More Mapping

[Paul Roberts]

Deeply overcast with some scary squall lines rolling through, bringing rain but no lightning close enough to chase us off. BP was high-ish and fairly steady over the past few days.

Large flocks of starlings in cottonwoods along shore, and a Cooper's hawk showed up too; They follow the blackbird flocks like lions follow wildebeest. Very autumn feeling, and indeed we are slipping rapidly into shorter days now.

72.5F ST, 71F 10ft @ 12:30pm. The surface lost a half a degree by dark. Note that's a loss during daytime. The slow bleed has begun.

A fishing buddy, Josh, met me today. We fish together a few times a year. I have mixed feelings about fishing with others. Josh is a really nice guy, a serious angler who notices stuff worth noticing. But, quite simply, other anglers are a distraction. We end up doing a bit too much chatting not a lot mind you, but enough to cause us both to miss things we normally wouldn't sometimes those are hard earned strikes.

Where are the fish here??

When Josh arrived I suggested he might want to just go off and fish, as my mapping might get a little tedious. I welcomed the company but knew he was chompin' at the bit to break in his new finessin' rod. I gave him a handful of 1/8oz jig heads and he had bought two packs of Zoom U-Tails. No, I'll come along. he said. He's smart the value of delayed gratification is not lost on him. He ended up with, and commented on, the fact that the sonar gave up spots on this water we'd have never found, or understood, otherwise.

On the way out to map a new area I passed over three suspended fish holding over the top of some very sparse brush. Too big to be perch carp? I ran a crank down to em and received a sharp slap bass. I tossed a jigworm back to em and came into good fish a 17+.

What are they doing out here over this flat table top bottom?, I thought. WellI'm beginning to get a more accurate understanding of the scale of the picture my sonar is showing me. A 20deg cone covers about 30% of depth -about 3 feet of coverage width at 10foot depth. This means I'm cutting a pretty narrow swath with my sonar.

I checked the surrounding area and found the answer. It's an 8ft shelf that juts out from this generally steep shoreline, then drops off into 10.5fow. Across this shelf, and off the drop in 10fow, is scattered brush, the largest about 4 feet tall with enough density to shelter bass and their snacks. I also spotted some, what appeared to be, medium sized fish around a denser patch of brush. Josh got hung on this brush, and when he kicked over and loosed his jig, he proceeded to pick up a nice sized crappie.

To complete this picture we have to factor in the weather the deep overcast that brought bass out of the brush, to suspend (and likely hunt) nearby.

Now, I was too busy right then to take a pic of the sonar screen, but, found this in the background of the pic of the captured bass above. So, here you go, some bass that had crawled out of cover to find some dinner.

I'll leave you with a related, cool sonar shot at the end.

In the new area I wanted to map out I found a nice boulder strewn shelf with a 7 to 11foot drop off. This made a turn out onto a long narrow finger bar with boulders on top and sides or likely it was a long pile of boulders left from construction. It was 5.5ft on top and 7 and 11 ft off opposite sides. There was brush off the deep edge in 9 to 11 fow

See the big boulders, and a fish (likely a bass or perch), on top of this shelf. The little blue bumps that appear to be on top of the boulders at the right are more boulders at the edge of the cone. Remember a sonar screen is a 2D image of a 3D cone with as much as 90deg coverage all around (depending on sensitivity setting), with 30% focused coverage in the center of the cone. That fish could be a little one in cone center, or a big one off to one side. If it's off to the side, it's actually shallower than it appears on the screen.

Off the edge of the bouldered shelf in 10fow, where the shelf turns (creating a U-shaped inside turn), a small hump with brush on top appeared on screen. I assume the 18 high hump was the root mass of the shrubbery. I ran a crank over it, ticked the top, and felt a tug a slap -then nothing on a couple more tries. Out came the jigworm and up came a bass, a fat 16.

Josh asked at one point, Do you think there are bass over 5lbs in here? I answered, Yes -looking at the good numbers of bass in the 3lb range we catch here, and their great body condition. They should continue growing if adequate food is consistently there. I suppose that's the problem with most waters a food bottleneck that weeds out larger fish. And 5 lbs is quite a jump from 3, much more, 6, 7, or . If there are only a very few that have made this leap, then we aren't likely to see many. With all this exploring and mapping I'm doing, I'm hoping to home in on the best shots at mature fish. We'll see, better and better, what this water can produce. We could up-size our lures, and accept a lower catch rate, but this mapping still needs to be done to make best use of that.

