feet). But some lakes never "turnover" because there is a good range in the thermocline and the lake can adjust as the temps change.

But to answer your question, it would seem to be that Northwest to Southeast wold be the movement.

[WRB]

I don't know where the 37 to 43 degree water temperature came from? Water is at it's heavest at 39.4 degrees, after than it get light in weight and floats until it freezes. Bass can not tolerate water colder than 40 degrees, FLMB 46 degrees.

Suggest you Google; The Weather Doctor, Weather Phenomenon Elements. I would list the URL but don't have the needed characters on my key board.

You can have surface wind turnover in the summer and fall, winter ice out turnover.

Lakes that stratitify into upper Epillmnion, thermocline and lower Hyolimnion can turnover under a variety of conditions unrelated to where they are located. For example a California lake that has a upper layer 70 degree water with a thermocline established can turn over when the Epillmnion upper layer cools to 60 degrees, if the 60 degrees water outweighs the balance of the water layers below or a day of high wind tips the balance. What normally happens is the upper layer water cools slowly and drifts down through the lower layer until the water near the thrmocline is compressed between the Epillmnion and Hypolimnion until the upper layer is outweighs the cold lower Hypolimnion and the water column flips over bringing the cold Hyplimnion water with very low DO levels to the surface. All the fish must then try to find comfortable water temperature with good DO levels until the lake settles. Fishing is bad until they are recondtioned to the change.

Sometimes the same lake just reaches a balance with a well definned deep layer of warmer water above the thermocline and the fish stay there all winter without the lake turning over.

Tom

[llPa1nll]

I don't know where the 37 to 43 degree water temperature came from? Water is at it's heavest at 39.4 degrees, after than it get light in weight and floats until it freezes. Bass can not tolerate water colder than 40 degrees, FLMB 46 degrees.

Suggest you Google; The Weather Doctor, Weather Phenomenon Elements. I would list the URL but don't have the needed characters on my key board.

You can have surface wind turnover in the summer and fall, winter ice out turnover.

Lakes that stratitify into upper Epillmnion, thermocline and lower Hyolimnion can turnover under a variety of conditions unrelated to where they are located. For example a California lake that has a upper layer 70 degree water with a thermocline established can turn over when the Epillmnion upper layer cools to 60 degrees, if the 60 degrees water outweighs the balance of the water layers below or a day of high wind tips the balance. What normally happens is the upper layer water cools slowly and drifts down through the lower layer until the water near the thrmocline is compressed between the Epillmnion and Hypolimnion until the upper layer is outweighs the cold lower Hypolimnion and the water column flips over bringing the cold Hyplimnion water with very low DO levels to the surface. All the fish must then try to find comfortable water temperature with good DO levels until the lake settles. Fishing is bad until they are recondtioned to the change.

Sometimes the same lake just reaches a balance with a well definned deep layer of warmer water above the thermocline and the fish stay there all winter without the lake turning over.

Tom

Well put WRB to be honest I forgot what the ideal temp was for water being the highest density I knew it was either 39°F or 40°F hence the range I put.

[Guest muddy]

FROM THE EXPERTS: The lake starts to turn as the upper layer cools and becomes most dense at 39.2 degrees However it will start to turn as the wind and temps cool the upper layer and it starts to decend. Now the bottom layer may never reach 39 in some lakes and as these articles show salinity also plays a role

http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/elements/turnlakes.htm

http://www.in-fisherman.com/magazine/articles/IF2706_turnover/

http://waterontheweb.org/under/lakeecology/05_stratification.htmlhttp://www.onthelake.net/fishing/turnover.htm

This is a scientific accounting of the process

http://www.mlswa.org/lkclassf.htm

[Randall]

Many times lakes in Texas start to turn over before lakes north of Texas. Other times they may not. One of the reasons is that the hotter the summer water temps get the higher the temp of cooler surface water that can get the lake mixing to start the turnover process. All lakes don't start turnover at the same surface temp. Water doesn't have to be real cold to start falling to the bottom if the water is already very hot on the surface. The water just has to be cooler than the water just below it. For example if the surface water is 85-90 degrees it may start to turn over when the surface temp fall ten or more degrees after one or two cool nights in the fifties. If the summer water temp on a lake is 75-80 it may start to turnover only after the surface cools into the low sixties after a few nights in the thirties. Here in GA on lake Varner we always seem to have the earliest turnovers when we get summer surface temps over ninty since the water doesn't have to cool to as low a temp to start the turnover as when the surface temps stay in the low eighties. Too many factors involved also to make any kind of map or chart since wind, current, rainfall, etc. are all involved. Also many lakes in the South or North never turnover since they never stratify. Also some have deep thermoclines, some have shallow thermoclines, and some have more than one thermocline. Each lake is different no matter where it is located. Hope this makes sense.