What makes you PRO?

[Matt Fly]

What governing body resides over the NFL?  NBA? other pro organizations?

I believe the owners makes up the governing body.   They select a commish. to run their organization by the rules they vote on, not the public.  

I would think the owners of BASS and FLW would also be the governing body you ask about.    I think the CEO of both pretty much runs it the best way they see fit.

I collect a few checks every year off of local trails, but that doesn't even come close to me thinking I'm a PRO.

What are the two holy grails of BASS?  The Classic and AOY, when you can compete for those titles, I'd say you are a touring pro, nothing against FLW, just used the BASS for example.

The Opens are just stepping stones to the Holy Grail, the prize money and titles don't compare to what is up for grabs on the Pro Level.

Again, entry fees are not even close to what a pro pays to fish, so I base it on entry fees.

How many local tours have entries of $1000 or more to fish?       In Tx, we have some pretty top notch trails every weekend with boats and prize money up for grabs, but not one comes close to FLW or BASS entry fees.

Matt.

[NJfishinGuy]

However, in the real world he is still a Doctor, Lawyer, Welder or whatever.

I think that sums it up, he still has to go in every Monday morning and put his coat on the coat rack next to the desk and do his real job.

i dont think thats right, people can have 2 careers they dont have to be summed up by one. lets say that guy is a ceo of a company but wins the classic he might still make more being a ceo of a huge company but if you win the classic i dont care whos paying more your a pro.

[earthworm77]

Like I said earlier, it comes down to what that guy puts on his W-2....that is what he ultimately classifies himself as.

[BillyBob]

 I like George's statement that " Pro is a designated acheivement, not one of income".

 We have all seen guys, on the local level, on their home lake that you couldn't beat with a baseball bat ! They spend every spare minute on it, and know it better than they know their wife.  Take him to a strange lake, and he skunks! But on that one lake, Kevin Van Dam couldn't beat him, and the level of his acheivement,  is Pro-ish to say the least.

 Earthworm, nowhere on a W-2 does it state your occupation, only your name, address, and your employers. Nor does it give your occupation on the 1099 misc. from BASS L.L.C., you get at the end of the year, if you cash in a tour event,or several events. Under your guideline, a person  never having seen a bass could on his/her schedule 1040 form after he signed it and dated it, write PRO Bass Fisher on the occupation line,and poof make it so. You think the IRS cares ?

[Hale]

Not to get off subject here:

Earthworm, nowhere on a W-2 does it state your occupation, only your name, address,

Your occupation is listed on your 1040 forms. You personally list your occupation each year and it does make a difference to the IRS. Especially when they are comparing your income to write-offs, etc.

bshaner:

I have the answer to your question in my head....Im just getting down in words exactly how I want....Ill get back on that one.

[Catt]

A lot of tournament trails rules state

Pros: A Pro is defined as any angler that has entered more than one bass tournament that required an entry fee greater than $1500

Under this rule I've recently fished against Villis "Bo" Dowden Sr, Harold Allen, & George Gene Jr

Not Pros?   :

[Low_Budget_Hooker]

I thought you were a pro if you had a shirt with a bunch of patches, get 20 % off your rods and had a post in "resumes" about sposurships,no?

Is it about how many girls want to pet your boat?

How about if I have a nitro sticker on my truck?

Maaaan,...I'm NEVER gonna get outta this darn brown truck. ;D

On a real note, great topic.

CATT- I feel your pain, when I was competing in moguls "A" , I was at an amatuer competition in VT called the Bear Mtn Mogul challenge", a yearly event and big spring party.  I had a good chance to take it the year before I made pro and the entry form stated, NO U.S. PRO'S

1st and 3rd were won by Canadian Development team members ( pool for olympic team)

[BASS fisherman]

I thought you were a pro if you had a shirt with a bunch of patches, get 20 % off your rods and had a post in "resumes" about sposurships,no?

Come on LBH, everyone knows it is spelled sponsership.

