should your guide fish during the day?

[Guest hydrillagorilla]

What is the opinion here???

The question is:  If you hire a fishing guide, should he fish while you are fishing, without an invitation?  

IMO- I think not.  

If I hire a 'guide' I am supposedly hiring someone who is the best and most knowledgeable on the piece of water he 'guides' on.  

I am paying money for him to use all his energy on helping me catch fish that day.  I can hardly say he is doing a good job of that if he is fishing.  I think he should be on the bite and have the day planned out and the lure selection, locations, etc. should be based on his knowledge of the water, location, time of year, etc.  

now I understand if we don't catch any fish, heck that is fishing, but if we didn't catch any fish, and he fished all day, I would be a disapointed in my decesion to hire this guy.  

That is one anglers opinion, what do you guys think?  

[FutureClassicChamp]

ive never been with one, but i wouldnt mind if he did. i have guided and been on guided musky trips and the guide almost has to fish. so i am used to it. therefore i would not have a problem, unless they were catching fish and i wasnt.

[double a]

I think that once the guide has his/her client set up and fishing, that he should be experimenting with different lures/baits to see what the fish are biting on.  Once or if he makes a discovery, the guide should put their rod down and watch the client reel em' in.

Remeber, all the guide is trying to do is put the client on fish...two rods are better than one to find them.  Even if the guide has been on good fish all week, we all know that patterns change daily/hourly and some days will require more work than others.  

[roadwarrior]

This is part of a response I posted last week regarding "How to hire a guide".

Your guide should be a professional and this is a job for him not a day on the lake. Depending on where I'm going, who I'm taking and the particular guide I've hired, they sometimes fish, but usually they do not. I expect the guide to put me on fish and provide some local advice as to what's working. I don't necessarily "expect to catch fish", but I do expect my guide to try his best to find them.

As a specific example, I have a couple of guides hired this weekend. I'm taking my 76 year old dad and a 75 year old friend of his. The two days the three of us are trout fishing on the White River, the guide will not fish. I don't have to tell him that, he will be busy! The third day it's just me and the guide, who I also consider a friend, fishing the lake (Bull Shoals). I'm paying full bore retail for that third day, but my guide will fish the front of the boat and we will be equal partners in every way.

[Matt Fly]

Only if he's showing (demonstrating)  techniques or searching for the pattern or was asked to.  One key element is to talk about what you expect from him before the booking.  Most people are afraid to tell the guide how they feel about him fishing.  If you mention that your friend booked a guide last week and was upset that the guide caught 15 and him 3,  Ask him is it going to be that way with you?

He will get the message.

[Muddpuppy]

As long as they don't forget about me and my party, I wouldn't care.  I go quite a bit by myself, so I like the idea of "fishing with a guide."   I do think they should ask or have it clear from the beginning.   I would probably prefer they did fish at least some.  It would give me the chance to see how they are working the baits, and possibly pick up a few tips and tricks without really haveing to ask and one could try other things, ect.   My trip would be for fun in the first place and even though they are getting payed it just doesn't seem right (downright creepy) haveing somebody just sit there and watch you fish.  If they have their trip planned and the equipment in order there shouldn't be alot for them to have to do, for anyone that I would take (excludeing my wife who can keep at least 2 busy changing lures).   Hopefully they aren't going to be overhaulling the motor or glueing plastic worms back together.  Besides if they are a really skilled angler it might be worth the some of the price just to watch them in action.  

[roadwarrior]

Matt_Fly,

I would consider that a great day as long as my guide's 15 averaged 2 lbs and we boated comparable total weights!

[Reaction_Strike]

Okay, I don't get it.  I've never hired a guide, so bear with me here, because I guess I don't understand the whole concept.

You're basically hiring someone to take you out on the water (in his boat I assume?) and locate fishing hotspots.  This person is probably a local, or at least knows the location well.  Not only is this person supposed to know where the fish are, but has some working knowledge of what kind of baits would be successful in said location.

So....how is the guide supposed to know where the fish are unless he goes fishing?

I'm sure he has several locations that any guide with fishing knowledge would have, and a "home field" advantage as well.  But how is he going to know what works at what doesn't unless he's out there doing it too?  Personally, I would WANT him to be fishing.  I would hope everyone catches fish, but if either my party or myself isn't catching anything, and he is...that he'd be able to tell us what's working.

