PREAKNESS

[Muddy]

How much does a jockey mean?

Borel decides to ride Rachel Alexander  instead of Mine That Bird

Out of the 23 major handicappers none have picked Mine That Bird !

Interesting, Mine That Bird won the Derby by 7 lengths, running away and no one is picking him.

The Derby ride was incredible, that final inside move and not one steward even wondered if Borel bumped or interfered with another horse, that's all jockey skill right there

 This will be a great Preakness, I have no pick, just making some observations.

I do like the Lucas entry to finish in the money

[Muddy]

Great Race! They boxed in Mine That Bird. move to the outside cost him the race

[1inStripes]

That was a good race.  another 1/8 mile and Mine That Bird would have won.  I wouldn't run her at Belmont if I was the owners. I don't think she can win it.  Basically a horse has to have cajones to win that race. I think there has only been 4 mares and 2 geldings to win it, so I doubt Mine That Bird wins it either.

A question I have, is has there ever been a jockey win the Triple Crown without being on a horse that has won the Triple Crown in the same year?

[Muddy]

That was a good race. another 1/8 mile and Mine That Bird would have won. I wouldn't run her at Belmont if I was the owners. I don't think she can win it. Basically a horse has to have cajones to win that race. I think there has only been 4 mares and 2 geldings to win it, so I doubt Mine That Bird wins it either.

A question I have, is has there ever been a jockey win the Triple Crown without being on a horse that has won the Triple Crown in the same year?

 Can you ask that a different way, I don't quite get the question, I am old man you know? I do not know a whole lot about racing, that's why I quit betting years ago.

I have been at a few Belmont Stakes, was there for the great Secretariat's Run, great track and the distance separates the truly great horses from the very good ones

My favorite race and track: The Travers, at the end of August at Saratoga in New York, great old wooden track!

[Muddy]

If I got the question straight; Horses win Triple Crowns Not Jockeys. I do not know if a horse has won all three jewels in the crown , The Derby,Preakness and the Stakes with a different rider in any one race

[roadwarrior]

...another 1/8 mile and Mine That Bird would have won.

Without a doubt, my favorite logic, at least talkin' FutBall:

"If we hadn't run out of time and scored more points,

WE would have won!"

8-)

[Muddy]

IF my AUNT had CLICK CLACKS, she would be my UNCLE!!!!!!!

[1inStripes]

Borel even said she was struggling.  Thats why I would be surprised if she could win Belmont.

You sort of got my question turned around Muddy.  I know the horses win the Triple Crown, but has a JOCKEY won each of the 3 triple crown races in the same year, without it being the same horse that won all 3 triple crown races (ie.  Secretariat, Aalydar, Seattle Slew)  

Basically, has anyone ever had the chance to do Calvin Borel could do at Belmont and win all 3 big races this year, but not be mounted on the same horse for each of those 3 races.

[Muddy]

I am sorry I understand now. I will call my cousin Salvatore, he's the horse guy

[Muddy]

Heres a list of the wiiners of the Triple Crown; I do not know, neither does he, if a jockey won all 3 races on different mounts , which would prevent a Triple Cr own  THAT WOULD BE AN INCREDIBLE FEAT!!!

BCould be done this year, I guess.

Affirmed - 1978

Sire: Exclusive Native

Dam: Won't Tell You

Owner: Harbor View Farm

Breeder: Harbor View Farm

Trainer: L. Barrera

Jockey: S. Cauthen

Derby Time: 2:01 1/5

Preakness Time: 1:54 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:26 4/5

Seatle Slew - 1977

Sire: Bold Reasoning

Dam: My Charmer

Owner: K. L. Taylor

Breeder: B.S.Castleman

Trainer: W. H. Turner, Jr.

