The IGFA and state fishing laws

[Mattlures]

Ok many of you have critisized the IGFA for even considering Macs fish becasue according to CA law he should have released it imediatly. Some have said that they have lost respect for the IGFA for being above the law.

These people are ignorant to what the IGFA is all about. They do not make or enforce laws. That is up to the the local law enforcment.

The IGFA has their own rules and if an aplication meets the needed criteria then the record is awarded.

They do not go above the law. They have many rules that are perfectly legal to do according to the law but would disqualify a potential record. For instance. acording to the IGFA if you use a treble hook with bait any record would automaticly be  disqualified. Out here manny trout guys use tiny trebles with powerbait and many catfisherman like to use trebles. I personaly like to use small trebles with bread balls for carp. You also can not have a fixed treble. It has to be free swinging. So anybody who uses swimbaits and imbeds on of the hooks in the bait would be disqualified. None of these things are illegal acording to the fish and game.

You guys need to realize the IGFA just keeps records.  If a potential record meets thier rules than it gets accepted. In the case on the Weakley fish the DFG felt the fish was returned in a reasonable amount of time considering the situation. No Ticket, not even a warning so, the IGFA could justify that particular part of the aplication. Acording to the IGFA foul hooking is also OK if it is not intentional. They will speak with the guys who seen them catch this fish. Hopefuly they will also polygraph Mac. A polygraph may not be used in court but again the IGFA is not law enforcement. They just need to suficiant proof and testing them is one way of getting it.

For all of you who are getting upset at the thought of Macs fish being the record, dont worry it wont be. The IGFA likes the attention. It rarly gets any press unless its world record bass time. They will take forever to rule on Macs aplication and ultimatley reject it. They will not be specific on why because there is no one black and white rule that they didnt do but there are to many things that are questionable. Even though the IGFA says foul hooking will not disqualify it, there is a diference in a foul hooked fish that you didnt see and one that is on a bed. To me there is a BIG diference.

When that Trew lady submitted her fish for the record, anybody who knew anything about big bass instanly knew her and her son were frauds. They had NO chance of getting the record but the internet was alive with debates about the IGFA and I am sure they loved all the attention.

So all you guys who are worried about Mac getting the record, dont be.

Jeds fish however, now thats a diferent story.  We will just have to see how they rule. I for one believe the IGFA will make the right decision. if they feel there is enough proof than thats that.

I had to jump through a lot of hoops to get my record and that is nothing comparred to tyhe WRB.

[Guest avid]

So let me get this straight mattlures.

If I was standing on the dock when the weakley bass was being photo'd and pulled a gun on them, ordering them to release the fish immediately, and they complied.  I could have then thrown in a huge jig, snagged the fish and claimed that "Avid" is the rightful world record holder.

Of course I would be arrested for pulling the gun, but since IGFA doesn't care about state laws, there would be no quarrel with the record being mine.  

Right?

[Mattlures]

HUH???? I realy think you missed this one. My point is The IGFA has thier own rules. If they are met than you get the record. They are not above the law. They are not equal to the law.

Law enforcemt is completey seperate.

However one of the rules of the IGFA is that the fish must be caught according to local regulations. If the law (DFG) does not feel they broke the law than they did not break the law. The IGFA could be ok with them stringing up the fish and weighing it. The IGFA could also rule that even though the DFG is ok with them not instantly releasing the fish that they,(theIGFA) is not ok with it.

They are thier own private organization. Thier major function is just to keep records.

So to answer your question, NO you would not get the record

Its not that the IGFA does not care about the laws, its just that they are seperate.

Again I never said the IGFA was ok with the way everything happened. I realy doubt they will give him the record.

Here is an example. Bob Crupi caught a 22lb 1oz bass and weighed it on a certified scale in front of wittnesses. He took photos.He is credited with an IGFA line class record. Crupi was not granted the state record because he did not wait for a game warden to identify the fish as a largemouth bass. Even though it is obvously a bass he didn't get the state record. Now should the IGFA not have given him the line class record either? of cource they should hjave because he met all their requirements. In this case the DFG should have been more understanding

[RottManK9]

I think what Mattlures is trying to say is that IGFA has to be nutural in the "LAW" department.  They need to verify that the state rules and regs were met (DFG has the final say so, be it yes or no) and THEN make sure the application is in order and all criteria is met.  While that is being conducted I'm sure there is an ethical issue that is examined as well.

Did I sum it up well enough?  Just my understanding of the issue.

[Low_Budget_Hooker]

yup.  He is saying that every state has their own laws.  If DNR gives the catch a thumbs up, THEN, then the IGFA will apply THEIR pre-requisites for submitting a record.  2 different entities.  IGFA does not investigate local law.  All submissions have to already be proven to be legal in the respective state before the IGFA will scrutinize it to THEIR specs, providing state law was not encroached.