Shortly after this bit of conversation (during which I missed a bass >) I caught this 17in on a jig-n-craw, on the deep side of the finger bar, and said, This is just the kind of thing we don't want to see a senescent (old) fish on her way out, and only 17inches. Often I see pond's that have lots of small to medium sized bass, but the largest are thin and on their way out'. She might recover, but this is not a good way to go into winter."

Finally, after mapping, Josh and I kicked over to the big shoal. I told him our catch rate would DEFINITELY pick up there. We jig-wormed the east side where I'd been catching them the last few times out, but we drew a blank! :-? While I patiently worked my way around the shoal, Josh said, I'll bet they're by the hump, and made a beeline to the little hump about 100 yards away. In short order his new rod was doubled and I watched a good bass spinning him in circles in his tube. It was a very fat 15. He was into another almost immediately, this one kept him busy for a while longer and then leapt clear. I want a picture of this one! he called out.

Biggest fish of the day a fat 18+ (3½lbs -both our calibrated scales corroborated ). On such a little jig, Josh commented. This IS a different year than last.

Lures

Sometimes match the hatch rears its head, and this was true in this pond this year. This pond had a huge bass hatch and we had to adapt. (See the finessin' parts of my thread Some More Fishing: Crankin' and Finessin' for more details about this). http://www.bassresource.com/bass_fishing_forums/YaBB.pl?num=1248500205

Chuck-n-wind regular-sized crankbaits just didn't interest fish as easily as in the past. This year, if the crank doesn't make contact with cover/substrate no go. Hit something and maybeor often I'd just get a slap. In past years, when bass were keying on perch I believe, the big cranks took fish very well chuck-n-wind through open water.

This year, while little hatch-matchers like tiny 1/16oz paddle-tail grubs on UL worked like a charm, wrestling chunky bass on UL gear gets tedious after each bass has made his 6th circle around your float tube. I opted to give up some bites by going up to 8# on med spinning tackle and 1/8oz jigs.

This doesn't preclude cranks they can be such excellent precise tools. I just need to understand the playing field a bit better before I can get the most out of em -especially this year. I got one on a crank at dusk, a 15" that struck on the initial descent up on the shelf (6fow).

We were also using 3/8oz Arkie/football style jig-n-craw's on 12 to 14lb line for bottom scratching (feeling) the deeper (7 to 11ft) brush and rocks. This little res happens to also have LOTS of crayfish.

RedShad Hula jig head, *** skirt, and Yum Craw Papi trailer.

On the way out, at nearly dark, I saw on my sonar screen what I've seen in fisheries from the great lakes, to large lakes, to ponds: the sudden appearance of fish all over the screen at dusk. These here are probably perch and bass, having come out of hiding, probably brought out by bottom-up food chain activation. In large lakes it's zooplankton that rises up under the protection of low light. This is possible here too, to some degree, but there was also a midge emergence and a strong caddis emergence (Glossosoma Short-Horned Sedge). Little fish were blipping all over the surface. At my take-out spot at shore, the little bass fingerlings were ripping into those caddis likewellbass!

[J Francho]

Another sick post, my friend.  I too saw a similar dusk phenomenon on a large-ish, deep lake somewhere south of Rochester, LOL, just last night.  The difference was that these were initially HUGE bait balls that just appeared.  After about ten minutes, There were some really big humps areound the bait balls, ranging from 30 to 45 feet down, in 65-75 feet of water.  I'm thinking lakers.  Cool to watch, though.

[Mottfia]

Very Nice fish. How large is this pond that you are working with?

Mottfia

[Paul Roberts]

Yeah, John, the big diff with salmonids (as you know) is that they (as well as alewives and shad) don't have the depth change limitations that bass have. My guess is these fish are coming out of cover and not spending their days plastered to the bottom like lakers will.

[Paul Roberts]

Very Nice fish. How large is this pond that you are working with?

Mottfia

You know, I'm not a good judge. I've got to do some GPS measuring to get an idea on this. It's about a 1/3mile at the widest (??).

