Fishing Guides worth it?

[George Welcome]

Rockville,

Ken's a good friend and has been doing this for a long time. When he has fished with me his humor made for short days and great times. The guides he hires are pretty much the same. Glad to hear you had a great time with the outfit.

[George Welcome]

No time for eating Kent - gotta keep the bait wet. Come fishing with me and just after you bite into a sandwich I am hauling in the big one.

[captgene]

Avid,

The No fish No pay means for the client to catch a legal size bass on artificial bait. Although I have never held anyone to that deal if they catch 3 or 4 small bass and I felt it was just one of those days the fish were not hitting I do not charge them, and I offer for them to fish the next day I have open. I would rather have them as a repeat customer than just take their money. If the weather cuts the day short I let the customer decide what to do. Either pay a part day or come back to fish again.

Not all guides are just in the business for the money, some of us just love to fish and to teach others to learn to fish better and show folks some of the awesome fishing and lakes and rivers we have here in Florida.  If there is anything more I can do to make guiding trips better and more enjoyable for folks feel free to let me know.

[Keithscatch]

This can become a touchy subject but I have to say that most guides fish along with their clients. Is that right? I personally think it is not. I think allot of guides love to fish as much or more then the clients they take out and that is why the guides typically fish all day.

As far as fishing to pattern biting fish. Well, that is a toughy also. For instance if I was fishing on a lake every day for a week and I invited someone to come fish with me. I am not a guide so I woudn't charge. Anyway, I could point out "spots" that I have repeatedly caught fish on all week long. I would say to my partner cast to that spot. I have done this many many times over the years and allot of times they hooked up with a fish. I could have cast to that spot myself and caught that fish but I enjoy seeing my partner catch some too. Point I am making is if a guide is on the same water all the time then he is going to know where the fish are biting and on what. So while I agree with the fishing to establish biting fish theory often times (not always) I think that is used as an excuse for the guide to fish.

What guides need to realize is the perception of people who hire them isn't always the same as the Guide think's it ought to be. But the client is paying to be guided. So if the client pays to be guided. What does guided mean? Here is what dictionary.com says about GUIDE:

guide[ch8194] /ga[ch618]d/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[gahyd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, guid[ch8231]ed, guid[ch8231]ing, noun

verb (used with object) 1. to assist (a person) to travel through, or reach a destination in, an unfamiliar area, as by accompanying or giving directions to the person: He guided us through the forest.  

2. to accompany (a sightseer) to show points of interest and to explain their meaning or significance.  

3. to force (a person, object, or animal) to move in a certain path.  

4. to supply (a person) with advice or counsel, as in practical or spiritual affairs.  

5. to supervise (someone's actions or affairs) in an advisory capacity.  

Synonyms 1. pilot, steer, escort. Guide, conduct, direct, lead imply showing the way or pointing out or determining the course to be taken. Guide implies continuous presence or agency in showing or indicating a course: to guide a traveler. To conduct is to precede or escort to a place, sometimes with a degree of ceremony: to conduct a guest to his room. To direct is to give information for guidance, or instructions or orders for a course of procedure: to direct someone to the station. To lead is to bring onward in a course, guiding by contact or by going in advance; hence, fig., to influence or induce to some course of conduct: to lead a procession; to lead astray. 5. regulate, manage, govern, rule. 6. pilot, director, conductor. 7. sign, signal, indication, key, clue.

As long as the "guide" is leading, directing, teaching, instructing, helping, pointing the way, etc. then a guide is worth every penny. If the guide is another fishermen who fishes along side you all day catching many times the biggest fish of the day. Then personally I don't think they are worth their fee. Also, a guide is an expert on his or her water. But would be like allot of other talented fishermen who fish lakes and rivers on a strange body of water. Many guides falsly view all clients to be inferior to them in skill. That is not always the case. I know some pro's hire guides to learn the water they are going to be fishing on. The guide is more knowledgeable about that particular water but is not any better of a fisherman then the pro who hired them.

