Is it possible for there to be too much forage?

[Krzkev]

I went out this morning on my home lake, and didn't do so hot and havn't been doing too well for a while now.  Just a few short years ago I could go out any day any time of the year and catch between 10-25 fish without a problem.  As of late I have really had a hard time getting them to bite.  I know they are there, they just won't eat what I am offering.  The last few years there has been an influx of shad the population seems to have tripled they are just everywhere, not that this is a bad thing, I think they just eat shad whenever they feel the urge to eat, until they are full, therefor making it tough to get them to take my presentations.  So my Question is;  Is there too much food for these fish, making them very picky when it comes to a crank, spinner, or plastic of some kind?  

[SirSnookalot]

I'm in south Florida and since rainy season has started the fishing is poor on my lakes and canals, prior to that is was good.

[-HAWK-]

I have been thinking the same thing lately. Too many SHAD! One thing that I have found that still works every time "BIG SWIMBAITS"

[Paul Roberts]

According to some (pretty good) research -Yes, it is possible.

However, I've always had a hard time with such a potential 'excuse'. In general, healthy prey (of a size that will grow quality bass) is not easy for bass to capture. According to some research (I've not seen mentioned to me by Ralph Manns), is that bass are rarely stuffed full. They work for their meals.

So, I think that too much forage, and related satiation (bellies full), are just too rare where I've fished (mostly bluegill based fisheries). I don't believe I've seen it or maybe not recognized it. When we aren't catching, you've gotta know your fishery pretty darn well to get a bead on something like that with only a fishing pole between you and what's really going on down there.

I'm really careful not to throw up answers/excuses that might knock down my motivation. Too often, it was something else and I just ended up shooting myself in the foot. Often, some fish can be eked out by an adjustment, rather than an excuse.

I've got a scenario right now that had me thinking it might be this too-much-forage deal. We've had a wet year flooding shoreline cover and the bass hatch and fry survival are phenomenal. I have a pond with clouds of them, and the mature bass had become tough nuts in this normally 'easy' pond. I was beginning to wonder whether there was too much easy forage.

But, I saw this once before about 15 years ago in a private pond that had a huge bass hatch. The mature bass would hit a 3" streamer (on fly-tackle) much better than they would larger lures thrown on conventional tackle.

So this year I tried something similar using tiny 1-1/2" shad-style grubs (like you'd use for crappie) on UL spinning tackle and began popping decent LMs at a satisfying pace. This isn't satiation, but apparently a "search image" deal as close to match the hatch as I've found in bass fishing.

So, have I seen too much forage? Not yet, as far as I could tell.

But, it's apparently a real possibility. The research I mentioned was with walleye, and the culprit was gizzard shad.

I've read and conversed with anglers talking about winter shad die-offs, and the best fishing tends to be when die-off numbers are limited and not catastrophic the anglers thinking that big die-offs can be too much of a good thing.

Some stuff to think about.

[SammyLee]

Well, I sure don't need another excuse for not catching them, I'm just not yet very good!  But, about 4 weeks ago, I decided to do a little night fishing at the local lake.  When I got to my favorite spot, I noticed shad were EVERY WHERE.  I thought "Hot Dog! the bass will be here and active.  Nope.  Not a even a nibble.  I really think they were just full.

I thought the solution would be to go to a reaction lure like a spinner bait or a buzz bait but that didn't work out either, as least on that night.

[grimlin]

Funny this came up....A few lakes here are loaded with shad the previous 2 year and i almost didn't catching anything worth while.This year i never saw the shads or baitfish and now I'm having some pretty great outings this year. Seems to be continuing still.

I'm not saying this is why,but it's something I've taken into consideration.

This is why i never got it when people say they can throw in over a school of shad and get bit every time.It never happens that way for me.Fishing is actually harder when there is plenty of baitfish or food.

I'm still learning though,perhaps I'll get it right one day.Until then I'll keep trying and learning.

[tutle]

The highland reservoirs of southern Appalachia are going through some changes in forage. Blue back herring have invaded in a big way. Threadfin shad were the major forage just a few years ago and are still here ,but the recently introduced blue backs are multiplying exponentially in massive schools that can be seen near the surface after the spring turnover. I "think" the feeding habits of the fish are changing to match the habits of the blue-backs . Also, the number of whitebass in these lakes has been drastically affected . At Hiwassee , for example, up until a few years ago whites were abundant and big schools churned the surface chasing shad all summer.Now they are gone.  The first reports supposedly from the biologists was that the blue-backs contained an oil that prevented the eggs of whitebass and walleye from reaching maturity.Later rumors of reports stated that the eggs of the whitebass were extremely appealing to the blue-backs as food.Perhaps it is a combination of the two factors.  At any rate ,The whitebass are practically gone from this 7000 acre lake were they were plentiful until recently . Also ,the walleye average size caught has increased with a noticeable lack of smaller fish being harvested.Who knows what other changes will occur over time? Lakes are organic systems constantly evolving and changing. Equilibrium may be a myth we hope for that can definitely be punctuated by the invasion or implantation of exotics.

[Paul Roberts]

The highland reservoirs of southern Appalachia are going through some changes in forage. Blue back herring have invaded in a big way. Threadfin shad were the major forage just a few years ago and are still here ,but the recently introduced blue backs are multiplying exponentially in massive schools that can be seen near the surface after the spring turnover. I "think" the feeding habits of the fish are changing to match the habits of the blue-backs . Also, the number of whitebass in these lakes has been drastically affected . At Hiwassee , for example, up until a few years ago whites were abundant and big schools churned the surface chasing shad all summer.Now they are gone. The first reports supposedly from the biologists was that the blue-backs contained an oil that prevented the eggs of whitebass and walleye from reaching maturity.Later rumors of reports stated that the eggs of the whitebass were extremely appealing to the blue-backs as food.Perhaps it is a combination of the two factors. At any rate ,The whitebass are practically gone from this 7000 acre lake were they were plentiful until recently . Also ,the walleye average size caught has increased with a noticeable lack of smaller fish being harvested.Who knows what other changes will occur over time? Lakes are organic systems constantly evolving and changing. Equilibrium may be a myth we hope for that can definitely be punctuated by the invasion or implantation of exotics.

