who's still flying?

[Nine Miler]

This makes it five pages and we can't make it past page one about the bad cop, or the pedophile book on Amazon.com?  Just sayin.  Sheesh.

I had to say that.  As for the rest of this discussion, I'm staying out.

[Glenn]

The discussion is still civil, so we'll let it run for now.  The other two topics blew up in a hurry.  In addition, one topic was too R-rated for our young readers, and the other was turning into a cop-bashing thread, which we will NOT tolerate.

[grimlin]

I've been watching some of the You Tube stories....From some girl had her Nipple ring cut right off to some poor guy had his catheter busted open after he told them what it was and they squeezed it too hard.

I'm second guessing myself rather i ever want to fly again now.

My opinion they are already adding salt to the wound of even more people won't want to fly now. I wonder how many airports are going to be able to stay open after losing even more money.

[bigfruits]

this is interesting, im surprised so many people are considering not flying.

you know, these types of body searches (not scanners) have been going forever, theyre just alot more common now. they used take you into a private area, however. a little more romantic that way.

edit: BTW - i dont know the legality of it but during highschool my car was searched by police at least 5 times. never once did they ask me if they could. apparently theyre also allowed to take pictures of all occupants in the car on the side of the street for their files... no, i did not have a record of any kind.

[tyrius.]

you know, these types of body searches (not scanners) have been going forever, theyre just alot more common now. they used take you into a private area however. a little more romantic that way.

You're wrong. Completely and utterly incorrect; nothing in the above quote is accurate.

I don't understand why people form an opinion on something when they do not truly know the facts of the situation. I actually don't understand how you can even think that these searches "have been going (sic) forever". Have you not been actively listening/reading the news stories? They are all clear that the "enhanced pat downs" are new. The head of the TSA has even stated that he choose not to inform the public that the changes were coming.

[bigfruits]

youre telling me im incorrect?

i went to a special room at Dulles Airport customs coming back from Europe in the late 90's.

A few yrs ago I was taken behind a "screen" getting onto a natl flight, patted down, shirt lifted and underwear band checked. carry-on luggage completely emptied and searched.

[tyrius.]

youre telling me im incorrect?

Yep.  I've flown quite a bit domestically in the last decade.  I've been "searched" by TSA agents numerous times.  This typically involved the use of metal detecting wands and maybe their hands in a limited manner (typically ankles and shoulders).  I've never once had nor seen anyone else have their genitals and/or breasts directly touched by a TSA agent.  Never experienced it, never saw it, never even heard of it happening.  That's because prior to this month it was NOT part of the TSA pat down procedure.

Pisotle, as of July, the new TSA director has changed the procedures.  If you don't believe this to be the case then you haven't been paying attention.

[Bassn Blvd]

That is the point I was trying to make. There are instances where a citizen has less of an expectation of privacy and there are exceptions to the 4th amendment's protection against warrant-less search and seizures. I am saying that boarding a plane seems to have become one of those instances and I think that's OK with me.

There are currently NO instances, except the new airport security policy, where gov't authorities have the authority to touch you wherever they want without, at the VERY LEAST, probable cause. It simply doesn't exist. This new policy is a drastic change in what the gov't is allowed to do to random law abiding citizens.

Ah, but is the search consensual? Isn't the customer allowing the search of his person in order to board the property of another? The customer has the right to refuse such search and walk to his destination.

At what point is the gov't forcing the search of an individual.

Here's an example. You're broke down on the side of the road and desperately need a ride. A police officer stops to assist and offers you a ride. You accept the ride. The police officer tells you that he must search you and your belongings before getting into the patrol car for your ride.

Question: Is that search forced? Can't you refuse the search? Does the officer HAVE to give you a ride?

Isn't my scenario the same as the airports search of passengers?

[Glenn]

I've been patted down by the TSA several times before the new regs went into place recently, and it was certainly more than a pat on the feet and shoulders, I can tell you that! LOL! But that's what happens whenever you wear sweatshirts. 

I've even had them randomly pull me out of the boarding line at the gate to check my shoes and give me another pat down.  But they never once went for my private areas.

Keep in mind I travel A LOT, so the odds of these random searches goes up exponentially. They're kind of annoying, but it's not a big deal IMHO.

I only wish the folks viewing the x-ray images were straight, same-sex individuals. So far, the TSA has not said anything about that.

[tyrius.]

Ah, but is the search consensual? Isn't the customer allowing the search of his person in order to board the property of another? The customer has the right to refuse such search and walk to his destination.

At what point is the gov't forcing the search of an individual.

People who purchased tickets prior to November 1st and then were subject to the search did NOT have any choice.  They did not know that the searches would involve inappropriate touching.

