A little common sense please

[mattm]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/education/12discipline.html?no_interstitial

Another case of a well intended rule that lack of common sense has managed to ruin.

[frogtog]

Need to take some school officials and send them home for 45 day's without pay or lunch. :

[Maxximus Redneckus]

Wow too much time on there hands what about banning pens and pencils they can poke eyes out also

[Dan:]

Sure, he's six, but haven't there been stories of six year olds shooting/stabbing each other? The mother really should have known better than to let him take a knife to school. Should it really matter? No, but it would have saved her the trouble. The rule is stupid but it's easy enough to avoid. Although the severe punishments are obvious stupidity.

[Other.]

There was a recent story were a 17 year old Eagle Scout got suspended for keeping a 3" blade in his car. A friend or something told the school and they checked his car in the parking lot and he got suspended for that. He was a model student to, had good grades, saved a women life before, joining the Military after school.

[FordNFishinLover]

There was a recent story were a 17 year old Eagle Scout got suspended for keeping a 3" blade in his car. A friend or something told the school and they checked his car in the parking lot and he got suspended for that. He was a model student to, had good grades, saved a women life before, joining the Military after school.

Yep, i think its ridiculus.

And dan, im sure the mother didnt know the boy had it with him. Im sure he just slid it into his pocket not thinking anything about it.

Other, that reminds me of  friend of mine. He was kicked out of our school for having a knife in his truck. He was accussed of pulling a knife on a girl at school (i've talked to him and he didnt, the girl was just trying to get him in trouble.), so the school board searched him his locker and his car. Funny thing is the knife they found in his truck is about 14'' long and would be pretty noticable to see in school....

Sure hope they never search my truck, they will find several knifes, fireworks, blow torches, and other stuff im sure haha.

[Bassn Blvd]

How do they get away with searching the cars?  Lockers yes, but cars?

[Dan:]

How do they get away with searching the cars? Lockers yes, but cars?

They are parked on school property. They can look through the windows as much as they want and can search the car if they have probable cause

[Maxximus Redneckus]

Things have changed  BADLY when i was in school most of us guys carried pocket knives and even guns in our vehicles when deer season was here .this was back when u used fist to fight cause u wasnt skeeeeeered to whip or get whipped, and nope no one pulled out a knife if they was fighting.the USA is aint what it was and aint were its suppose to be goin

[Dan:]

Things have changed BADLY when i was in school most of us guys carried pocket knives and even guns in our vehicles when deer season was here .this was back when u used fist to fight cause u wasnt skeeeeeered to whip or get whipped, and nope no one pulled out a knife if they was fighting.the USA is aint what it was and aint were its suppose to be goin

like English class? ;D

[Bassn Blvd]

Things have changed BADLY when i was in school most of us guys carried pocket knives and even guns in our vehicles when deer season was here .this was back when u used fist to fight cause u wasnt skeeeeeered to whip or get whipped, and nope no one pulled out a knife if they was fighting.the USA is aint what it was and aint were its suppose to be goin

like English class? ;D

How did I know that was coming? ;D ;D ;D

But then again, he would have to change his screen name if he spoke proper English.

[SirSnookalot]

Things have changed BADLY when i was in school most of us guys carried pocket knives and even guns in our vehicles when deer season was here .this was back when u used fist to fight cause u wasnt skeeeeeered to whip or get whipped, and nope no one pulled out a knife if they was fighting.the USA is aint what it was and aint were its suppose to be goin

This thread started out referencing a 6 year olds suspension, I don't know many that age the are driving trucks to school with or without deer rifles.

Back on topic, in this case I think the punishment was over the top.  At least from the photo in the article this child looks to be harmless with no other motives except to test his new camping gear, I feel for the kid.  Perhaps the punishment rendered should done on a case by by case basis and in this case a suspension just for the rest of the day would have been fine.

All that being said, I think it's wise to have laws like these on the books, the goal is simple, a safer environment.

[mattm]

Sure, he's six, but haven't there been stories of six year olds shooting/stabbing each other? The mother really should have known better than to let him take a knife to school. Should it really matter? No, but it would have saved her the trouble. The rule is stupid but it's easy enough to avoid. Although the severe punishments are obvious stupidity.

I'm sure there has, but in this case the knife was discovered b/c he was threating someone.  

I also firmly believe that the study referenced in the article is accurate when it says that racism typically occurs if you leave the rules open to interpretation.  But again a little common sense goes a long way.  Either fire the racist teachers or better yet add a line to the rule that says if a student is caught violating the rule in a non-violent/threating manner that a ONE time warining will be issued.  This way when a kid brings a butter knife to school to cut a cake or a 3" swiss army knife to eat his cereal with they aren't suspended.