To answer the original question, I would hope the guy would ask if we minded if he fished along with us.  Just seems like the professional and courteous thing to do.

[George Welcome]

If all you are looking for is local knowledge, go to a bait shop, don't hire a guide. If you are looking for an educational and productive trip then expect the guide to fish. That doesn't mean the you will be front boated as any guide that is worth anything is an expert at handling the boat to keep you in the zone.

Also, bear in mind that not all fishing is the same. If I was taking a trip for trout I would expect to be shown productive eddies and such, not to have the guide ****** the trout that is sitting there. Trout and bass are nothing alike. If I was going muskie fishing I would expect the guide to be handling the boat, not grabbing the rod that gets hit. Muskies and bass are not the same. If I am going for saltwater fish such as reds I would expect the guide to be pointing out the reds to cast to, not catching them. Saltwater fish and bass are not the same.

If I am on a bass trip I want the guide showing me that the fish are there, not just pointing a finger and telling me that they are.

As for fishing by invitation: sounds to me like you are on your boat and not the guide's boat. Somewhere you got lost in who owns the boat and who is the guest. As a guide's client you hired his expertise, you didn't buy his boat.

As a guide I run the show. I tell you when, where, and suggest how, which is what people pay me to do. If you don't want that kind of advice then it is probably best that you charter a boat.

As I previously stated: talk with a guide about your expectations and desires. If your not in agreement than move on to someone that agrees with you.

As someone said, bass fishing changes by hour, by day, and by week. If he isn't fishing than how is he going to know what is going on. Are some of you suggesting that he rely on your fishing skills? If that is what  he is doing than you didn't need to hire him in the first place.

To be disappointed in your decision to hire a guide if neither of you caught fish tells me that you haven't done much bass fishing. There will be those days, although rare and far between that the fish just won't cooperate no matter what. You may be disappointed, but probably not as much as any good guide is, but to blame him if he worked throughout the day is flat out rediculous.

So, that's the philosophy of an extemely successful and busy guide.

PS: Out of thousands of trips that I have done, I have only had one client ask me not to fish. After three hours of fairly non-productive fishing he asked that I show him that fish were in the area.  We went on that day to catch in excess of 70 fish including his long sought after 10+ pound bass. We did that with the same bait, and never left the same area. He just needed some demonstrated coaching. Monkey see, monkey do is an outstanding way to learn.

[Matt Fly]

reaction_strike

1. The guides i have used are all licesed with the state. They make a living at it. Over 250 licensed guides on Lake Fork. Dedicated, stays on the fish.

2. The guide I choose is one that is not chasing the tourney trail half the year. He is on the water 300 days a year on one lake. Not advertising for 4 different lakes. I feel he would be using prior knowledge that is no guarantee on catching fish. His last trip to that lake could have been weeks ago and i feel that a guide stays on fish to put clients on fish.

3. My weakness at one time was drop shotting.

What better way to learn, from a professional.

4. I do fish tournaments, love to travel, the best way to learn a new lake quickly is a licensed guide.

5. Some guides specialize in TROPHY BASS, not quanity, but quality. The going rate for a full day trip in Texas is $300 for one or two people.

6. Bait shops or tackle stores don't always give accurate info. He may tell you that the fat free shad in the tenessee color is tearing them up, just so you can buy some of his overstock.

7. Most guides that advertise will say one on one instructional trips available. Alot of guys wives have never bass fished.

8. I always tell the guide weeks before going what my goal is: A trophy Bass, or I have a tourney coming up next month in may, where will the post spawn bass be located, what will they hit, show me the places I'll need to be to put a 5 fish limit together. If bad weather arises then, what do the fish do, what baits, colors and etc...I take notes, or make notes on my topos. Its my money, I ask 100's of questions.

9. asctec- is right on also. I love to stripper fish once in awile. But I'm not going to put down riggers on my bass boat. A specialized guide is already rigged for your type of fishing. It might cost me more money to buy the right tackle with no guarantees of catching fish.

[BassinFever]

Good question:

I guide on my home lake, I do not fish any tournaments.

I do not fish on an average, I normally don't have time anyway.  Only time I fish is if I am trying to teach a new technique ot trying to find fish if it's tough.  A good gift of gab is absolutly necesary.