[J Francho]

Yeah, John, the big diff with salmonids (as you know) is that they (as well as alewives and shad) don't have the depth change limitations that bass have. My guess is these fish are coming out of cover and not spending their days plastered to the bottom like lakers will.

Sorry this is off topic, but you would know...

Are those lakers sitting there on the bottom in 75'+?  I thought they hung around the thermocline, but admittedly, I'm not seeing one on this particular, secret lake where drinking water comes from.

[Paul Roberts]

Yeah, John, the big diff with salmonids (as you know) is that they (as well as alewives and shad) don't have the depth change limitations that bass have. My guess is these fish are coming out of cover and not spending their days plastered to the bottom like lakers will.

Sorry this is off topic, but you would know...

Are those lakers sitting there on the bottom in 75'+? I thought they hung around the thermocline, but admittedly, I'm not seeing one on this particular, secret lake where drinking water comes from.

Nope --nothing fish related is apt to be too off topic.

Could be either. Lakers can and will suspend, and prefer water temps below 55. When I did fisheries work the target for our gill nets was 52F for lakers. One night we had a seiche occur that dipped 55F water onto the top end of one of our nets. That end was full of brown trout in the morning.

That lake your refer to, I believe is only 90ft deep -yes? Unless it's the other one -at what 125? Either way, lakers will certainly suspend but you can expect to find a lot of them down on the substrate too, provided temp is right. Lotsa sculpins down there.

Plus, fish don't stay within their "optimum" temp. They stay in a "preferred" temp that changes with the need for that preference -usually food. I once caught a pickeral 80/90 in that said lake.

To make this relevant to the bass stuff I was seeing on this 12 foot deep pond:

Physoclistus fish (closed bladder) do have a bladder system that is very efficient. Over the course of a day it should be able to adjust a few feet (if they need to). But this may take energy they do not need to burn. And realize, bass do not need to be AT equilibrium to function well. Some finning is all it takes to hold position and maneuver. I always wondered if positive buoyancy actually offers some speed advantage too. But it takes some energy to be positively buoyant; You can't sleep if you are getting sucked up to the surface.

My guess is (with my present incomplete understanding of this gas bladder thing), bass aren't likely to change depth more than 5 feet for any length of time in short duration -like onset of evening (this is a guess at this point). I'm guessing they are holding in/near brush at ~7 to 8 feet and coming out as much as up. I think this because this is the depth I'm catching fish. Shallower, I'm finding the smalls (9 to 12"). Buck Perry was sure onto something when he coined "Depth Control". There's LOTS in that little phrase -stuff he obviously didn't quite understand the "why" of.

BTW: Those bait balls you saw were up feeding on zooplankton (mysis?) and fish fry that were onto the smaller plankton.

[CWB]

Gotta love float tubing. Toe to toe!

I see I'm not the only one who uses Slider Heads.

WTG!

[senile1]

Excellent post, Paul!  I think you should copy the relevant portions and post them in the general forum as it would be useful to those who are learning to read sonar.  

[Paul Roberts]

Yeah, John, the big diff with salmonids (as you know) is that they (as well as alewives and shad) don't have the depth change limitations that bass have. My guess is these fish are coming out of cover and not spending their days plastered to the bottom like lakers will.

Sorry this is off topic, but you would know...

Are those lakers sitting there on the bottom in 75'+? I thought they hung around the thermocline, but admittedly, I'm not seeing one on this particular, secret lake where drinking water comes from.

Nope --nothing fish related is apt to be too off topic.

Could be either. Lakers can and will suspend at water temps below 55. When I did fisheries work the target for our gill nets was 52F for lakers. One night we had seiche occur that dipped 55F water onto the top end of one of our nets. That end was full of brown trout in the morning.

That lake your refer to, I believe is only 90ft deep -yes? Unless it's the other one -at what 125? Either way, lakers will certainly suspend but you can expect to find a lot of them down on the substrate too, provided temp is right. Lotsa sculpins down there.

Plus, fish don't stay within their "optimum" temp. They stay in a "preferred" temp that changes with the need for that preference -usually food. I once caught a pickeral 80/90 in that said lake.

To make this relevant to the bass stuff I was seeing on this 12 foot deep pond:

Physoclistus fish (closed bladder) do have a bladder system that is very efficient. Over the course of a day it should be able to adjust a few feet (if they need to). But this may take energy they do not need to burn. And realize, bass do not need to be AT equilibrium to function well. Some finning is all it takes to hold position and maneuver. I always wondered if positive buoyancy actually offers some speed advantage too. But it takes some energy to be positively buoyant; You can't sleep if you are getting sucked up to the surface.