Avid- you would be as illegal as him. It CAN'T be a "snagged" fish!!

[FL_fisher]

I thought that the fish was foul hooked and if so why would he try to enter it???

[Guest the_muddy_man]

Wow Matt you sem to be really into this are the potential record holders friends of yours or did they use your baits? Why all the intrest, just curious!

[Low_Budget_Hooker]

Wow Matt you sem to be really into this are the potential record holders friends of yours or did they use your baits? Why all the intrest, just curious!

In his business, he HAS to know.  Plus, lets remember that mattlures started because Matt is a hard core hunter.  He's "one of them",lol

[Sam]

I understand what you all are saying, but I think Avid has a very valid point.

Of couse this would never happen (unless you caught the fish in Washington DC and the hood would probably shoot the fish first, anyway) however stranger things have happened on the water.

So let's say I go to Mexico and smuggle one of those monstor bass across the boarder with some illegals and then place it in my private pond and snag it.  I would have a world record.

How do you swim across a river holding a bass?

[Low_Budget_Hooker]

Careful Sam, IGFA runs a dna test on a sample of scales. They can determine the PH that the fish lived in and if it's not close to the body it supposedly came from, there could be trouble . Fraud type trouble.

ps-if it's big enough, grab by tail and HOLD ON!!

[Guest the_muddy_man]

OK thanks LBH now I understand his passion for the subject! I would be right in there too if that was my connection! Thank God Im just a dink mook ;D

[flyphisher #]

Hold your breath ;D..........If this turns into anything like the world record smallmouth epic :, it might take a while for all this to get straight.

As with most freshwater records of any importance, I have a feeling The new WR LM when caught wont be caught by anybody that has devoted their lives to the fish...It will be someone that probably isnt out looking for the fish. More than likely someone not even fishing for bass. And most of all in an unlikely place.

[flechero]

With all due respect to all who responded to Matt...

Please remove your personal feelings about the world record and just read his post again. It is quite clear... and to prove it to myself before posting this, I asked my wife to read it and tell me what she thought it meant. Her only question was "What recoed does Mattlures hold?" Dang it, she stumped me. ...lol Well, Matt, which record do you hold?

The real issue in my mind is actually how and why the Ca. DFG missed out on both a State record and a World Record in recent history, not whether Mac should have been ticketed.

How many of you protest the police for not giving you tickets every time you go 1 mph over the speed limit or fail to use a turn signal? I'm sure none of you ever "roll" a stop sign. Come on guys, get real. If the police (DFG) don't issue a ticket, warning or even a verbal warning, then where do you draw the line?

The IGFA is to law enforcement about what the Boy Scouts are to law enforcement... how come so few people grasp the concept?

[Guest avid]

I think that by encouraging Weakley to submit his bass, there is clearly the implication that it MAY be validated.   If they knew the bass was snagged, as witnessess loudly proclaimed, and IF the IGFA bylaws clearly state that the fish must be caught in compliance with state regulations to be considered for an IGFA record than they are violating their own rules by considering a fish that was admitted to be hooked outside the mouth i.e. snagged.

I hear all this talk about "the real issue"

lets stop being naive ok???

The real issue is money.  The pressure being applied to IGFA and Califorinia fish and game must be enourmous.  The line, lure, hook, rod, reel, even the truck he drove to the ramp, will pay plenty for this publicity.  Not to mention that the California tourist bureau, better business bureau, and other California business and political entities must be beside themselves with anticipation.  

Criticizing the officer at the scene for allowing the fish to be photo'd is nonesense.  This was clearly and exceptional situation.  No conclusion should be drawn by his actions, or lack thereof.

This is now in the realm where all things of material significance reside.   Power, politics, and money will decide the issue.

I"m not saying that it's a guarantee Weakley will get the record.  Their were a number of witnesses and it was he who decided to release the bass without submitting it for IGFA WR status.  As a dedicated WR hunter would he have done this if his catch was clearly within all the rules?

I don't think so.

But this is BIG business and I chuckle that anyone can defend the IGFA on their pathetic ruling.

Mattlures............give it a rest.

[KenDammit28]

the police issue is a bunk argument because police aren't watching our every move and we're not all sitting around publicizing our traffic indiscretions.  Weakley's fish has been well documented to be foul hooked.  Thats quite a bit different than that person going 1 MPH over the speed limit and no one ever saw or heard a thing about it.

I also must say that if we are removing personal feelings from the discussion, then those in favor of Macs or Jeds fish must do the same.  

