Swim Bladder in Fish caught in 30' of Water?

[Jolicious]

My buddy was telling me that he has been told to "stick" a fish's swim bladder when he catches fish in 30' or deeper water to relieve pressure.

1.)  is he sending me on a "Snipe Hunt"  ;D

2.)  Where do you stick them, and with what?

Thanks guys.

[RoLo]

Fish taken from depths over 100 ft are not expected to survive if they are released.

Their vital organs are usually ruptured by the sudden and extreme reduction in water pressure.

Even from lesser depths, the swim bladder in fish (not all have one) will usually blow-up like a balloon

sometimes ending up in the fish's mouth, caused by the rapid reduction in water pressure.

Released in this condition, a fish will likely die of exhaustion while attempting to defeat the buoyancy

of the enlarged bladder. Piercing the swim bladder allows the fish to return to the bottom, however

his chances of survival still depend on the extent of his internal injury (depth of water - rate of change).

Roger

[madddogg]

Here is a link to a thread on WesternBass.com that explains it and how to do it.

http://www.westernbass.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16830&highlight=swim+bladder

[Jolicious]

Perfect!  thank you very much.

[Matt Fly]

I don't pretend to be know it all, but I have never seen that approach from the anal area.

The place that they say to stick them seem farther back than any article I have read.

I can assure you some one else will be along soon and agree that the method used on that link is close, but farther back than most articles advise.

The suggestion of going through the mouth is the method I now use and takes all guess work out from sticking the fish in the wrong spot.

I will find BFR link and post.

Matt.

[RoLo]

I don't pretend to be know it all, but I have never seen that approach from the anal area.

The place that they say to stick them seem farther back than any article I have read.

I can assure you some one else will be along soon and agree that the method used on that link is close, but farther back than most articles advise.

The suggestion of going through the mouth is the method I now use and takes all guess work out from sticking the fish in the wrong spot.

I have to agree with Matt

We can't forget that we're dealing with a fish that's already highly stressed and in serious condition.

I personally would not attempt to perforate a swim bladder I couldn't access through the mouth

Roger

[Brian_Reeves]

At most tournaments there are trained personelle that will handle this for you.  On an all day tournament though, it would be wise to know how to do it.  I don't really know how, but I intend on getting someone to show me before I start fishing FLW amateur tournaments.  Right now, all I fish are after work 4 hour specials

I know I have seen saltwater fish get pretty jacked up when pulling them in from around 75-125ft.  I don't recall catching anything deeper than that, but from those depths it looks like the fish went through hell by the time he gets to the boat.  

Worse comes to worse and you can't save the fish's life, eat it.

[George Welcome]

http://www.insideline.net/1999/sak-0102-99.html

I don't recommend fizzing, but if it is absolutely needed you need to pay attention to detail.

[madddogg]

If you read the entire thread there is also detailed descriptions on doing it through the mouth. I would use whichever method you are comfortable with.

[Lane]

I am a proponent of implementing fizzing procedures to relieve distended airbladders.

As a biologist, I FIRMLY believe that ALL anglers that fish deeper water learn how to

properly, 'fizz" fish. I will try and describe two techniques that most people can easily

learn and implement.

First method: This method was developed by Mark Davis, who is a senior public relations

manager of Shakespeare. I know Mark personally, and he is very dedicated to conservation

methods for live release. This particular method is not practical in a tournament situation,

where the fish are retained for weigh in.

He attaches a barrel swivel to a short leader of 50-mono. Then he ties the tag end of the

mono to the bend of a hook, barb FILED off. He then ties another 1 to 2 foot of 50lb mono

to the eye of the hook. Then he ties a 16oz or bigger bell sinker to the the remaining tag

end. The rig can then be easily attached to a rod and reel, or ball of twine. All you have

to do is push the hook through the top of the part of the upper jaw and lower the fish.

Once the fish is lowered, use a slight pop of the rod or twine to set free. Many times the

fish will swim without the aid of the popping, when they have reached equalizing depths.

Second method: This method consists of using an 18guage needle attached to a homemade

rig for fizzing through the mouth. This method is easy and practical for tournament anglers.

The procedure of fizzing through the mouth is less invasive than through the side, and reduces

the chances of infection. Tim Cook recently taught me this method, and he is in the process

of completing a detailed video, etc.

When you open the mouth of the bass, you will notice two light orange to yellow pads located

at the back of the throat. Between these pads are folded tissue that expands down to the

gullet area. First locate the pads, and insert 18guage needle between the pads and down 1/4 of a inch.

my homemade rig consists of a 18 guage needle that I have attached to an empty ball point

pen with electrical or duck tape. Once the needle is inserted I turn the bass on its side under

the water. You will see the air bubbles escape out of the pen. This part is VERY important!!!

