Solutions To Fish Mortality In Tournaments

[Lane]

GobbleDog, I have consulted with other biologists and Doug Hannon

on this matter, and they DISAGREE.  Generally, the damage is

collateral. Not only was a significant population of LARGE BROODSTOCK bass removed over the period of four days. (Doug estimated approximately 4,000 acres), but it gives ALL anglers a

black eye in the non-angling public's view which is NOT GOOD for

the sportfishing industry. Especially when the numbers of freshwater

anglers has been steadily declining.

Falcon is a trophy bass fishery that's success is due TOTALLY to nature

and not from the efforts of Texas Parks and Wildlife. If it is going to continue to produce trophy class fish it MUST BE MANAGED with the

aid of TPW. Lake Fork is a world renowned trophy bass fishery, the

slot has helped the fishery quickly rebound during tough years of

poor recruitment and the LMBV. Many of the businesses and locals

living down in Zapata want the lake managed by TPW. Many including

myself want the daily bag limit to be reduced from five fish to three

fish for ALL USER GROUPS. We know that the slot has IMPROVED the

fishery on Lake Fork. The slot was also instrumental in allowing decimated red drum populations to rebound after gill netting was made

illegal. NOW is the time for action, not next year. Amistad is a prime

example of what can happen to a fishery in a short period of time.

Most angling user groups have reported less catchable and or quality

fish since the first Elite Series was televised. Showcasing a quality

fishery is a good thing AS LONG AS MANAGEMENT IS IN PUT INTO

PLACE within a short period of time. Reducing daily bag limits or

implementing slots will prevent a quality fishery from becoming a victim of it's success. That has been proven time and time again.

[WRB]

The following suggested instructions should be followed whenever a bass tournament is scheduled where big bass are known to be caught during the event.

http://www.sure-life.com/pdf/bass_champs_falcon_tips.pdf

WRB

[Matt Fly]

Boat manufacturer's need to go back to the 3rd livewell on the front deck and or increase the capacity of the other two.

Set a limit of 3 bass for the co angler when needed.      

Pro has two wells when needed, and we don't eliminate the co boater.  

Again, numbers like this have NEVER been seen before, just look at the number of limits brought in compared to all other tournaments.    Thats alot of fish coming across the scales.

I like the Redfish Cup weigh-in system also.   Fished weighed in water, don't know if that would work for 5 fish, but worth looking at.

   Equipment including holding tanks and all needs to be upgraded, the rest will fall into place through better education on being prepared.

 

[WRB]

The misconception in regards to delayed motality and survivabilty was well stated by the club tournament TD. This was also a common statement in regards to the Falcon tournament when B.A.S.S. stated 158 big bass died. Dead bass defore they are released isn't delayed mortality, those bass died during the event, not later after they were released.

Consider that during the average summer tournament 28%* of the bass thought to be healthy died of delayed mortality. The bass looked good and swam away, then died. Most of these bass don't float on the surface, some do and are usaully eaten by birds or turtles before they can be detected by other fisherman.

Most large reseviors can handle the harvest rates of both weekend fisherman catching bass for the table and tournament bass fisherman lost through delayed mortality. However during the pre spawn, spawn and post spawn months when big bass are grouped together and catchable, overharvesting or high motality rates can be very detrimantal to the bass population.

WRB

*study by Gene Gilliland, biologist OK.

[Lane]

THREE fish limit is the only RESPONSIBLE thing to do, and it is supported by EVERYONE that we have talked to that depends upon

Falcon Lake for their livelihood.  Allowing the pros to retain five fish

with FULL use of both livewells is an option that should be considered.

They can have observers, just like the PAA events. NO CO-ANGLER!

We will FIGHT to make sure that Falcon Lake remains a QUALITY FISHERY!!!!  

Matt, I have to ask you this question. Have you ever been down to Falcon???  

[Upnorth]

FLW has and does weigh 5 bass limits in clear tanks of water at select events.  Not only is it better for the fish, the fans seem to like it too.

[FD.]

WRB wrote "Consider that during the average summer tournament 28%* of the bass thought to be healthy died of delayed mortality. The bass looked good and swam away, then died. Most of these bass don't float on the surface, some do and are usaully eaten by birds or turtles before they can be detected by other fisherman."

If they don't float  and were not seen by other fisherman, then how accurate is the "28%" number?  Just a question.

Reduce tournament limits....That can be done by any repsonsible tournament promoter.

Reduce the length of the tournament day, or split it into 2 weigh ins, morning and afternoon.  Again the promoter can do this now.

Increase the penalty for dead fish.  This will solve most of the dead fish by focusing the angler's attention on live fish and not more fish.

[WRB]

WRB wrote "Consider that during the average summer tournament 28%* of the bass thought to be healthy died of delayed mortality. The bass looked good and swam away, then died. Most of these bass don't float on the surface, some do and are usaully eaten by birds or turtles before they can be detected by other fisherman."

If they don't float and were not seen by other fisherman, then how accurate is the "28%" number? Just a question.