Now, here's how screwed up the whole process is.  So, person A shows up and security tells them that they have to go through the scanner.  They say they opt out and want manual screening.  Then they go to get the manual screening and surprise, they're going to get felt up.  That passenger can not legally choose NOT to go through with the search nor can he change his mind and go through the machine scanner.  If he leaves the airport without going through the TSA security search then he will be subject to an $11,000 fine!  It's ILLEGAL to leave the airport security area without clearing through all of the security procedures.

How's that for choices?  And that answers your question of "At what point is the gov't forcing the search of an individual." 

[tyrius.]

I only wish the folks viewing the x-ray images were straight, same-sex individuals. So far, the TSA has not said anything about that.

I still can't figure out why they don't just show a stick figure or a body shaped outline instead of the naked image.  What possible benefit do they get from seeing nipples and scrotums?  Can't quite figure that one out.

[bigfruits]

I only wish the folks viewing the x-ray images were straight, same-sex individuals. So far, the TSA has not said anything about that.

imagine the amount of TSA employees that would be claiming to be gay to avoid having to feel other dudes up!

i dunno, id rather have a straight female checking out my image. never liked physicals with the male doctor too much. maybe they should offer a choice of your inspector. sex and sexual preference

[FishingBuds]

I only wish the folks viewing the x-ray images were straight, same-sex individuals. So far, the TSA has not said anything about that.

imagine the amount of TSA employees that would be claiming to be gay to avoid having to feel other dudes up!

i dunno, id rather have a straight female checking out my image. never liked physicals with the male doctor too much. maybe they should offer a choice of your inspector. sex and sexual preference

SOOooooo true, I have always had a female doctor, Im comfortable with her than HIM!

[Bassn Blvd]

Ah,

People who purchased tickets prior to November 1st and then were subject to the search did NOT have any choice. They did not know that the searches would involve inappropriate touching.

Now, here's how screwed up the whole process is. So, person A shows up and security tells them that they have to go through the scanner. They say they opt out and want manual screening. Then they go to get the manual screening and surprise, they're going to get felt up. That passenger can not legally choose NOT to go through with the search nor can he change his mind and go through the machine scanner. If he leaves the airport without going through the TSA security search then he will be subject to an $11,000 fine! It's ILLEGAL to leave the airport security area without clearing through all of the security procedures.

How's that for choices? And that answers your question of "At what point is the gov't forcing the search of an individual."

Really? I'm not doubting you, yet, but I did not know that. Like I said before, I do not fly so I'm somewhat ignorant as to what goes on at the airport.  How can you not leave the airport without going through security when you didn't go through security to enter the airport?

What is the federal or state statute for refusing to board your flight because you don't want to be searched?

Glenn said it right. The people doing the search should be the same sex as the person they"re searching. They should also have schooling on proper search techniques.

[tyrius.]

Really? I'm not doubting you, yet, but I did not know that. Like I said before, I do not fly so I'm somewhat ignorant as to what goes on at the airport. How can you not leave the airport without going through security when you didn't go through security to enter the airport?

What is the federal or state statute for refusing to board your flight because you don't want to be searched?

I don't know the actual statute, but it's a federal law.  You can search for Tyner TSA fine to get some news stories regarding it.  Tyner is the "touch my junk" guy from San Diego.  Once you enter the security area you can not leave.  You can leave after just going into the ticketing area, but once you enter security you have to go through it.

Here's one story.

http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-man-faces-fine-for-refusing-tsa-scan,0,7222070.story

[Bassn Blvd]

Wow, that's crazy.  There has to be a sign or some kind of warning ptrior to entering the security zone. Or at least one would think there should be a warning.

"Last chance to turn around befor being groped." ;D

[tyrius.]

Wow, that's crazy. There has to be a sign or some kind of warning ptrior to entering the security zone. Or at least one would think there should be a warning.

"Last chance to turn around befor being groped." ;D

Nope. 

[gobig]

With all the commotion over the invasiveness of the naked body scanners used by the United States Transportation Security Administration (TSA), one question that has been ignored is who is profiting from TSA's use of the body scanners? Mark Hemingway and Tim Carney at The Examiner discovered the shameful answer: George Soros, Michael Chertoff, and a number of lobbyists.

Both Soros and Chertoff are profiting from the naked body scanners by way of the company Rapiscan, whose contract is worth $173 million. Lobbyists for this company include Susan Carr, a former senior legislative aide to Rep. David Price (D-N.C.) who is coincidentally chairman of the Homeland Security Subcommittee.

Former Homeland Security secretary Michael Chertoff was flacking for Rapiscan, writes Tim Carney of The Examiner:

After the undie-bomber attempt on Christmas 2009, Chertoff went on a media tour promoting the use of these scanners, without disclosing that he was getting paid by Rapiscan, one of the two companies currently contracted by TSA to take a nude picture of you at the airport.