WHEN YOU START TO FEEL PRESSURE ON YOUR HAND THAT IS SUPPORTING THE BASS,

REMOVE NEEDLE FROM MOUTH!!!!!  You will feel the bass starting to sink, and that process

indicates that a sufficient amount of air has been removed. If you remove too much air

from the bass, he will sink to the bottom. If that occurs you will have to reinsert the needle

and add air. PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT!

One of the main reasons why I advocate fizzing, is because deep caught bass are doomed

to a slow death without it. Bass have a much better chance of survival if anglers are able

to relieve the airbladder as soon as possible after being brought to the surface. Sedation

makes the needle procedure MUCH easier, and reduces the stress of handling. I have seen

many anglers that are very good at relieving the airbladder by inserting an 18 gauge needle

through the side of the bass. That method does require some expertise, since vital organs

can be punctured. Like, I mentioned above, Tim Cook has video taped both techniques using

needles for airbladder relief. They should be available latter this year.

[RoLo]

Thanks Lane, I learned a lot.

Roger

[Brian_Reeves]

Mark Davis' catch and release method actually makes a lot of sense.  When divers come up too fast, they end up in a decompression tank where the pressure is put at x (depth the diver was at) and decreased to y (regular pressure) slowly.  If a fish is yanked up too fast, unhook him, admire him, then send him back to the depths where he came from.  Smart dude.

[Garnet]

I made a deal that wieghts about 3/4 lb. with a coat hanger hook and Eye. I just care exacter rod and hook the fish with out pentrateing skin and pull the fish back down. It works pretty good.

Garnet

[heresdustin]

I live up by Lake McClure and Don Pedro, and yes, we do "stick" the fish caught in 30' of water or more.  The procedure is fairly simple, and is definitely recommended (especially if you're fishing tournaments). All it consists of, is a small gauge needle with the syringe on the end (but no plunger).  After reeling up your fish, he is most likely going to look strange, being that he is floating and swimming in circles.  Get him (or her) on board, and about an inch behind their gills, and about half an inch, to an inch, below their lateral line, you're going to give 'em a shot!  Insert the needle, preferrably slowly, and then proceed to put your fish back in the water until you see bubbles coming out of the needle stuck in his (or her) side.  MAKE SURE you hold on to your fish though!!!! If he gets away, then your ousted on some weight, and your needle rig! Meaning that you can't "stick" any more of your fish! Which , in turn, means that every fish from there on out is going to go "belly-up" in your livewell.  Not good! So I would recommend bringing a couple of needle rigs with you.  Better safe than sorry!  Hopefully this information will be utilized.  Cheers!    

[Matt Fly]

    The fish is held vertical, that makes the straw and needle vertical in the mouth.

simply push the fish under water to watch the straw for gas expelling as it is submerged.  It will be bubbles that are seen.

Most of the time, this procedure is done at a few weigh-ins now and is becoming a newer method of choice as to laying the fish on their side.

Less at first is better, too much expelled gas makes for more stress.    You can always stick the fish again if it still has trouble maintaining neutral bouyancy while observing.

18 ga. needle can be inserted all the way without a danger of hitting vitals as long as you stay straight between the 2 crushing stones in the back of the mouth.

Standard length of needle is inch and half.    Although we use many different types in our hospital, the IM needle is inch and half and works good on bass and the mouth approach.

Hookem

Matt.

[senile1]

Wow, good thread and good info from everyone.  I generally don't fish lakes where I will need to do this, but I fished Table Rock earlier this year and the fish there are deep enough to need this procedure.  Thanks to everyone.  

[Lane]

Matt, you can insert the 18gauge needle through the mouth then lay the fish in a

horizontal position or on its side. The reason for this is because it is much easier

to feel the fish begin to sink while it is in a horizontal position, than if it is in a vertical

position. Most state biologists discourage fizzing, due to the removal of too much air.

They have witnessed many fizzed fish sink to the bottom and die. I use a 2inch needle,

but a inch and a half will work as well. It is illegal to fizz fish using a needle in Minnesota,

so anglers have to use a deep water release, like the Mark Davis method.

[Keithscatch]

Uhmm, I seriousely doubt Mark Davis pionered the procedure Lane mentioned. Here is that exact procedure for those who wish to see illustrations. THis has been a procedure done for a long time for Rockfish which are caught at very great depths.

http://seagrant.oregonstate.edu/sgpubs/onlinepubs/g05001.pdf#search=%22releasing%20fish%20caught%20from%20deep%20safely%22

[Lane]

Keithscatch, Don't really know how to take that last post? But I don't think that I

said that Mr. Davis pioneered, "deep water release". He did however develop the

particular method that I posted. His method is published in the Ontario Ministry of

Natural Resources under, "Alternate Release Techniques". It is listed right under

Doug Hannons release technique. The publication can be found and downloaded

off the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources website. At present the Ontario Ministry

DOES not encourage any other methods other than what is listed in the "Alternate

Release Techniques", section. The method of fizzing through the mouth is not

mentioned in the published document. There are several techniques for deep release,

as posted by Garnet. I picked the Davis method, because I feel like it was a simple

technique and the equipment used is easy to find and implement by most anglers.