Sometimes if we are fishing an open area I have actually been invited to fish by the client, even then I will try new things and not fish in front of or with the same thing he is fishing with.

[Axis]

I say of course, I don't see why you wouldn't want them to. I don't think they should fish 100% of the time, but it would be odd to me to be on a guides boat and them not fish.

[nwgabassmaster]

Yes, I would want ANY guide that I hire to fish.  You are paying for his knowledge of the lake that he is fishing.  You came to him, he did not come to you.  

Therefore, it's his right to fish when he wants to fish.

Also, if the guides do like they do on Lake Weiss, especially for crappies and stripers, you WANT them to fish, cause they will usually give you their catch, so that you have the fillets.  They might keep a few of the fillets for themselve, for a meal.

However, I do fully expect for the guide to fish.  If he's not fishing, then, I worry about the area that he has taken me to.

[Guest hydrillagorilla]

It looks as if the opinion here is; yes, the the guide can fish (without being invited).

just not my guide >, unless he is invited 8).

[DDbasser]

For me, it would depend on the species fo fish i'm after.

If I was hiring a bass guide then I want him fishing, showing me new presentations I might not know and how to use lures that i may not be familiar with.

I am thinking of hiring a guide for a trip to Texas lake Fork in February.

I've never been to this lake before, I'm fairly new to bass fishing from a boat and I'm going to start fishing tournaments next year. A good guide can take years off your learning curve, and I expect him to fish and instruct me at the same time.

Now if I'm after crappie, strippers or hybrids then I hope my guide would be to busy baiting hooks and removing fish to actually fish himself.  

[Matt Fly]

Guides who are professionals, that make a living 365 days a year at it, know the pros and cons of them out catching their clients. If they have done their job, you will become a repeat customer or will strongly recommend them to someone else. Different times of the year and changing weather patterns cause fish to be transitional. A guide will aid you in finding the current pattern as quickly as he can, by testing the waters with a slightly different colors or another method. You hired him to put you on fish. Don't handcuff him by assuming he shouldn't fish. The guide also knows that his tip is resting on the success of the client or clients.

I will always tell the guide upfront, If I catch a 10lber, thats an extra 100. If I get a sharelunker, 13 lber in Tex. that is a free replica during Oct-Apr, thats an extra $300.00. You would be surprised at the effort they give to earn that tip. Now i get to see the spots he thinks will provide the lunker and what baits he thinks will get the job done.

You never know who he has booked, he might have a return customer flying in from out of state that has been coming down for years next day.  He might have had some  holes saved for this guy becuse of his repeat bookings. This guy never tips even when successful.  Now your guide is thinking of his tip.  You might see the mother lode of all holes.  A good tipper that comes back will always have the red carpet treatment.  

[Top]

since I am just starting out at fishing seriously.. my dream is a day with a guide in FLA,TX, or Castaic in CA, I would WANT my guide to fish, so I can watch him fish and mimic his technique and ask him 2 billion questions. Unfortunately I don't have the money to offer 100 or 300 dollar tips for the HUGE fish... but wow would it be awsome to catch a fish in the 10+ lb range!

my personal best so far is about 3 lbs  :-/

AL

[Nick]

I have guided and still do at times. I also fish professionally, and let me tell you, that when you are the guide, you don't learn much from clients to stay sharp like you do fishing competitive tours. Guides should fish with other pro's to learn even more about techniquesand gear.

As for fishing, I've seen guides who front ended the clients all day long, and I've seen those totally disinterested who wanted to quit by noon. The best one that I saw in action had that gift of gab and fished from the back of the boat "used water" with a transom mount trolling motor.

I think it's important for the guide to catch something to get the client fired up if his enthusiasm has waned, but guides have to put the rod down if the client is a good fish catcher.

I would never guide full time unless I could dip shiners in Florida or perhaps chase smallies across the north.

[Matt Fly]

Nick, its the other way around in "my opinion". Some of the all time money leaders in BASS were guides first. Being able to find fish fast is what a guide does everyday. I'm not going to go pay entry fees and expenses hoping that some guy (pro) whos competing against me, will teach me or show me how to beat him. Hopeful, I could catch fish before I joined the tour..Yes you might learn somethings. Just because you are a guide, you think the tour is gonna give the secrets away to a competitor. My point above about hiring a guide is. If he is somewhere else for six months instead of fishing where he advertised, I don't want him.