My guess is (with my present incomplete understanding of this gas bladder thing), bass aren't likely to change depth more than 5 feet for any length of time in short duration -like onset of evening (this is a guess at this point). I'm guessing they are holding in/near brush at ~7 to 8 feet and coming out as much as up. I think this because this is the depth I'm catching fish. Shallower, I'm finding the smalls (9 to 12"). Buck Perry was sure onto something when he coined "Depth Control". There's LOTS in that little phrase.

BTW: Those bait balls you saw were up feeding on zooplankton (mysis?) and fish fry that were onto the smaller plankton.

Ahh...it's coming back to me now. The FLs strain lakers are somewhat unique in that they are known to live suspended, more commonly than other strains. This was an issue with Lake Ontario's laker fishery, in which lamprey's were devastating the native and stocked (I believe inland Canadian) strains. This was bc they were bottom oriented and vulnerable to bottom oriented lamprey. The stocking of FL strain lakers was part of the success story behind laker re-introduction into Lake Ontario. My advisor then was instrumental in this work. I remember being on a trawler with him and another researcher and the trawl (this is a huge rig drawn by a 65ft boat) bringing up a huge dead laker with a "shotgun" hole in it's side. That thing stunk to high heaven and Chuck and the other guy, in rubber suits and masks, held it for a trophy photo shoot -proof of the lamprey devastation. The looks of pride on their faces was priceless -you had to be part of that project to fully appreciate it  ;D. (Trawl samples brought up more lamprey killed (and OMG rotten!) lakers than would be predicted w/ normal mortality.)

But FL lakers do use the bottom: Where 52F water hits the bottom (esp with good substrate) is a best bet.

[Paul Roberts]

Excellent post, Paul! I think you should copy the relevant portions and post them in the general forum as it would be useful to those who are learning to read sonar.

I might put something together sometime. There are some really great resources out there already. In the recent thread called something like, "Sonar ... Oh My!! I added a few good addresses. There's another too --guess I'll add 'em when I get around to doing my own thread.

CWB wrote:

Gotta love float tubing. Toe to toe!

Absolutely! While it's no bass boat, it sure gets you intimate with your water, and fish . Having a bass leap eye level in front of you is pretty neat. Last year I had a good 20inch smallie do it -then I lost her -hook just popped free below me -ooooooohh that one... . I did catch an 18 and a 19 that day though.

[Mrs. Matstone]

Awesome report!  I love posts like this. Very informative. ;D Nice fish too, Thanks for sharing.  ;D

[Paul Roberts]

Awesome report! I love posts like this. Very informative. ;D Nice fish too, Thanks for sharing. ;D

Thank you, Mrs. Matstone. Never sure how many others actually want all the details. All those details are what floats my boat. But you know, when I get home, I feel like I was away for a long time. Lots of events make for lots of livin'. I guess that's why they say fishing doesn't take time away from your alotted time on the planet.

I always thought if you fish hard enough, you might actually gain time! But, my beard just keeps getting grayer.

[Clark Stewart]

Excellent post, Paul! I think you should copy the relevant portions and post them in the general forum as it would be useful to those who are learning to read sonar.

Exactly! I'm learning it right now. I'd love love love to see a post where somebody (ahem Paul) has taken those images and labeled what we're looking at.

[JimVT]

Nice post. A bit off topic but I recently picked up a tube and thought about putting sonar on it, but it seems like there could be some issues with trying to get a decent setup in a tube. Could you post some pictures of your setup (mounts, battery, etc.) that would be great. You setup looks pretty solid so I figure if you've already worked out the kinks why not learn from any previous mistakes. Or if you know of some good websites with details that would work.  Thanks.

[J Francho]

Paul, thanks for the detailed responses to my off topic posts, and nice dovetail into Mr. Perry's writings

[looking4structure]

Nice fish.I've never fished from a tube but it looks like alot of fun.I didn't know you could put sonar on a tube.SWEET.When you catch a HAWG does it pull you around?