[senile1]

So here's a wrinkle for all you guys who say that a lawyer who makes most of his income from that pursuit, is not a Pro fisherman if he makes $80,000 a year from it. And a lot of you are hung up on the W2s.

When Michael Jordan was a pro basketball player there were years when he made more money in endorsing products (i.e. doing commercials.) Going by the reasoning above, he wouldn't be a pro basketball player since most of his income came from commercials.

It's all semantics. Michael Jordan was both a pro basketball player and a company spokesperson. The lawyer is both a lawyer and a pro fisherman.

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose By any other word would smell as sweet." (Shakespeare)

[Hale]

So here's a wrinkle for all you guys who say that a lawyer who makes most of his income from that pursuit, is not a Pro fisherman if he makes $80,000 a year from it.  And a lot of you are hung up on the W2s.  

When Michael Jordan was a pro basketball player there were years when he made more money in endorsing products (i.e. doing commercials.)  Going by the reasoning above, he wouldn't be a pro basketball player since most of his income came from commercials.

Thats comparing apple and oranges. Take Joe Thomas for example, we all know he is a pro - no argument there, but Im sure he is making a lot more money with Outdoor Channel (Angler on Tour, Ultimate Match Fishing Host, Sponsorship, etc) than he is on the Elite Series. BUT, those things would not be there for him if werent a professional athlete. Its no different for Jordan, Howie Long, John Madden, etc.

After these posts my opinion is that anyone who can provide a living for his family with a fishing pole is a proffesional. Regardless if he is a guide, tournament fisher, product tester, tv host, etc. Now if he has two, three or four other proffesions it doesnt matter....can he provide for a family with just fishing?

As I started this thread with the comment of my surfing, I can say that I was a pro at it in every aspect but one...I surfed two tours full-time, had salary paying sponsors, etc. But I could not provide a living for myself off the income. After expenses and taxes (sponsors dont pay for everything) I was bringing home maybe 25k at the end of the year. So I did have other 'jobs' going on to make things work out right. So my opinion on the pro thing now contradicts what I have lived through.

[senile1]

I thought about that when I made the post, Hale.  I know that Michael Jordan wouldn't have been able to do commercials if he wasn't a pro basketball player.  To me, and it's just my opinion, it doesn't matter.  If he is doing both, he is both.  It doesn't mattter how he got there.  There are a number of examples of people having two occupations.  Politicians and laywers, politicians and doctors, politicians and crooks  , burger fryers and dishwashers . . . . . . Fred Thompson of Tenessee acted in a number of films while he was a United States Senator, etc, etc, etc.  What you are is what you are.  The path you took to get there doesn't change what your are.  

[Ky_Lake_Dude]

I love 2 fish thats why.

[earthworm77]

I don't work for the IRS but you get the point. 1040-1099 whatever.

Under your guideline, a person  never having seen a bass could on his/her schedule 1040 form after he signed it and dated it, write PRO Bass Fisher on the occupation line,and poof make it so. You think the IRS cares ?

Let's be serious here for a minute.....anyone simply doing this for the hell of it is a fool(wannabee) especially since the gov't see's this. So unless a guy is truly a Pro making a living through his fishing, not fishing a few tournaments here and there, he is not a Pro.

After these posts my opinion is that anyone who can provide a living for his family with a fishing pole is a proffesional. Regardless if he is a guide, tournament fisher, product tester, tv host, etc. Now if he has two, three or four other proffesions it doesnt matter....can he provide for a family with just fishing?

this is a pretty good statement.

[Okeechobee_Cracker]

when ever i think of pro i think of someone who makes there living off of fishing or at least do it most of the time.

thats how I see it too ......

[Matt Fly]

Brooks Rogers is a pro, but he failed to make a living at it this year.     It doesn't mean he isn't a pro because he failed to make a living at it.

Jimmy Houston is also pro, but failed to make any money at it this year.    But he's still an old Pro in my book.

As mentioned before, if you look at some tournament entry forms, a pro is defined by the amount of entry fees he's paid to fish on a trail.