Their are a great deal of misconceptions about what a guide is and what they are not. That is why I started my site. I really wanted to provide a site to help people understand what a guide is and what they are not. Guiding someone else is allot like any other service oriented business. Those that know how to take care of their clients and treat them with respect and help them are the ones who flourish. Those that see this as a way to get paid to fish are usually the ones who disappear.

[captgene]

I just let the customer decide if he wants me to fish or not.  I get a bigger kick out of seeing folks I guide for catching fish than if I catch them. Besides then I can focus on boat controll and I can rig up another rod with a different bait so it is ready when they need it.

[Guest avid]

I look forward to seeing your site when it is up and running.  Hiring a guide is an expensive proposition, especially when there is travelling involved.  

To me references and alot of conversation with the guide are essential.  Each of you needs to make your positions clear.  I had planned to take a trip this fall with George after my surgery, but he and I have opposite views on an essential topic.  Namely, the guide fishing.  I don't want it.  

Sure I could rent a boat to fish a lake, but I don't want to waste my time running around a lake I am not familiar with.  I expect a guide to do what his name says .....GUIDE me to likely spots and suggest likely lures and presentations.  If I catch em great, if not, so be it.  

The notion that the guide has to fish so he can put you into active fish, is nonesense. IMHO there is absolutely no reason for a guide to have to fish when his client is an experienced, skilled angler.  If he thinks I need more "pop" in my chug bug, then tell me, I know how to do it.  

A quick review of the suggested tackle from any guide site will show all the same lures you are using right now,  ratltraps, c-rigs, soft plastics etc.

There are no secret magic baits that only work in the hands of a paid guide.

 

Virtually every fishing guide becomes one because they love to fish.  That's cool but don't expect me to pay you hundreds of dollars so you can catch fish.  As far as I'm concerned, your at work.  If I"m having fun and catching fish, sure I'll invite you join the fun, but as the person footing the bill I expect to have the final word in that regard.

You need to make everything clear beforehand.

As far as tipping.  Even though a guided trip is expensive, I believe in tipping.  I tip commensurate to the effort and quality of the guide.  Of course it helps to have a heavy bag, but if the guide works hard, and shares knowledge with humor and a giving spirit, then I can be very generous regardless of the catch.

[George Welcome]

Avid,

All you do is read that a guide fishes, then close your eyes and read no further. I would suspect that you have not been out with a guide and really have no idea what to expect. If I did as you suggest a guide should do then I would already be out of business..

"If I catch em great, if not, so be it." That's easy to say but end of day quickly forgotten as you tell all how the guide you were with sucked.

The reality is that each lake is different. Some have docks, points, and other such structure. Others are vast open bodies of water with no indication of what's going on. Sonar is a wonderful invention but contrary to what you think it isn't as likely to get you that big fish as a guide poking and probing will.

However, as I have said many times- ask before you go.

I had considered taking Avid fishing back when he first mentioned it, but after hearing his views: not on a bet. Avid you don't need a guide - get a buddy to take you fishing.

 

[Guest ouachitabassangler]

There were a few times customers wanted me to fish alongside, mostly for stripers, to be sure to take  pictures home with lots of tail draggers and tubs of fillets. There have been a LOT of folks who just couldn't feel a bite or set a hook, so I would hook a bass and hand them the rod to finish the job. It just depends on what a customer wants. Others just want some quick demonstrations then it's all theirs, in which case I handled the backlashes, bait tying, trolling, neting, etc. It's a full time job with two or more folks just taking care of those things, no time to fish anyway. As for a definition of a fishing guide, I think that's exactly what the guide declares and customer accepts. If you booked me then got sick from having beer for breakfast, there would be no discount. Sometimes folks were in such terrible physical shape they couldn't take wave bouncing. No refund, no raincheck.