Reduce tournament limits....That can be done by any repsonsible tournament promoter.

Reduce the length of the tournament day, or split it into 2 weigh ins, morning and afternoon. Again the promoter can do this now.

Increase the penalty for dead fish. This will solve most of the dead fish by focusing the angler's attention on live fish and not more fish.

* Gene Gilliland article;

http://www.State.tn.us/twra/fish/Reservoir/blackbass/livebass2.pdf

WRB

[reelnmn]

I'm still in favor of the 5 bag limits.

One recommendation I have is to have completely separate weigh-ins for boaters/coanglers the first two days.  The non-boaters don't get any press time to promote sponsors or tell how there day went, and cutting them out of the on-stage portion would reduce the weigh-in time by half.  On the final day for co-anglers, they would weigh-in on the big stage.

I think what we all lack is education.  We should all have an associate's degree in fish care regardless if we are tournament fishermen or the weekend angler.  IMO, fish care is dependent on he said, she said.  We deserve and should demand scientific answers.

[Matt Fly]

Lane, were are all these pictures that haven't hit the internet of dead fish after the tourney.   ??????  

Lane have you seen the City Councilmen out on the Lakes actually fishing?   Yet you quoted them numerous times.  Where did they get their info?    From the same blog writers?   Locals who in every other instance would share those pictures.  None surfaced  We have too many guys down there for Bass Champs and they haven't noticed the delayed floaters or reported them on the TFF.  

Tackle owner Blog, is just what it is.   No disrespect to them either, but most of their info comes from fishermen as well.

And we know how numbers can get over inflated.         You weren't there, and you and I both have heard accounts from observers and cameramen in the boats.   I'm not in the minority when it comes to Texans as you saw on how you got attacked on the TFF for this same reasoning.

    Cameramen said pros dropped their fish in the wells and never looked back.  You say its all co boaters.   Pros are Pros.  LOL   we see drama and boat handling issues every event, and the pro's are pros, surprised you don't blame the co0boater for Swindle being on pad through the crowds.  LOL

        We can go on.     Again, this is to help aide in the solution.    I see fault from everyone.

AGain, its a sad event when you loose one fish in my book.

Its of my Ill opinion that ya'll can name drop all you want and what you have is a bunch of blog with no hard numbers.

Where ya'll there?  Or relying on others stories.   CAuse the stories on the other forum were met with nasty comments.

All these floaters that never floated due to turtles and birds, since they didn't float, how do you know the numbers?  

This is the dog chasing his tail.      

I have stated numerous times, I appreciate your business and the product that you provide for us.  

  I don't want to beat the horse to death!!!!   United we stand, divided we fall!!!    

           

[Lane]

Matt, Out of respect you have not answered my question, so I will repeat it. Have you ever been down to Falcon???

You are right I was not there, but we have assisted various tournaments down at Falcon, and we KNOW the fishery!

Sure there is plenty of blame to go around, but when it is all

said and done it is the RESONSIBILBITY of the tournament

organizations to make sure that anglers are educated and

tournaments are conducted with respect for the fishery FIRST!

BTW, John from Falcon Lake Tackle WAS THERE as well as MANY

other anglers from the Zapata area. Of course a picture is worth

a thousand words. Would you like to see the pictures Matt?

[Matt Fly]

I'm tired of beating the same dead horse to death.

You have blog comments for support, the birds and turtles cleaned the mess up convienently. Where is the 3000-5000lbs of dead fish?

All these fish that needed to be fizzed, just sank all at once after they no longer could swim down on there own. How convienent and how fishy. And the birds just swallowed up all those giant bass.

Human nature and TFFers that were down there with cameras said they didn't see the same things as you report, and your source is blog at best, I mean you didn't witness it either. And your tackle store owner didn't get on the water either, he said reported. Thats blog at its best.

PS, Dad coached in south Texas in the 60's, I began bassing on Amistad in 6o's, so yes, its been awhile, but I have been to Falcon when I was younger.

Why has OH Ivey's fishing suffered? She was kicking out great numbers, was supposed to be the next Fork of west Texas.

Can't blame BASS for that downfall, must be the meathunters then!!!

She was better at that time than Falcon, Amistad, and Choke Canyon.

     People blame BASS and the pressure its received since they came to Amistad.      Funny, no one talks about the dropping water level on Amistad.       When these lakes that were on average 60 ft low, those sacks didn't show up consistently. You were lucky to have 20 sacks over 20 lbs with a 200 boat field. Facts are in the tournament results, not some blog writers column.

     And don't most of the experts say, "lakes that are down make for easier fishing due to skinny water?" Apparently not! Results speak for themselves. Rareity to see 30 lb sacks until the rains, and the gill netters have been on Amistad and Falcon since it opened.

And then the experts say what a gill net will catch and won't. The same Mexican fishermen who use coke bottles and cans for fishing tackle. So imagine what an old makeshift gill net would look like, but never mind, the expert on here said bass don't get caught enough to make a difference. How many Mexicans on the river have you encountered?  I grew up on the Rio Grande.