A Pro is defined by the level he has competed at, and that is decided by entry fees solely.  

Here is a sample entry form that is designed for amatuers only.

3.  This tournament is designed primarily for amateurs, therefore, anyone who has fished 4 or more tournaments within the past 12 months of this tournament with an entry fee over $600 or anyone who has provided guide service for pay within the past 90 days of this official tournament lake, will not be eligible to compete in this tournament.

Matt.

[Hale]

Jimmy Houston is also pro, but failed to make any money at it this year.    But he's still an old Pro in my book.

There is a thread about Jimmy Houston. I dont know what Brook's deal is, but to say Jimmy Houston didnt make a living this year on fishing is clearly wrong. He didnt make any money on the Elite Series, but is still doing very well for himslef just on endorsements and his TV show....again solely based on the fact that he is a professional.

[earthworm77]

A Pro is defined by the level he has competed at, and that is decided by entry fees solely.

Essentially you are telling me that if I go an purchase a "Pro" card for about 100.00 and enter a few tournaments on the "Pro" side, I'm a "Pro"

Definition:

A professional is required to possess a large knowledge derived from extensive academic and practical training. Professional skills are important to the well-being of society. Professions are self-regulating, in that they control the training and evaluation processes that admit new persons to the field. Professionals have autonomy in the workplace; they are expected to utilize their independent judgment in carrying out their professional responsibilities. Finally, professions are regulated by ethical standards.

Typically a professional provides a service in exchange for payment in accordance with established protocols for licensing, ethics, procedures, standards of service and training/certification. However, at all times a professional is cognizant that their first and foremost responsibility is to the public welfare.

The term "professional" is commonly used incorrectly. The distinction between professional sports and amateur sports simply refers to how the athlete is funded. Typically, behaving professionally would indicate that the person's actions remain in accordance with specific rules, written or unwritten, pertaining to behavior, dress, speech, etc. By extension, the adjective professional identified somebody recognized for expertise or skill in a craft or activity.

In narrow usage, not all expertise is considered a profession. Although sometimes referred to as professions, such occupations as skilled construction work are more generally thought of as trades or crafts. The completion of an apprenticeship is generally associated with skilled labor or trades such as carpenter, electrician, plumber, and other similar occupations.

In the strictest sense, the professional fields are limited to accounting, architecture, clergy, engineering, intelligence, law, medicine, and officers.

Looking at some of the things in bold you'll notice that WE consider these guys professional while the better part of society likely does not. Looking at it from the sports side of things, consider the 1980 Gold medal Olympic Hockey team. None of these players were paid to play, unlike the competition they faced. They were true amateurs. Should it be considered that a guy who win's a $10.00 lunker pool is a Pro? I think not. Again I'll rest on what he represents himself to the gov't as his true occuaptional identity. Far too many people throw the word Pro around.

I would suffice to say that a Pro is the whole package. Just because Jimmy didn't will big on '06, his living is made by the fact he was a successful Pro angler. He reaps the benefits of that career to this day and likely until his end.

[Matt Fly]

Tournament directors don't care what you put on your taxes!!!

They don't care as to what circuits you fished.    

Circuits are not defined by name on the  entry forms are they?

They are defined by entry fees.

When you pay those $5500.00 entry fees, you are fishing as a pro.   Gonna cost you more than a $100.00 bucks to get that pro status.  

When you play semi pro baseball, its exactly that, semi pro.   You aren't in the bigs until you play on that level.

Brooks is no longer on the Elite tour.    He can't how ever, fish our trails in Tx because of that little blurb on 90% of the entry forms,

as per BassChamps, who gives away 20,000 grand for first place no matter of how many entries, which is more than the BFL and TTT, and I say that because they haven't been close to having full fields in TX, so their payouts are never as advertised.

As per BASSChamps

2. Participation/Eligibility: All Bass Champs Tournaments are open to all anglers except Pros: A Pro is defined as any angler that has entered more than one bass tournament that required an entry fee greater than $1500 during 2006-2007 seasons. Any person entering a Bass Champs Tournament under the age of 18 must also have the signature of their parent or legal guardian in the provided space on the official entry form. All contestants are required to have a valid fishing license.