In my case I had a full time job on the river, but my old 60 HP 16' bassboat wasn't something to guide out of. I sprung for a new 20' Ranger with a 175 hp motor since banks didn't like financing used ones, so I found myself with a big monthly payment and extra fuel bill. I could have been quite happy with the old setup and fishing with friends, no money passing hands. But when you go into business, you better operate as a business. No business is a business that doesn't make profit. No profit, no upgrades. If upgrades come out of your personal assets, that ultimately means you are not really in business but are running a not-for-profit enterprise probably at a loss. Our newspapers have had several guides (and tournament pros) that were excellent anglers in the bankruptcy columns. There are just too many bad days when things go wrong to pass on payment for working time invested. I can see a guide with personal wealth willing to guide for the fun of it, not worrying about being paid for every hour on the water devoted to a customer.

If anyone is reading this and thinking about guiding, listen up. You MUST make a living to pay your personal bills and MUST make above that to stay equipped with a modern boat, tackle, baits, live bait & circulator, license fees, self employment tax (higher than a personal income check from an employer), and just general expenses far exceeding what you've been used to, going out most every day unending until winter, wearing the tow vehicle out faster, burning a lot of fuel. Many hours on the road is for fetching stuff to set up a client.

I listened to some guides at a Bassmaster University seminar speaking about guiding, one I think running a guide school somewhere out West. Every one of them were certain most folks not paying for a trip would mostly remember something negative about that guide, earmarking some forgotten failure, not likely to come back or recommend that guide. The ones that come back find some success most trips, learning that fishing for bass carries no certainties. The whole thing is like lots of folks with plenty of money who believe "cheap" is beneath them, figuring on paying their way success or not, then complaining over a marina charging $2 for a 16 oz soda. They will often shop for the priciest guide available, believing top dollar gets top opportunity, yet stoop to pick up a penny or discarded worm on the ramp. Funny thing the highest priced guides here always stay busy with back to back clients day and night while the economy guides are mostly resigned to fishing alone or with a buddy most days.

Jim

[vincedia]

Wow everyone!

This topic got a lot deeper than I ever imagined, and thank you all for that. Besides making me think about guides and their services in different ways, you got me thinking about the different "types" of guides that are out there.

Mainly I started thinking if it was really a guide that I was looking for. I think teacher or mentor would be a better word. I don't think I am at the point yet where I need to know everything about the waters that a guide in my area covers. What I am really looking for is the ability to watch and learn from someone more experienced than myself. I would like to see things like cadence and how different lures are suggested to be worked. Those types of things you just can't get from reading a site (even great sites) or watching a video. Sadly video's mostly show anglers reeling in the fish, not how many casts or lure changes it took to get that fish hooked.

At this stage in my fishing experience I would hope that my guide or teacher would be fishing along with me, but now I know to make sure that expectation is known up front and to let him know why I want him fishing with me. I would make sure that my guide would be giving me pointers and be willing to put the rod down to show me the technique that was working for him.

One last thing about guides suggesting me to use their lures and equipment. I want to learn how to use my equipment and lure selection. I hope that my guide would be able to show me what types of lures I already own work with my rods/reels and fishing conditions instead of suggesting I go and feed the bait monkey. I mean giving me an opportunity to try something new is never a bad thing, and some people may have crud for lure selection, but I would like to think that I have something in my tackle box that is useful. If that is the case...teach me how it's used. If I do have crud for tackle, please explain that to me, and then show me what I should be using. I believe a good guide/teacher should be able to use what is readily available to me, and catch some fish with it.

Vince

[George Welcome]

Vince,

Your best option for equipment is your own as this is what you will be always using. If I were you I would be looking for either a shore buddy that's been fishing for a while or a local club.

[Banor]

Thinking outside the box here but...  have you thought of tournament fishing as a co-angler/non-boater?  A very good way to learn new things from other anglers.  And if you get fortunate and progress, maybe even cut a check!  The cliche of time on the water comes to mind... there's no substitute for it.  

Another option is find someone to mentor you.  An aquaintance, friend of a friend... or just a passing angler on the lake.  There are very few anglers I've run into who werent willing to stop and share some experience and tips when asked, myself included.   9 out of 10 times if I head out solo and happen to see a youngster or another guy fishing off the dock I'll kindly ask them if they want to join me for the day.  Fishing is so much more enjoyable when you have someone to chat with.

Just a couple out of the box suggestions.