[FishingBuds]

With all the commotion over the invasiveness of the naked body scanners used by the United States Transportation Security Administration (TSA), one question that has been ignored is who is profiting from TSA's use of the body scanners? Mark Hemingway and Tim Carney at The Examiner discovered the shameful answer: George Soros, Michael Chertoff, and a number of lobbyists.

Both Soros and Chertoff are profiting from the naked body scanners by way of the company Rapiscan, whose contract is worth $173 million. Lobbyists for this company include Susan Carr, a former senior legislative aide to Rep. David Price (D-N.C.) who is coincidentally chairman of the Homeland Security Subcommittee.

Former Homeland Security secretary Michael Chertoff was flacking for Rapiscan, writes Tim Carney of The Examiner:

After the undie-bomber attempt on Christmas 2009, Chertoff went on a media tour promoting the use of these scanners, without disclosing that he was getting paid by Rapiscan, one of the two companies currently contracted by TSA to take a nude picture of you at the airport.

Correct, and a buddy at work told me that he dumped his stocks as soon as the media was poking their nose in it and asking questions about his investments in the machines. :

[bilgerat]

With all the commotion over the invasiveness of the naked body scanners used by the United States Transportation Security Administration (TSA), one question that has been ignored is who is profiting from TSA's use of the body scanners? Mark Hemingway and Tim Carney at The Examiner discovered the shameful answer: George Soros, Michael Chertoff, and a number of lobbyists.

Both Soros and Chertoff are profiting from the naked body scanners by way of the company Rapiscan, whose contract is worth $173 million. Lobbyists for this company include Susan Carr, a former senior legislative aide to Rep. David Price (D-N.C.) who is coincidentally chairman of the Homeland Security Subcommittee.

Former Homeland Security secretary Michael Chertoff was flacking for Rapiscan, writes Tim Carney of The Examiner:

After the undie-bomber attempt on Christmas 2009, Chertoff went on a media tour promoting the use of these scanners, without disclosing that he was getting paid by Rapiscan, one of the two companies currently contracted by TSA to take a nude picture of you at the airport.

Well, no suprise there. Just more pigs (or elephants or donkeys ) at the public trough. It amazes me what people willingly put up with without questioning anything. George Orwell is surely laughing his *** off wherever he's at. Our founding fathers are drilling themselves towards the center of the earth from spinning in their graves >

[Dan:]

That is the point I was trying to make. There are instances where a citizen has less of an expectation of privacy and there are exceptions to the 4th amendment's protection against warrant-less search and seizures. I am saying that boarding a plane seems to have become one of those instances and I think that's OK with me.

There are currently NO instances, except the new airport security policy, where gov't authorities have the authority to touch you wherever they want without, at the VERY LEAST, probable cause. It simply doesn't exist. This new policy is a drastic change in what the gov't is allowed to do to random law abiding citizens.

Ah, but is the search consensual? Isn't the customer allowing the search of his person in order to board the property of another? The customer has the right to refuse such search and walk to his destination.

At what point is the gov't forcing the search of an individual.

Here's an example. You're broke down on the side of the road and desperately need a ride. A police officer stops to assist and offers you a ride. You accept the ride. The police officer tells you that he must search you and your belongings before getting into the patrol car for your ride.

Question: Is that search forced? Can't you refuse the search? Does the officer HAVE to give you a ride?

Isn't my scenario the same as the airports search of passengers?

Another point that I was getting at when I was saying we don't have a right to fly on an airplane. The decision to fly is a CHOICE so these searches would be consensual as terms of being allowed to fly, would they not?

[Bassn Blvd]

I'd think they were consensual. If you want to fly then you get searched. If you don't want to get searched then don't fly.

Did you read the article Tyrius posted? You have no choice in the matter once you enter into the security area. If you change your mind and don't want to be searched then you're fined 11k for leaving without being searched.

[Hookemdown.]

http://cargocollective.com/4thamendment

Epic.

[Bassn Blvd]

http://cargocollective.com/4thamendment

Epic.

[tyrius.]

Another point that I was getting at when I was saying we don't have a right to fly on an airplane. The decision to fly is a CHOICE so these searches would be consensual as terms of being allowed to fly, would they not?

The decision to drive my car is a CHOICE and the federal gov't does NOT have ability to randomly search me when I'm in my car. 

Also in terms of "rights" and the "right to fly", that isn't how the Bill of Rights works.  It is NOT a comprehensive list of everything that citizens have a Right to do.  I would suggest looking up the difference between negative and positive rights and how that applies to the Bill of Rights and actions by the federal gov't.