[Paul Roberts]

Nice post. A bit off topic but I recently picked up a tube and thought about putting sonar on it, but it seems like there could be some issues with trying to get a decent setup in a tube. Could you post some pictures of your setup (mounts, battery, etc.) that would be great. You setup looks pretty solid so I figure if you've already worked out the kinks why not learn from any previous mistakes. Or if you know of some good websites with details that would work. Thanks.

Hi Jim. PM'd you. Also, here's a good site, run by a serious angler, Norm, who's not afraid of digging into things deep. The UK reminds me a bit of CA; a culture that will take things to the nth degree. Eccentric they call it in the UK. I think it's called Out There in CA lol. I see it as completely normal. Just a matter of priorities.

http://www.greenhobbymodel.com/floattubeireland/index.html

Paul, thanks for the detailed responses to my off topic posts, and nice dovetail into Mr. Perry's writings

Thanks for the thanks. It's nice get feedback.

As to Perry's Depth Control, he saw it as a way of bringing some preciseness actual control into presentation; something sorely needed if you want to tease out any answers. What he didn't quite understand, it appears, is how it works from the fishes end, day to day; and we're still only just chipping away at that now. So far, he is turning out to be more right than off mark except maybe in terms of overall magnitude of movement. Amazing what critical thinking, perseverance, and some controls can yield.

Nice fish.I've never fished from a tube but it looks like alot of fun.I didn't know you could put sonar on a tube.SWEET.When you catch a HAWG does it pull you around?

looking4, the biggest I've taken from a tube was an oz shy of 5lbs. I've taken a bunch in the 4lb range, and no, none of em have moved me. They can spin me around -fast! -and I'll spin to keep control of one. But they just don't run for distance like some other fish can. They're too busy either trying to dive into cover, or leaping.

[J Francho]

Perry was right a lot of the time because his methods ruled out what was wrong.  I see many anglers, like you, taking this further to figuring why what is right and what is wrong.  I know many will say, there's no wrong if you're catching fish, but I honestly do not believe that.  There is something deeper to the truly successful angler.   Nice work.

[twitchfish]

I too am getting interested in a tube, and would enjoy seeing your set-up also.

Paul, you are a wealth of information, thank you for sharing.

Twitch

[RoLo]

Nice report Mr. Roberts, as usual

Physoclistus fish (closed bladder) do have a bladder system that is very efficient. Over the course of a day it should be able to adjust a few feet (if they need to). But this may take energy they do not need to burn. And realize, bass do not need to be AT equilibrium to function well. Some finning is all it takes to hold position and maneuver. I always wondered if positive buoyancy actually offers some speed advantage too. But it takes some energy to be positively buoyant; You can't sleep if you are getting sucked up to the surface.

My guess is (with my present incomplete understanding of this gas bladder thing), bass aren't likely to change depth more than 5 feet for any length of time in short duration -like onset of evening (this is a guess at this point).

I'm glad that you (a former fisheries technician) posted the above passage.

You can't imagine how many times this came up on the forums, long before you came aboard.

Roger

[Paul Roberts]

Nice report Mr. Roberts, as usual

Physoclistus fish (closed bladder) do have a bladder system that is very efficient. Over the course of a day it should be able to adjust a few feet (if they need to). And realize, bass do not need to be AT equilibrium to function well. Some finning is all it takes to hold position and maneuver. I always wondered if positive buoyancy actually offers some speed advantage too. But this may take energy they do not need to burn; It takes some energy to be positively buoyant. You can't sleep if you are getting sucked up to the surface.

My guess is (with my present incomplete understanding of this gas bladder thing), bass aren't likely to change depth more than 5 feet for any length of time in short duration -like onset of evening (this is a guess at this point).

I'm glad that you (a former fisheries technician) posted the above passage.

You can't imagine how many times this came up on the forums, long before you came aboard.

Roger

It was Ralph Manns that got me (us) thinking about this. It became almost a crusade with him it seemed, (and that was back in the 80s), among other oft-repeated mysticisms and assumptions. But the story isn't over in my mind. Never underestimate a living creature -especially a high level predator. Lots of livin' went into the development of that creature.

[RoLo]

But the story isn't over in my mind. Never underestimate a living creature -especially a high level predator. Lots of livin' went into the development of that creature.

Agreed.

Unless one is comfortable coexisting with falsehoods, it's generally wise to give Darwinism the benefit of the doubt  

Roger