Again, just another trails definition of a pro, and this one limits it to one tourney fished with 1500 or more as a PRO.

That entry fee is only 260.00 by the way, not bad for 20,000 grand for first place and number of entries doesn't matter.   They will pay out 25 places with 150 or more, and second place is usually around 3500, down to 600 for last.   Thats about 50 grand per tourney and theres 24 events, so BassChamps is one tough circuit.

All tournament directors want each and every guy to show good sportsmanship, but what defines a pro is entry fees.

To what level?   I have no clue,    There are alot of guys who have money that fish alot of trails, and I consider them to be pros, pros because of their results and the way they carry them selves.

Ike is a pro, but his actions say he is a poor pro at times.    I like Ike, he makes it hard to defend him sometimes, and thats another thread.

matt

[senile1]

There may be disagreement about what constitutes a professional in the fishing ranks, but I can tell you all one thing.  I am an expert at what it takes to be an amateur.  

[preach4bass]

When this question was first posted, I responded by saying I thoght it was subjective.  Three pages and 43 posts later I'm convinced that it is subjective! ;D

[earthworm77]

Now we are walking a gray line. What you call a pro circuit and what many might envision as a pro circuit is cloudy. I consider the elite of the BASS and FLW the Pro's as it applies to bass fishing. Any other circuit is a lesser level. It is laughable that someone can be considered something based on what they have in their wallet. Sure, a tournament organization can consider its participants "pro's" however, who is recognizing and agreeing with that. As someone said what governing body determines this? If that tournament organisation is not FLW or BASS, does it hold any weight? I doubt it.

A Pro Curcuit tourney director in those elite groups doesn't worry about entry fees. Its all about advertising which is not his responsibility therefore he wants the big name "pros" fishing, not Joe Lunchbox who doesn't draw a crowd.

For a semi pro guy to be playing baseball, he must have some decent skill. For a guy to fish the pro circuit, he must have a decent wallet and doesn't really need any skill to get in. There is a world of difference there. One guy belongs, one guy buys his way in. I'll say it one last time. A pro angler, whether it be a tournament pro, guide etc makes his living off being dedicated to that area of specialization to earn his income.

What happens when a ball player gets sent to the minors for conditioning, is he any less of a pro because the level that he competes against may be less competitive? He doesn't lose his pro status.

Let me ask you a question and I'm not in this discussion to "P" anyone off but how about this. If I had the money to fish the FLW or the Elite series could I? I think not. I believe I would have to earn my way in by qualifying through divisional or regional competition with affiliated programs.........

.......and that is the D-A-M-N difference! You can't buy your way in to a legitimate Pro Curcuit. You cannot buy the title of Pro.

[Hale]

I 100% agree with that! Buying your way into does not validate you as a pro!

Just this week I was looking at entering the Bassmaster Opens for the 2008 season. I am/was considering doing it as a boater. If I entered this as a boater the tournament would consider me a pro. And im not even close to such a thing. So I could buy my way into this. Just by deciding to pay 1000+ entry fee and bringing my own boat instead of riding shotgun with someone else.

It would be nice to see an actual pro get on here and see what his input is on the whole thing!

[earthworm77]

Hale you and I see eye to eye on this. We agree that one must possess a certain level of talent or skill to go along with the PRO moniker. There are many truly good anglers, there are only few elite enough to be classified as the true big boys. Most of us have a day or two here and there to make us think we are good enough but then there are the days we where get "B" slapped back to reality. ;D

[George Welcome]

It would be tough to find a pro to step up and speak here:  it doesn't seem as if anyone can agree on what would qualify one to be a pro.

[earthworm77]

George, I'd honestly say you are as close as one could come to being a "Pro". In a different sense of the word, I'd guess you make most if not all of your income through guiding. I have more respect for that because you are out there everyday than a guy who fish' the tour. You have to make it happen everyday.