Jockey: J. Cruguet

Derby Time: 2:02 1/5

Preakness Time: 1:54 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:29 3/5

Secretariat - 1973

Sire: Bold Ruler

Dam: Somethingroyal

Owner: Meadow Stud

Breeder: Meadow Stud

Trainer: L. Laurin

Jockey: R. Turcotte

Derby Time: 1:59 2/5

Preakness Time: 1:54 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:24

Citation - 1948

Sire: Bull Lea

Owner: Calumet Farm

Breeder: Calumet Farm

Trainer: H. A. Jones

Jockey: E. Arcaro

Derby Time: 2:05 2/5

Preakness Time: 2:02 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:28 1/5

Assault - 1946

Sire: Bold Venture

Dam: Igual

Owner: King Ranch

Breeder: King Ranch

Trainer: Max Hirsch

Jockey: W. Mehrtens

Derby Time: 2:06 3/5

Preakness Time: 2:01 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:30 4/5

Count Fleet - 1943

Sire: Reigh Count

Owner: Mrs. John Hertz

Breeder: Mrs. John Hertz

Trainer: G. D. Cameron

Jockey: J. Longden

Derby Time: 2:04

Preakness Time: 1:57 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:28 1/5

Whirlaway - 1941

Sire: Blenheim II

Dam: Dustwhirl

Owner: Calumet Farm

Breeder: Calumet Farm

Trainer: B. Jones

Jockey: E. Arcaro

Derby Time: 2:01 2/5

Preakness Time: 1:58 4/5

Belmont Time: 2:31

War Admiral - 1937

Sire: Man O'War

Dam: Brushup

Owner: Glen Riddle Farm

Breeder: S. Riddle

Trainer: G. Conway

Jockey: C. Kurtsinger

Derby Time: 2:03 1/5

Preakness Time: 1:58 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:28 3/5

Omaha - 1935

Sire: Gallant Fox

Dam: Flambino

Owner: Belair Stud Stable

Breeder: Belair Stud

Trainer: J. Fitzsimmons

Jockey: W. Saunders

Derby Time: 2:05

Preakness Time: 1:58 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:30 3/5

Gallant Fox - 1930

Sire: Sir Gallahad III

Owner:Belair Stud Stable

Breeder: Belair Stud

Trainer: J. Fitzsimmons

Jockey: E. Sande

Derby Time: 2:07 3/5

Preakness Time: 2:00 3/5

Belmont Time: 2:31 3/5

Sir Barton - 1919

Sire: Star Shoot

Dam: Lady Sterling

Owner: J. Ross

Breeder: J. Madden and V. Gooch

Trainer: H. Bedwell

Jockey: J. Loftus

Derby Time: 2:09 4/5

Preakness Time: 1:53

Belmont Time: 2:17 2/

Seven horses won the Triple Crown in the 1930s and 40s, but only three have won it since. The last, Affirmed, was in 1978.

Since then, seven horses - Spectacular Bid, Pleasant Colony, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Silver Charm, Real Quiet, and Charismatic - have won the Derby and Preakness, but could not add the Belmont.

[1inStripes]

I had Aalydar swapped with Affirmed in my mind.  Point Given was the best horse I have seen that didn't win the triple crown.  Had that horse been interested in racing the day they ran the Derby he would have had it.  He was so much bigger, stronger and faster than the other horses, but just didn't have it that day.  He wiped the track with everybody at Pimlico and Belmont.

[Muddy]

You should have seen what Secretariat did to the field at Belmont! I was there, only Triple Crown I will ever see in my lifetime!

Not only was Secretariat Bigger, the race looked like Secretariat was running and pulling an oil painting of another race behind him at 22 lengths!!!!!!! What a horse, great record and a devastating win!

I bet that 2:24min. /31 lengths win will stand longer than even Dimaggio's hitting streak

[1inStripes]

Point Given was widely compared to Seattle Slew and Secretariat, but the horse just didn't give all it had at Kentucky.  I have said since then that I think the next Triple Crown winner will be a descendent of PG.

[Catt]

After winning on two horses that were long shots I would venture to say Calvin Borel just proved the jockey has something to do with it.

It takes a team; right horse right jockey otherwise you're an also ran

[mattm]

Posted by: Catt Posted on: Today at 8:59am

After winning on two horses that were long shots I would venture to say Calvin Borel just proved the jockey has something to do with it.

It takes a team; right horse right jockey otherwise you're an also ran

I don't understand.  Are you talking about this year?  Rachel Alexandra was an overwhelming favorite and I think Mine that Bird proved his derby run wasn't a fluke.  Not knocking what Borel did, but he for sure wasn't riding a long shot at the Preakness.

[Catt]

Rachel Alexandra became the first filly in 85 years to win the Preakness and you don't consider that a long shot?

I would assume you had her bet to win from the beginning

[atx_newbie]

Rachel Alexandra became the first filly in 85 years to win the Preakness and you don't consider that a long shot?