I don't want (to set) a record like that when it's foul-hooked no matter what. There would always be doubts in the backs of people's minds, he told me. People are saying we could still submit it, but I don't want there to be a 50-50 feeling about the fish, he said, referring to Internet chatter questioning the ethicality of the catch.

When the record falls, there should be no doubt. We want to make sure that everything is perfect, so there won't be any controversy behind it.

Those are Macs own words from here http://chrislegend.net/2006/03/27/record-bass-controversy-averted/

So why be pushing for it now when he knows theres doubt surrounding it and he did want to submit it when its foul hooked, regardless of intent?

The problem I have with the whole scenario is who's to say that he really did UNintentionally snag the fish?  Its just his word..and with a fish that big with such implications behind it..who's to say how a mans word may change?

Avids words ring true..a true record hunter that released the fish..why?  And now, why try to get it listed as the record?  I smell money.

[Mattlures]

Avid I am sorry I am anoying you. The reason I care so much about this subject is because I know most of the playes and its all hapening in my backyard. Plus I am out there hunting these fish too.

I agree with most of what Avid is saying except you are wrong about a few things. First off They recieved almost nothing for catching that fish and now a year later under these less than ideal conditions I would speculate that they would get almost no sponsers.  Mac might get some press but as far as money goes, it would be minimal. The state has no reason to presure the IGFA. If people are going to visit because of that fish than they would alredy be doing it. Avid you are wrong about why the IGFA is encouraging them to submit. Your not very far off though. The IGFA wants the press. They need it. How many of you are members? Hardley anybody even talks about them unless the WR bass is in question. You are right, that its about the money. IF, and its still an if they do submit the IGFA will milk it for all its worth and then reject Weakley's claim posibly based on the foul hooking(because it was on a bed makes it harder to accept) and maybe even because it wasnt released imediatly even though I believe that part is erelevent because if CA law didnt find him guilty than neither should the IGFA.

Mark my words, If they submit I will bet any of you $5 that Mac's aplication is denied. I wont bet on Jeds though.

Oh and my world record is kinda lame but what the heck. I was fun fishing one day and catching big carp when I caught the world record goldfish. 9lbs 10oz.  ;D

[Guest avid]

Matt,

I don't mind if you disagree with me, just kindly disagree with what I say, not what you think I am saying.

did you see me make one single mention of Mac making any money on the deal?

I made it as absolutely clear as I could, that the manufactureres and Califorinia business interests are no doubt applying enourmous pressure.

they could care less about Mac.  They want to sell the "amazing fishing line that landed the world record bass"  Mac is a pawn in their game.

I"m sure they are making him all kinds of promises, but if has any integrity he will say. "I made my decision and I stand by it"

If not, the controversy that he so nobely sought to avoid will land on him like a tusunami.

avid

PS - If you annoyned me, I wouldn't be posting.  A passionate debate among gentleman is not annoying, it is invigorating.

PS >  I caught anohter 3 lber on the baby bass Dan sent me.  Can't wait to hook into a biggun.

[Mattlures]

Agreed Avid. I didnt mean to put words in your mouth. I do disagree about the money though. I dont think the manufactures would get behind a foul hooked fish. I believe they would have already done that and they havent touched it.  Mac mada a statement saying that they recieved almost nothing and believed that even if he the IGFA gave it to him it wouldnt be worth much at this point. Ha said its not about the money. He basicaly said that he has gotten all the controversy with out submitting so why not submit and see what happens. I agree with him. he has been accused of every thing and his charachter has been questioned. He basicaly has recieved all the bad why not submit. He has nothing to loose. I actualy agrre with his mentality but. I am still stuck on the foul hook. To me, he missed so it doesnt count however if the IGFA says its good acording to their rules I will accept it. I still say he only has a 1-100 shot at it. The IGFA is the real winner here.

Hey you probably never will but if you or Lightning rod ever get out here I will personaly guide you on little Dixon lake and show you where that fish was caught and maybe we can get a few our selves.

The offer is genuine.

[Guest avid]

I can see your point with why Mac, might at this point say "what the helll, after all the crap I went through if IGFA wants to review it, why not?

It is their position that I don't get.  If they require all state laws be complied with.  And if the fish was hooked outside the mouth which constitues snagging under cali law, then how can they consider his catch?

anyway, I would love to fish some of those legendary big fish lakes y'all have out there.

Who knows, maybe someday.

[Panamoka_Bassin]

The IGFA wants the press. They need it. How many of you are members? Hardley anybody even talks about them unless the WR bass is in question.