B

[George Welcome]

And that Mr. bshaner is what a good portion of fishing is all about: sharing and learning.

Kudos to you for that attitude!

[Banor]

Thanks G!  I didnt mean to hijack the thread but this sounds more like what he's after.

B

[vincedia]

I would love to do that...my problem is location.

The one lake I get to fish at where there are other people...they all seem to a little on the anxious side to get their own fish. I mostly fish from the bank, and when I end up pulling something in, even a bluegill, I get two or three boats that end up on top of my bank throwing lines at me.

I rented a boat to try my challenge in the member challenge game, and my brother-in-law pulled in a bass we, no lie, had 5 boats surrounding us casting within a boats length from us.

I had a guy ask me if I got anything as I was packing my gear at the end of one day. I told him I didn't, and asked him if he did...he told me he god about a dozen 1-2lb fish. So I asked him where in the lake he was and what he was using. He told me where he was, but that his lure choice is top secret.

Now I know it was just bad luck, and I'm sure that 95% of fishing people are great people. I think that my lake selection is bad. This lake has too much pressure on it. My other locations have little to no people, and the few people that I have talked to have given me the same advice. "You'll never catch anything using plastic, try some live bait!" I get sick of that after a bit.

Thanks for the tips. I'm not giving up yet

Vince

[Guest ouachitabassangler]

All such issues should be settled up front. Oftentimes clients jump on a two engine plane bringing only a credit card, completely relying on the guide for everything. Some come with favorite rod in tow, and a few arrive fully equipped even bringing their own boat. Those got a nice discount, but up front before arriving. I agree, any learning with a guide or club partner or a co-angler is best done with your own equipment.

I thought of another thing to watch out for. I'm seeing more of this: "Our guide service proudly announces 125 years of fishing experience." What that means is the retired pro on the brochure might not be the 35 year famous veteran you are hoping to fish with. When you get there you are teamed with a 5 year bass angler, one of a dozen employed by a marina owner (the pro in the advertisement). While he's been well trained for that lake and might give you as good a trip as the most experienced among them, it can be a disappointment if not learning that in advance.

I'm on the lake about 100-120 times a year these days, and maybe 10% of the times with someone not very much of a basser. It just works out that way, knowing and fishng more experienced anglers than inexperienced. I've lost count of internet acquaintences I've taken out there, many comng here to spend their vacation camping at the lake. I show them everything I can in the time available, them using their own stuff, or maybe some of mine. Not a dime changes hands, but I do get in on a lot of BBQs and fish frys  ;D Quite often they quickly learn what a quality bass rod & reel is about, forsaking whatever they owned. I'll say this, it's tougher to learn to bass fish on cheap equipment, too much time lost fiddling with problems.  It's like travelling drug company reps. They don't travel the nation driving Yugos. They get a BMW or other quality vehicle. Not to show off, but for reliability.

Jim

[RodRick]

WOW! This turned out to be the best "back and forth", on this subject, I've ever seen.

I never gave a second thought to "Cliff's" fishing on the front deck, on the several times we were out on LOZ. Thing is, I caught more and bigger Bass than I would have without his services. He never out-fished me, never ignored instruction or demonstration, but, none-the-less, fished the whole time we were on the water. Honestly, and no offense to those who posted to the contrary, I had a better experience being on the back deck, than I would have if Cliff had stood beside me, giving item by item instruction on the foredeck. I felt part of an experience that I paid to share. Note, also, that I was rigged with the appropriate bait as soon as he was and, on the second cast/pitch/flip, was properly presenting my appropriate bait AND CAUGHT BASS.

I nearly choked the first time he gave me his rates, but after one trip out (that included a beautiful peach-colored sunrise opposite a rainbow and, later, a brutal thunderstorm, that felled trees across my line that had an 8lb bass at the other end), I had no problem shelling out his fee plus tip. At all times, we shared jokes, experiences, concerns, food and drink. It's the experience! I would be hesitant to limit my expectations to a guide being my servant/slave because I "bought" him.