I want a dedicated guide and theres plenty where I am from. Kelly Jordan is a well known Guide on lake Fork. He didn't go pro to learn how to put clients on fish. He could do that just fine. If that was the only way to learn, going pro, why do we ask so many questions on the forums, especially when it may be a prospective client answering the question and not a pro. l

 Let me add that most guides that have proven them selves have boat sponsers and tackle sponsers that give them baits to test run.  So there are other ways to stay sharp besides becoming a pro.

[Yankee_Bassman]

I've never hired a guide, although I have been tempted to for salt water striper fishing off the Mass. coast. BUT, if I did, I wouldn't care if he fished, as long as he didn't fish ahead of me, all day.

I also suspect where you're hiring the guide makes a difference. If I hired a guide locally, I'd not only want him to put me on fish that day, I'd want to know why we were going where we went at that time of year, for conditions that day, with that bait, in that color, etc. I'd like to watch him fish a particular technique, to see if I'm doing it right, or just to improve my own styles.

If I'm making that trip that I hope to make some day to Quebec, for a one time experience, I frankly don't give a d**n why he chose the spot, and I don't care if his buddy is under water in scuba gear putting them on my hook, as long as I don't know it. (well, OK, no buddy in scuba gear, but you get the idea....)

If a guide is used to fishing with his clients, and you tell him he can't, I'm not sure he's going to like you very much, and he just might see to it that you caught, but not as well as you might have otherwise. I'll bet some of the guides on this board have some pretty entertaining stories they tell each other at secret guide get-togethers about clowns they've had a day on the water with.

[Fishnfishmore]

It would be sick and evil to make your guide sit there all day and watch you fish!

[Fishie]

I have fished with some guides on Kentucky Lake and Table Rock before and I have seen both ends of good guides and bad ones. They both fished but the good ones knew what the hell the bite was on for the day right away and it was easy whereas the bad ones where not as locked in on what areas to hit and were all over the place. I like what yahs said about tipping the guide if you can get a big one. That is a good idea in my opinion!

[Bass Hammer]

I think the key is letting your guide know what you expect to get out of your trip.

Hammer

[Guest avid]

I don't think it's necessary to tip like some high roller just to get a good fishing trip.  I want a guide who is there to put me into fish.  That is his job.  Once that is achieved and we are "good buddies" he can pick up a rod and show me some tricks.  I think getting a class guide makes all the difference.  I'm live in Port St. Lucie and would love to hook up with a local bass guide.

[George Welcome]

Let's talk about tipping: Tipping is neither required or expected, but it is most certainly appreciated. I have to take my wife out to dinner once in a while! Tipping tells me that the customers thought I did an outstanding job that day.

Let's talk about the guides job: The first part is to make you feel at home and maintain safety throughout the day. The second part would be to find the fish and show you how to catch them. The third would be to give instruction that you desire. The fourth would be to keep the trip upbeat throughout the day. The fifth would be to give you the full day of fishing that you expect to include boat management so that you are able to fish throughout the day.

To be able to do all the above it is important that the guide truly know the lake they are fishing intimately. This requires a constant and fulltime presence on the lake.

Things to watch out for: Part time guides - they are probably in the buisness to make boat payments and not in it for the the long haul. Guides who claim to fish multiple lakes - It's hard enough to know one lake well enough, let alone 3 or 4. Guides who don't provide a method of selecting your own references - hand fed references aren't worth a bunch. Guides who insist on the misguided premise that live bait is the only way to go. The are times and places for live bait, but live bait is not the end all way to catch quantity or quality. These are all red flags, but they are not your final consideration. Your final consideration should be made when actually talking with the guide to determine if you are compatible.

A big concern when hiring a guide should be safety! Is the equipment adequate to keep you safe and get you back to the ramp if the weather turns sour? I have heard stories of guides drinking while having clients out on the water - would you feel safe with a half drunk guide? I have heard stories of guides carrying fire arms on the boat - would you really feel comfortable with a stranger carrying firearms? I have heard stories of guides getting in arguments with other boaters on the water - would you feel comfortable with a guide who has a lack of temperment control?

A good guide keeps the day fun! A good client knows that fishing is far more than just catching, and participates in the day of fun.