Not to interupt this great debate you guys are having (and I mean that), but the IGFA may want into fresh water fishing spotlights, but I'll tell you, they are all over salt water fishing. Every major salt water tournament I ever attended had IGFA reps all over. Not to belittle our sport, but BASS fishing is small potatos compared to big game fishing. Thats where the money is, and that's where they spend their time. Generally speaking, the overall cost of big game fishing is TREMENDOUSLY larger than anything we'd even dream of in our bass fishing world. How many of us have a $2 million skeeter? This kinda leads to what Avid may have been getting to (unless I misunderstood) as to money being in charge here. To tuna, marlin, shark, and even striped bass fisherman, the IGFA is GOD.

[Mattlures]

I'll give you that.

I just dont think anybody should be upset with the IGFA for wanting to see Macs aplication. I dont blame them I would want to see it to and I would encourage them. If your going to be upset with them, do after they accept Macs aplication. It aint happenin though.

[Guest avid]

Careful Sam, IGFA runs a dna test on a sample of scales. They can determine the PH that the fish lived in and if it's not close to the body it supposedly came from, there could be trouble . Fraud type trouble.

ps-if it's big enough, grab by tail and HOLD ON!!

Not to mention the taco smell.

[cart7t]

yup.  He is saying that every state has their own laws.  If DNR gives the catch a thumbs up, THEN, then the IGFA will apply THEIR pre-requisites for submitting a record.  2 different entities.  IGFA does not investigate local law.  All submissions have to already be proven to be legal in the respective state before the IGFA will scrutinize it to THEIR specs, providing state law was not encroached.

Avid- you would be as illegal as him.  It CAN'T be a "snagged" fish!!

All Avid has to do is claim he was trying to catch it in the mouth.

You guys need to realize the IGFA just keeps records.  If a potential record meets thier rules than it gets accepted. In the case on the Weakley fish the DFG felt the fish was returned in a reasonable amount of time considering the situation. No Ticket, not even a warning so, the IGFA could justify that particular part of the aplication. Acording to the IGFA foul hooking is also OK if it is not intentional.

It would seem as though the CA game warden who witnessed this deal is being extremely lax in his duties.  

The fish was foul hooked, then stuck on a stringer, then drug around the lake while the particulars called their lawyer, then hauled to the dock for a weighing before being released.

I won't even get into the stupidity of someone attempting to fish for the WR bass and not having a sufficient livewell on-board to maintain the catch but if you can't see from anyone else's perspective how this fish shouldn't be considered I doubt you'll ever change your mind.

But I will give you an example:

The state of Missouri closes it's rivers to bass fishing from Feb-May to allow for the best reproduction of the bass population during the spawn.  If I catch a bass, I MUST RELEASE IT IMMEDIATELY!  No sticking it on a stringer so I can take a picture for a precious Kodak moment later, no putting in the livewell so I can weigh it later. Nope, it has to be released.  I suppose I can take a quick picture and/or weigh it at that time but anything beyond that is illegally taking possesion of the fish.  If a game warden were to witness my taking possesion I'd be ticketed and instructed to release the fish immediately.  If a GW happened upon me and saw the fish stringered or did a livewell inspection the same thing would happen.

It appears as though the CA game warden chose to look the other way.  Maybe he thought there might be a couple bucks in it for him, maybe the notoriety of this catch might get his name in the papers. Whatever the reason he failed to do his duty.

Why does any of this matter?  Because had Weakley actually followed CA law that fish never would've been photographed or weighed because it was supposed to be released immediately.  He illegally took possesion of that fish for his own gain.  With a current record clouded in controversy, why create another one, which could stand for many years, even more controversial.  

It just seems the CA fishermen are getting real desperate to get this record.  As I and others have said,  take some lessons on how to handle yourselves when catching a giant bass, learn the CA rules and be prepared.  These trophy hunters out there seem to be long on intention but way short on brains.

[Guest avid]

It just seems the CA fishermen are getting real desperate to get this record.

the above statement is so  true.  It's almost as if they KNOW the next

WR will come from Cali, and they are running a desperate race to be the "winner"

I can see how it is exciting for them.

But I hope some kid in Louisiana whose family lost everything in Katrina catches the big one, and manages to generate some $$$ for him and his family.  Plus give a boost to the local economy.

PS - I have said it before and I say it again.

I hope this fish that is literally a "marked woman" dies of natural causes before being caught.

She's gone through quite enough I think.

[Raul]

Cart, you may take the pic of the fish while you are in the process of unhooking it, weighting it ........ that 's possesion of the fish ----> breaking the law, the law says: NO possesion, therefore no weighting: no weight, no record.

You can 't choose which laws to obey, you have to obey them all until those laws are changed or eliminated.