[tyrius.]

These rules are ridiculous.  They are all about the administrators not having the guts to investigate each situation and mete out the appropriate punishment.  Instead they get to be cowards and say "It's the rules, I don't have any discretion."

And how does that qualify as a weapon anyways?

[Tin]

Is this over the top and a crazy punishment? yes

Did the student break the rules? yes

Should the parents be held 100% responsible? ABSOLUTELY

Think about if your child was in a fight at school and the child they were in a fight with, took the knife from this kid, and stabbed your kid with it. Granted they are only 6 years old, but I'm sure everyone would want some justice. And this is not a crazy and unimaginable scenario. Things like this happen everyday.

Open and shut case. He broke a rule and deserves to be punished. If anything a 45 day suspension isn't good enough because most look at suspension as a "vacation", I know I did.

IMO...the worst part is the parents

[Tokyo Tony]

Is this over the top and a crazy punishment? yes

Did the student break the rules? yes

Should the parents be held 100% responsible? ABSOLUTELY

Think about if your child was in a fight at school and the child they were in a fight with, took the knife from this kid, and stabbed your kid with it. Granted they are only 6 years old, but I'm sure everyone would want some justice. And this is not a crazy and unimaginable scenario. Things like this happen everyday.

Open and shut case. He broke a rule and deserves to be punished. If anything a 45 day suspension isn't good enough because most look at suspension as a "vacation", I know I did.

IMO...the worst part is the parents

I disagree. The kid took a fork/spoon/knife Boy Scouts eating utensil to school to use it to eat his lunch. That's it. An eating utensil that included an eating knife. To eat his lunch. What is the problem? Tyrius has it right - the problem is this ridiculous "zero tolerance" rule that would go so far as to include a Boy Scouts eating utensil on the same list as a hunting knife. The administrators need to grow a pair. You know what the root of the problem is though? Filthy scumbag lawyers - they're the ones who neutered the administrators.

Oh, and yeah - someone could get in a fight, use this eating utensil to stab someone else, just like he could take a rock and bash someone's head, just like he could use his fist to break a nose, or a pen to poke an eye, etc. There's only so much parents can do. Yes, they are partially responsible for allowing, or not relizing that their kid brought his eating utensil to school. However, I don't think that's something they should be expected to worry about. It's an eating utensil. What happened to kids being kids? This whole culture of over-the-top paternalism infuriates me. Plus I'm peeved because I forgot to put my nicotine patch on today, so every news story I read is really getting to me 8-)

[FordNFishinLover]

Is this over the top and a crazy punishment? yes

Did the student break the rules? yes

Should the parents be held 100% responsible? ABSOLUTELY

Think about if your child was in a fight at school and the child they were in a fight with, took the knife from this kid, and stabbed your kid with it. Granted they are only 6 years old, but I'm sure everyone would want some justice. And this is not a crazy and unimaginable scenario. Things like this happen everyday.

Open and shut case. He broke a rule and deserves to be punished. If anything a 45 day suspension isn't good enough because most look at suspension as a "vacation", I know I did.

IMO...the worst part is the parents

I disagree. The kid took a fork/spoon/knife Boy Scouts eating utensil to school to use it to eat his lunch. That's it. An eating utensil that included an eating knife. To eat his lunch. What is the problem? Tyrius has it right - the problem is this ridiculous "zero tolerance" rule that would go so far as to include a Boy Scouts eating utensil on the same list as a hunting knife. The administrators need to grow a pair. You know what the root of the problem is though? Filthy scumbag lawyers - they're the ones who neutered the administrators.

Oh, and yeah - someone could get in a fight, use this eating utensil to stab someone else, just like he could take a rock and bash someone's head, just like he could use his fist to break a nose, or a pen to poke an eye, etc. There's only so much parents can do. Yes, they are partially responsible for allowing, or not relizing that their kid brought his eating utensil to school. However, I don't think that's something they should be expected to worry about. It's an eating utensil. What happened to kids being kids? This whole culture of over-the-top paternalism infuriates me. Plus I'm peeved because I forgot to put my nicotine patch on today, so every news story I read is really getting to me 8-)

No worries about the nicotine patch man haha! I TOTALLY agree with you on everything you said.

[Maxximus Redneckus]

Is this over the top and a crazy punishment? yes

Did the student break the rules? yes

Should the parents be held 100% responsible? ABSOLUTELY

Think about if your child was in a fight at school and the child they were in a fight with, took the knife from this kid, and stabbed your kid with it. Granted they are only 6 years old, but I'm sure everyone would want some justice. And this is not a crazy and unimaginable scenario. Things like this happen everyday.