My total experience is 3 guides, on 3 entirely different bodies of water and a total of 8 trips out. Blast every time. The guide in Lousiana, shortly before Katrina hit, balked at charging full fee because we were skunked! Tempting, but I paid the full amount, because it was an absolutely beautiful experience, I expected to pay the full, and he, and his boat, gave everything they had to the effort. I'll never forget that trip out.

Go for the experience! You'll get your money's worth. Disappointed with a dismal guide experience? Lighten up on the tip.

[Keithscatch]

What about the guide who fishes with live bait? The client buys the bait at sometimes as much as $15 per dozen for Shiners and has to buy 12 dozen of them at a cost of $180. Plus the fee for the guide and we are talking around $500 to fish. Now, what would you all do if that same guide fished using your bait that you bought all day until the bait ran out? Would that be kosher?

[George Welcome]

Come on Keith,

No guide fishes customer's live bait.

[deepsessions]

What about the guide who fishes with live bait? The client buys the bait at sometimes as much as $15 per dozen for Shiners and has to buy 12 dozen of them at a cost of $180. Plus the fee for the guide and we are talking around $500 to fish. Now, what would you all do if that same guide fished using your bait that you bought all day until the bait ran out? Would that be kosher?

that is major! couldn't imagine paying that much for bait!

I've been cosidering a few different guides for Clear Lake and the Delta here in Cali. There's too much information I figure I can learn about these two bodies of water and how the seasons,baits,etc effect the fish. I'd be harder pressed to pay these top dollar amounts somewhere I wouldn't be fishing unless we are talking about going Peacock fishing  ;D  I can't see how you could lose out on going out with a local guide unless you don't have much food on the table

[TR186FLA]

I guess I will chime too....

I have great experiences on the water with guides and I have had the absolute worst experience with guides.

Example: ( Not naming anyone, and as far as I could tell, the nightmare of guide has not posted on this thread , nor is a member here )

Good Time:

Been on the water with guide and he simply refused to pick up a rod and take part in the fun we were having, he stated, I am here teach you guys, put you on fish and make sure you have a great time for the money your paying me. This guide taught us about the water we were fishing, the species we were targeting, the envirement and local sites. Was the best time I ever have had on the water, and because of all this my wife and buddie booked another trip with him for me on my birthday.

Bad Time:

Hired a guide to fish a well known central florida body of water known for big bass, since it was 100% catch and release. ( I'll let you folks guess the location )

Anyway we called him, got all the info, and setup the trip. We brought our own gear and lures based on what the guide had recomended to us on the phone. We met him at a gas station up the road from the ramp and followed him to the water. We got on the boat and before I knew it, we were fishing, no info on the water, structure info no teaching, area info, ect.. before we knew it, he was on the first fish of the day. He continued to front end myself and my buddie and realy put a hurtn' on us.. He fished the entire day, caught prob. 2 times the total to both of us, and also caught most of the larger fish. My friend and I had just dropped over 350.00 to go fishing with a guide. It was a complete disgrace, that this guide thought it was just fine to fish all day, we tried to in a round about way ask early in the am about this, and it was simply sluffed off, as this is normal, I always fish with my clients.... Needless to say I would never recomend this guide to anyone, and now know in the future to ask the question:

DO YOU FISH , or GUIDE......

Just want to add one more thing.. yes it is fine for a guide to fish to teach his client, and make sure they are on fish or even as in the case I stated above we were on so many fish all day long and having such a great time with our guide.. we were begging him to pick up a rod and have some fun with us.. BTW this particular guide has a TV show here in Jax Fla, and and taped shows with legends like Mark Sosin... and he was as down to earth, friendly and accomidating as we could ever have expected. He even let us  GPS corrodinates of all the spots we fished with him, so we could come back on our own in the future, without even asking him.. he simply told us on the phone if u got a hand held bring it with...

[Keithscatch]

I know George. I was just playing with you. I know guides don't use their clients bait.  ;D

[TR186FLA]

But do they eat their client twinkies and moon pies....  ;D ;D just kidding.....

[Guest avid]

"If I catch em great, if not, so be it." That's easy to say but end of day quickly forgotten as you tell all how the guide you were with sucked.