Wow. Very interesting.

That "equilibrium" (say enough to perpetuate popns of big fish) was less a myth when land/water systems were intact, and punctuation events rarer. We've sure changed things, and it seems we now have the job of maintenance, often defensively.

[DEbassman17]

It is very possible that there could be too much forage. There is this new park that has a 8 acre pond with crappie,bass,perch, and sunfish in it, I went up there for the first time and saw a sign on the way down "no live bait", I just shrugged my shoulders not thinking it would be a problem. I got down to the water's edge and there were hundreds of thousands of shiners (1-2 inches) schooling up by this pier. After 30 minutes of not even getting a nibble on every lure in my bag, i decided to break the rules  . I got my little net, dipped it in there once and probly had about 75-100 shiners in one scoop. I got my ultra-lite out (I figured the fish would be small, and I was right), put a size 4 aberdeen hook with a little float, stuck a shiner on it, put it under the dock and wammo had a bass (10 incher  :-X) within 10 seconds. I got 40 more bass (all 12 inches and under), 15 huge bluegill, 2 14" crappies, and 4 big perch all in only about 2 hours of fishing. This proves that there can be too much forage to catch them on artificials. You may have to go to live bait to have some success.  

-Jason

[SoFl-native]

I dont buy this "already full" excuse.

Reaction strikes arent hunger based anyway.......and how many times have you guys caught bass with forage in their mouths or throats? That happens all the time.

The fish are there and they are eating........somewhere.

Summer can be a tougher season down here.......but that is what makes it a challenge.

[roadwarrior]

This is where a strong argument for NOT matching the

hatch comes into play. In the fall, coves along the Tennessee

River are so jam packed with threadfin shad, there doesn't seem

like there would be enough room for water! "Something different"

is always the answer.

8-)

[-HAWK-]

This is where a strong argument for NOT matching the

hatch comes into play. In the fall, coves along the Tennessee

River are so jam packed with threadfin shad, there doesn't seem

like there would be enough room for water! "Something different"

is always the answer.

8-)

The lake that the original poster is talking about matching the Hatch is actually what works best. The problem is the water temps hit 89-90 degrees on average during the summer. Locating the fish is the Key. The lake is loaded with shad. But once you find them match the hatch and you can catch them.

Krzkev: Take my advice, get your self a big shad swimbait, find the fish and hold on.

[Paul Roberts]

This is where a strong argument for NOT matching the

hatch comes into play. In the fall, coves along the Tennessee

River are so jam packed with threadfin shad, there doesn't seem

like there would be enough room for water! "Something different"

is always the answer.

8-)

This can be a good tact. Matching the hatch can be difficult, esp with large (bass sized) lures and in still water. Add high visibility conditions (sun, clear water, and a flat calm surface) and it's close to impossible.

Sometimes in fishing there is more fishing than catching.

Sounds like HAWK is onto something -go for it. Keep at it and you'll find something too, and return the favor to HAWK .

[skeetermike]

I know fishing pressure is a whole lot greater where I'm from.  I also know that by the large pods of bait I'm seeing that has to be a factor too.  A big fish would only have to open his mouth and swim into a ball of bait like that 2 or 3 times a day to fill up.  No wonder the numbers of fish caught are less now days.  I see bait in the summer time but not too much in the winter/fall though.  I'm wondering if the hatch is significantly less during that time of yr. and maybe that is why the fish seem to bite better.  I know they are down deeper but you would expect to see them surface every now and then.  

[Paul Roberts]

Skeetermike wrote:

I see bait in the summer time but not too much in the winter/fall though.  I'm wondering if the hatch is significantly less during that time of yr. and maybe that is why the fish seem to bite better.

That's the answer provided by IF (likely through Ralph Manns) -that baitfish popns, hatched in spring and summer, have become cropped down by winter. That is likely some part of the answer in some waters.

[Matt Fly]

Yes.    

[skeetermike]

Even though I said winter may offer less baitfish.  I'm not sure I believe that theory.  I'm sure the larger fish make a dent in them all throughout the summer/warm months.  However, you can look on your graph when out on the water and see those large wades of bait still down there.  I know guys round here that spoon fish for the whites every winter...not so much for black bass though.  They are finding the baitfish with their graph and dropping into them.  Every fall, like I seen this morning the small bass go to schooling really heavy on those baitfish and it's tough to catch them because you never know where the bait will surface next, bringing hungery bass with them.  A well placed chug-bug into the thrashing mix is almost always a hook-up though.  Too much forage= less fish caught, but healthy fish.  So I'm ok with that.  

[farmpond1]

I dont buy this "already full" excuse.

Reaction strikes arent hunger based anyway.......and how many times have you guys caught bass with forage in their mouths or throats? That happens all the time.

The fish are there and they are eating........somewhere.

Summer can be a tougher season down here.......but that is what makes it a challenge.

I can't argue with you that reaction strikes happen all the time.  I caught a smallmouth last year that had a sucker over half it's size still sticking out of his mouth. But if you eliminate hunger strikes from the equation, that does reduce the overall number of bites by a goodly amount.  JMHO.