Now that levels have dropped since 2004, its the meat hunters fault on Amistad. Can't totally blame BASS on this one cause their was no fish kill. So for that decline, its meat hunters fault!

      Someone is always pointing a finger. TPWD takes into account for harvesting, yet, the blog is saying due to BASS, meat hunter are making the trip to Amistad in persuit of bass fillets.

Most real meat hunters fish for crappie and cats, and don't need to travel that far to seek meat, specially a bass fillet.

Sorry, when a fish can't dive due to its bladder, they just don't sink or disappear overnight. Specially when they can't sink due to gas in their bladders.

I don't dispute making changes. I don't have to agree with all that is said either.

If this were a trial, all you have is hearsay! And last time I checked, you aren't guilty off of hearsay and blog!

Argue that all you want. Not one shread of evidence is shown, just blog writers hearsay.

     

     

[Matt Fly]

By the way, the BASS Federation tournament on Falcon has decided to go with 3 fish limit.

Which don't hurt my feelings.    

Matt

[flechero]

Would you like to see the pictures Matt?

I would, if you don't mind posting them.

Thanks

[Lane]

Flechero,

Please send me a PM next week, after I return from Falcon. I DO NOT

want to POST them all over the internet for obvious reasons, even though I have been asked to.  I myself have not seen them yet, I will see them tomorrow.

[FD.]

I would like to see these pictures as well.

FD

[FD.]

WRB,

I still could not find the 28% number.  The studies were conducted between 10 and 15 years ago.  I would say that "responsible" tournament fisherman are much better educated on this matter and these conclusions  are no longer accurate, if they ever were.

That being said, the second and third pages were full of useful information, most of which I have seen in practice at the tournaments out of Camp Mack that I fish.  Maybe we just do a better job of fish management in Florida because our highly pressure lakes require us to.

[Guest muddy]

WRB,

I still could not find the 28% number. The studies were conducted between 10 and 15 years ago. I would say that "responsible" tournament fisherman are much better educated on this matter and these conclusions are no longer accurate, if they ever were.

That being said, the second and third pages were full of useful information, most of which I have seen in practice at the tournaments out of Camp Mack that I fish. Maybe we just do a better job of fish management in Florida because our highly pressure lakes require us to.

I think thats his deduction, the article is where the idea came from. There is an entry for a 1999 Delayed mortality at Fork of 38 %, no proff just numbers

 I am with Matt, a lot of theories and conjecture without any concrete proff or pics  I don't care to fish for $ but a lot of my friends do, and this is a hot topic. I was upset watching the last 2 classic weigh ins and the fireworks and weigh in away from the body of water. It is too bad that ESPN didn't buy Ray Scotts sensibilities along with BASS itself!

[Matt Fly]

   I'm gonna put this in forum terms.     As some have stated, it was the co boaters who killed most of their catch.

Pros are Pros!!!

Senko 77, Ryan Lamb is a BFL Co boater, and I have only seen big fish picutres, but I have alot of faith in his abiltiy.     I'm not gonna point or assume the guys like Ryan are at fault.

Some solutions are to get rid of the co-boater.      

Is that really a solution?    You can say that it was BASS problem, not FLW, but facts show both trails mirror each other.   And it could effect both trails, and hopefully, FLW will learn some from this as well, and maybe they are ahead of BASS and BASS should take some notes from them.

      One thing that is constant.    The numbers are sheer guesses, because none of them are close to each other.    Bloggers range from 15% to 66%    So what will be the final guess with all the birds and turtles cleaning the mess up, and all the fish that "NEVER FLOATED" up to be counted.

Hookem      

   

[Dogooder]

If you want a good guide to fish care, look up the "Keeping Bass Alive" handbook from BASS.  It was written by two of the most respected fisheries biologists in the US who do a lot of work with largemouth bass mortality in tournaments.

Also, there are numerous recent articles out there that give numbers on delayed or post-release mortality.  As a fisheries scientist, I recently did some research on the very topic, and it is very surprising and alarming how high delayed mortality can be.  Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

[flechero]

Do any of you remember the Lake Fork "Under" Tournaments they had, it was many years ago?  Where you only weighed fish under the slot and the catch was kept as a harvest tool.  If memory serves me correctly, the fish were donated to a local Church or charity to be cleaned and distributed to needy families.  

I'd love to see the pro tournament's "keeper" redefined to something in the preferred harvest range (as defined by biologists) and then have the daily catch, filleted and given to a local homes, shelters, food pantry, etc.  That helps rid a lake of the fish it needs to get rid of for balance and also serves the local communities in which the tournaments are held.  Perhaps a mix of paper tournaments and meat tournaments, depending on the lake and local charitable needs.??

If the delayed mortality numbers are correct, and I'm a little skeptical of some of them, but for the sake of discussion if they are correct, I think the whole tournament concept needs to be modified/changed.  Also if the delayed mortality numbers are really so high, doesn't that suggest the C & R is only effective if the release is done immediately?  Which would also be good reason to change formats.

just thinking out loud...