The reality is that each lake is different. Some have docks, points, and other such structure. Others are vast open bodies of water with no indication of what's going on. Sonar is a wonderful invention but contrary to what you think it isn't as likely to get you that big fish as a guide poking and probing will.

George, it's obvious that you and I will not be fishing together but we are both gentleman and won't let this disagreement collapse into a flame war (nor would Glenn permit it)  but you seem to be under the impression that professional guides are automatically better fisherman than their clients.   As I said before I need a guide to show me where the likely spots are, and recommend presentations.  Your not "proving" anything to me by catching fish I could have just as easily caught.  

As far as gettig skunked and saying your guide sucks, well most sportsman who use guides realize that that will happen sometimes.  But how many paying clients will praise their guide, when the guide catches the 8 lber, and continues to fish from the front of the boat while the guy who pays the bill is literally pulling up the rear?

I have no more to say on this.

People will do what they think is best, my position is clear enough.

[Randall]

As a guide I can tell you that at least 95% of my clients want me to fish and if I stop they usually ask me to keep fishing. They are also the ones who usually have the best results on the trip. I always tell a client to comunicate with me about what they are thinking on the trip and I will do the same with them. As for the others who state right off the bat that they do not want me to fish at all sometimes they have a good trip but sometimes they dont. Why? Because they miss the little details that make a difference between catching the fish in a location where there are fish and just casting to the fish I have put them on and not catching them. I just like George would probably no longer be guiding if I left everything in the hands of my clients. I personally don't do but one or two live bait trips a year so I cant tell you how a guide should do with live bait but with artificials in most cases you will be better off if the guide fishes some and you don't tie his hands behind his back.  Now that dont mean the guide should catch all the fish in one small area after he figures out how to catch the first one or two. But if my client goes for a while without catching fish you can bet he is much better off with me figuring out what the problem is and catching one so that he can catch more. Fishing changes from day to day, hour by hour, and minute by minute and usually the guide (if he is a good one) knows best what things to try on his lake to adjust and can do it faster than the above average angler and get the client back to catching and not just casting at fish. I look at my job as a guide is to help the client catch fish not just taking him to where they are. If a client upfront tells me something like I read in Avids post I would most likely politely suggest they find another guide as well because my experience is that in most cases I can do a much better job as a guide with another client on that day or take the day to find more fish for the next days client  if I don't book that day. I just like to be able to do my best at what I do without my hands tied behind my back. Now to the original question. Some guides are good teachers and others are not. There is a difference between just guiding and teaching. Good guides can do both and make the trip fit your needs as a angler but from my experience those are the hardest ones to find. I would probably also try to find a local club that has a bunch of guys that are willing to share info and techniques with others or a fishing buddy that knows more about fishing than you do now. With the price of gas seems there should be plenty of guys looking to share the price of gas on their boat for a trip.

[JDPgator]

I have to say this is a very interesting topic, but a couple of things stand out to me.

First it's very interesting to hear things from a guides perspective because in reality it's a their job. Just as each of us have our frustrations with our own jobs it is easy to see the human side of it for guides. It's not just playing on the water all day.

Second, it could just be how I am reading these posts but I am a bit surprised at how I perceive some of the guides as coming across a bit heavy handed - especially since you are talking to potential customers. Case in point I have considered hiring a guide to fish in SoFLa and did some research on a saltwater flats guide I saw on TV. Well a customer detailed his experience on another forum and one issue was that the guide fished so much. To a novice like me that seems like a reasonable opinion.

Now I would absolutely have asked if a guide planned to fish. If the potential guide said "you sit where I tell you, you fish where I say, and you use the baits that I recommend",  then it'll be cold day in hell before I would be giving him my money. As a married man of 10 years I ain't paying nobody else to boss me around when I get it for free at home.  ;D  

That said if the potential guide were to explain why they would fish some and how it could benefit me - then I think two things are accomplished: I understand part of the guides job because he taught me what his job entails and the guide understands that I am not paying for his day of fishing, which was the customer's perspective in the earlier story. JMHO.