Open and shut case. He broke a rule and deserves to be punished. If anything a 45 day suspension isn't good enough because most look at suspension as a "vacation", I know I did.

IMO...the worst part is the parents

i agree with all of what you say BUT what if the weapon is a pen, pencil, drumstick, etc etc anything can be used as a weapon why pic on a knife .think about this......  pretty soon the way things are school officals will be banning everything cause of liability and lawsuits we might as well turn school into prisons right ???? Tin no offense just u had the best reality=qoute match up LOL

[tyrius.]

Think about if your child was in a fight at school and the child they were in a fight with, took the knife from this kid, and stabbed your kid with it. Granted they are only 6 years old, but I'm sure everyone would want some justice. And this is not a crazy and unimaginable scenario. Things like this happen everyday.

The knives that they give out in the cafeteria (do they still get knives) are bigger than this one.  This is clearly not a weapon and should not be defined as one.  

[Tin]

I have never been to a school cafeteria that did not give out plastic knives. I just believe it is a loosing situation for all parties involved but the child did do something wrong and the parents are wrong for starting this whole thing about their kid being innocent.

And there is a big difference in punching someone in the face and slitting their throat with a pocket knife. A pocket knife is still a weapon no matter what you say. I was stabbed by a kid with a sewing needle in home-economics in 6th grade ( it was a mandatory class : ) and so were eleven others. So I had to go for blood-work every month for the next year because of things like AIDS and Hepatitis. And since I'm anemic and have very low-blood pressure, the after-effects are not fun. I just don't find this a joke or an over reaction. Everyone finds it an over reaction until something happens to your kid.

[moby bass]

A knife is a tool.  So is a shovel, a ball bat, a pencil, scissors. etc.

It is intent that should be noted here. If he was threatening, with any of the above items, they would be considered a weapon.  If not, it's merely a tool.  Zero tolerance laws are over the top, IMO.

[Tin]

I should also note that after the kid was suspended for the 45-days, he brought a knife into school about a week after returning and was involved in a fight with another student. After being suspended once again for that and possibly being expellied, he hung himself. Once again, this happened in 6th grade, I believe we were all 9 and 10 years old.

[tyrius.]

I have never been to a school cafeteria that did not give out plastic knives.

Guess I'm old then.  We had metal silverware.

[Glenn]

I should also note that after the kid was suspended for the 45-days, he brought a knife into school about a week after returning and was involved in a fight with another student. After being suspended once again for that and possibly being expellied, he hung himself. Once again, this happened in 6th grade, I believe we were all 9 and 10 years old.

I think Tin touches on something here.  Often we don't hear about all the stuff that happened prior to something like this.  We only hear the very last part of the story.  So that incident, all by itself, does indeed sound overboard.

However, if you discovered this was a problem child with discipline issues, and heard of all the problems they've had with him before (plus all the efforts they put forth to work with him and the parents),  then you might think what they did was extremely lenient.

It's all a matter of context.

[done]

I should also note that after the kid was suspended for the 45-days, he brought a knife into school about a week after returning and was involved in a fight with another student. After being suspended once again for that and possibly being expellied, he hung himself. Once again, this happened in 6th grade, I believe we were all 9 and 10 years old.

I think Tin touches on something here. Often we don't hear about all the stuff that happened prior to something like this. We only hear the very last part of the story. So that incident, all by itself, does indeed sound overboard.

However, if you discovered this was a problem child with discipline issues, and heard of all the problems they've had with him before (plus all the efforts they put forth to work with him and the parents), then you might think what they did was extremely lenient.

It's all a matter of context.

Good point Glenn.

I would really like to see some wiggle room given to administrators here. As was said before if this is a kid who has never done anything wrong and the intention on the specific incident was not malicious, then slap him on the wrist, but bring the parents in and make them aware that this is his one chance, IF there is a next time, there will not be such leniency.

I have 4 kids, in the rush to get them out the door, if one of them decided to grab a butter knife and stick it in their lunchbox, they could do so without me or my wife knowing. The 2 oldest are allow to use them at the dinner table.

We did however sit them down when starting school and explain to them that no knives, forks, etc go to the school.

The other thing is the idea of what is a weapon. A 2-3 inch blade IMO, is less/equal dangerous than a kid with a sharpened pencil or metal pen. Both can be weapons, both can do serious injury to another child. Now a hunting knife or something larger no doubt no proper to be in school. They need to free up the board and/or administrators to make these decisions.

Ideally, IMO, suspend him for a day or 2 first offense, bring him to the board, then give the board to freedom to look at the weapon, intent, kids record, etc and make a balanced decision on appropriate punishment.