I would assume you had her bet to win from the beginning

Not saying that Rachel was the favorite to win at the beginning of the year, but she was the race-day favorite.

But I know nothing about horse racing, so I'm really just dropping in to make an idiot out of myself   ;D

[Muddy]

Posted by: Catt Posted on: Today at 8:59am

After winning on two horses that were long shots I would venture to say Calvin Borel just proved the jockey has something to do with it.

It takes a team; right horse right jockey otherwise you're an also ran

I don't understand. Are you talking about this year? Rachel Alexandra was an overwhelming favorite and I think Mine that Bird proved his derby run wasn't a fluke. Not knocking what Borel did, but he for sure wasn't riding a long shot at the Preakness.

[Catt]

Fillies winning in the Preakness were 4 of 134 including an 85 yr drought; not exactly race day favorites sentimental favorite

[mattm]

Rachel Alexandra became the first filly in 85 years to win the Preakness and you don't consider that a long shot?

I would assume you had her bet to win from the beginning  

I didn't bet on the race, but she was my pick to win it.  

How many top phillies have participated in the race.  In recent history the triple crown races have become about the breeders and they want to see stallions in the race.  Stallions can produce hundreds of babies a year a mare one.  It's in there best interest to exclude the phillies.  This is the reason you had two owners that came out and said they were strongly considering entering a second entry so Rachel Alexandra would be excluded from the race.  Probably would of happened, but one of the other owners who happened to be a lady said that if they did this she would withdraw her horse to open a spot for the Philly.  

I'm sure you know this but I think Rachel went of at 8-5 odds. You can bet 100 dollars and only profit 60.  The second favorite went of at 5-1 odds, which are decent odds, you can bet 100 and win 500 at these odds.  Regardless of her sex it is undeniable she was a pretty hefty favorite.

He took a filly, who have a slight muscular disadvantage to a male horse from the 13 hole, and won wire to wire

True on the muscle.  However, phillies also typically have a tactical speed advantage.  Therefore, it isn't near the disadvantage for  a philly to start that far out.  This is why she was up running side to side with the leader into the first turn.  Not 5 or 6 wide which probably would of been a killer.  I suspect if she would of broke as good as she normally does the race wouldn't of been as close as it was.

Fact: No horse has ever won the Preakness,starting from that far out, she stumbled out of the gate and he took her right then got her to concentrate and went wire to wire against a speed horse, and she better in the slop and they were on a somewhat fast track

I'm nervous about quoting this, but don't know how to research it.  I'm pretty sure that a horse has won further out than 13 but never from the 13th slot.  I think in the past when there were more entries at least one horse has won from outside of the 13th position.  I'm not just pulling this out of my rear.  I'm fairly certain I heard it leading up to the race.  I could of heard wrong though.

Also Calvin Borel knows a thing a two about horse racing and in an unprecedented move he gave up his derby winner and a shot at the triple crown to ride Rachel Alexandra.  Seems to me he certainly thought she was the favorite.

[mattm]

Fillies winning in the Preakness were 4 of 134 including an 85 yr drought; not exactly race day favorites sentimental favorite

Thats like saying if I entered an Indy Car race I would be a favorite to beat Danika Patrick b/c I'm a male.

How many times in those 134 tries were the phillies you mentioned favored to win the race?

I'm not arguing that phillies are on an equal playing field with the boys most of the time, but Rachel Alexandra was the favorite to win that race.

[Muddy]

He was Rachel's regular jockey and she was not entered into the Derby, but in the Preakness. He rides her and knew what she can do.

The 13 hole because of the angle to the rail, makes it the hardest hole in the Preakness, actually with no stumble at the start she would have had the race by well over a length. In Belmont, when I was a regular bettor throughout the 70's and into the mid 80's I loved Lucas and the Spring. This was true provided he did not have a mount in 11 slot, it's strange how some slots are a death knoll on certain tracks, I firmly believe it has to do with angle and length of the race.

This why Borel's ride was of championship quality. I did not see the racing form the next day, Perhapes Stripe did, I believe she cut her foot on the tumble and he still brought her right.

btw, you are right about the odds, exactly the trouble that would lure me. I would have wheeled her, or played a few extacas lookinf for a better ROI

My worst day ever was at Belmont. Lucas, who owned Belmont in the spring in the 80's had 5 strong mounts. I exacted all 5 races .