My intentions are to help anglers with methods that they may not be familiar with.

I am one of the FEW biologists that condone swim bladder deflation by artifical means

in a tournament situation.

[KYbass1276]

Wow it's true you learn something everyday.  I had never even heard of doing that I was thinking when I read the question the replies where going to be a snipe hunt.  

[Banor]

I skimmed most of the replies and may be repeating what someone else mentioned but...

If a fish is suffering from bloating due to being caught deep, waiting until after weigh in and pre-release most likely will be too late.  If you are going to fizz it needs to be imediately or the damage will most likely be done by the time weigh in comes around.

Just IMO.

B

[Matt Fly]

Lane,

Placing the fish vertical allows the gas to travel upwards naturally.  

While the needle is inserted, are you going to allow the fish to sink while holding its jaw?   Or are you gonna stick the fish and pull the needle and see how the fish does?

Hard to tell what the fish is gonna due if your holding the fish as you implied while venting gas to see  if it sinks while someone is holding the fish at the same time.

Tim is a very good federation representitive.    He has been working hard in TX for our missing funds from the state that we have been charged the past two years.

I look forward to his video, it should help lots of anglers save lots of fish in the future.

matt.

[cart7t]

I've spent some time bottom fishing in SW.  With more and more species going to size limits or seasonal bag limits it makes little sense to fish in 75 - 100 ft or more of water, bring a 14 inch red snapper up or a short or out of season grouper up and then have to release them unless you can properly vent the fish.  I've watched the guys do it that have experience and their success rate is around 50-75%.  They usually went in from the rear.  What's worse is to watch the flotsam of floaters from behind a head boat.  If those guys get into a good school of smaller fish the deck hands are usually to busy helping customers with their fish to properly vent them.  

Flipper sure makes out real good though.

[Lane]

Matt, One hand supports the jaw with the inserted needle,straw,etc, and the other

hand lightly supports underneath the body. When you start to feel slight pressure on the hand

supporting the body, pull out the needle. The air will escape to the surface. The main

thing is to practice and take your time.

Tim Cook is the one that taught me the fizzing procedure going through the mouth. He will

be demonstrating the procedure to the TPW Sharelunker biologist latter this year. Tim is

one of the most dedicated conservationists out there, you will not meet a more honest

and sincere person! Hopefully his video will be completed by the end of the year. It helps

to see the procedure being performed on a live fish.

[George Welcome]

"Most fisheries management agencies don't recommend deflating the air bladder.

"Fizzing or releasing the pressure from the gas bladder is sometimes used to facilitate release of undersized fish. "Fizzing," when done correctly, is a process where gas is released from the gas bladder of a fish by inserting a needle in the side of the fish and puncturing the gas bladder. Many anglers who practice fizzing are actually puncturing the stomach. In actuality, it is the pressure in the gas bladder that must be released.

A fish that is unable to remain upright in the water because it is severely stressed and/or has an over-inflated gas bladder, stands a poor chance of surviving, if released. While helping a fish regain its ability to return to the bottom of the lake, many fish that are "fizzed" end up dying within a few days of release, from the stress of being caught and handled. There is also the likelihood that when you insert the needle into the side of a fish you will damage internal organs such as the kidney or intestines.

When a perch is quickly brought up from depth, the stomach is forced out through the mouth as the gas bladder expands from a decrease in pressure as the fish is brought to the surface.

There are two major different types of gas bladders in fishes: physostomous, in "primitive" fishes and physoclistous, in "derived" fishes. Your understanding of lake trout physiology as related to the air bladder is correct. Lake trout are among the generalized fishes known as Physostomi, which have a direct connection (pneumatic duct) between the air bladder and digestive tract. This duct facilitates the direct passage of air in either direction. Typically, this group of fishes fill the air bladder by gulping air form the surface and release air from the bladder by burping.

Physoclistous gas bladders, however, do not open to the mouth, so the fish has to let gas in and out of the bladder using a very complex little patch of blood vessels that absorb or let go of gases from the blood. Fishes with these bladders include bass, perch, and sunfish."

Chuck Murray, Fisheries Biologist

Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission

Lake Erie Research Unit

PO Box 531

Fairview, PA 16415

Note the difference in the location of the bladder between the two.

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:gRU3smsq2dcJ:www.mnr.gov.on.ca/MNR/pubs/Fizzing.pdf+fizzing+largemouth+bass&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

A good read - almost all DNR's are against "fizzing" as there are very few fishermen out there with the knowledge of the fish's anatomy that is good enough to perform this procedure. With bass it is required to relieve pressure in the bladder, not the stomach, as the two are not connected. If you bring a largemouth from depth quickly, it is the stomach that you are seeing that is being pushed out, not the bladder.