Result: all 5 Lucas horses win, all my 2nd pics finished 3rd or 4th. I did not bet any of the Lucas horses to win, because my logical betting mind said it would jinx the exactas

I have never ,ever picked 5 winners on one card since. :-/ :'(

ps It was 4 Lucas horses and a Levine ( trainer from the Big A), I was corrected by a cousin who was there with me. He had 3 of those races to win, I will never live it down :-/

[Catt]

On average, fillies have won between 2% and 3% of the Triple Crown races, with similar numbers for geldings; while about 95% of these high-stakes races have been won by uncastrated male horses, colts or stallions.

http://www.horse-races.net/library/preak-fillies.htm

Will add while I'm not a horse person but I've been around people who are; the amount of jockeying that takes place prior to a race will leave you scratching your head. I like just putting the horse on the track and race; kind of like a run what you brung race. But no we got to spend all day at the track entertaining people we really don't like. Hours on end listening to a horse's complete genealogy history on both sides; I'm like dude where's my rod?

[Muddy]

Amen to that Catt! I still enjoy watching a good race without wagering.

[CWB]

Heres a list of the wiiners of the Triple Crown; I do not know, neither does he, if a jockey won all 3 races on different mounts , which would prevent a Triple Cr own THAT WOULD BE AN INCREDIBLE FEAT!!!

BCould be done this year, I guess.

Affirmed - 1978

Sire: Exclusive Native

Dam: Won't Tell You

Owner: Harbor View Farm

Breeder: Harbor View Farm

Trainer: L. Barrera

Jockey: S. Cauthen

Derby Time: 2:01 1/5

Preakness Time: 1:54 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:26 4/5

Seatle Slew - 1977

Sire: Bold Reasoning

Dam: My Charmer

Owner: K. L. Taylor

Breeder: B.S.Castleman

Trainer: W. H. Turner, Jr.

Jockey: J. Cruguet

Derby Time: 2:02 1/5

Preakness Time: 1:54 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:29 3/5

Secretariat - 1973

Sire: Bold Ruler

Dam: Somethingroyal

Owner: Meadow Stud

Breeder: Meadow Stud

Trainer: L. Laurin

Jockey: R. Turcotte

Derby Time: 1:59 2/5

Preakness Time: 1:54 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:24

Citation - 1948

Sire: Bull Lea

Owner: Calumet Farm

Breeder: Calumet Farm

Trainer: H. A. Jones

Jockey: E. Arcaro

Derby Time: 2:05 2/5

Preakness Time: 2:02 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:28 1/5

Assault - 1946

Sire: Bold Venture

Dam: Igual

Owner: King Ranch

Breeder: King Ranch

Trainer: Max Hirsch

Jockey: W. Mehrtens

Derby Time: 2:06 3/5

Preakness Time: 2:01 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:30 4/5

Count Fleet - 1943

Sire: Reigh Count

Owner: Mrs. John Hertz

Breeder: Mrs. John Hertz

Trainer: G. D. Cameron

Jockey: J. Longden

Derby Time: 2:04

Preakness Time: 1:57 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:28 1/5

Whirlaway - 1941

Sire: Blenheim II

Dam: Dustwhirl

Owner: Calumet Farm

Breeder: Calumet Farm

Trainer: B. Jones

Jockey: E. Arcaro

Derby Time: 2:01 2/5

Preakness Time: 1:58 4/5

Belmont Time: 2:31

War Admiral - 1937

Sire: Man O'War

Dam: Brushup

Owner: Glen Riddle Farm

Breeder: S. Riddle

Trainer: G. Conway

Jockey: C. Kurtsinger

Derby Time: 2:03 1/5

Preakness Time: 1:58 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:28 3/5

Omaha - 1935

Sire: Gallant Fox

Dam: Flambino

Owner: Belair Stud Stable

Breeder: Belair Stud

Trainer: J. Fitzsimmons

Jockey: W. Saunders

Derby Time: 2:05

Preakness Time: 1:58 2/5

Belmont Time: 2:30 3/5

Gallant Fox - 1930

Sire: Sir Gallahad III

Owner:Belair Stud Stable

Breeder: Belair Stud

Trainer: J. Fitzsimmons

Jockey: E. Sande

Derby Time: 2:07 3/5

Preakness Time: 2:00 3/5

Belmont Time: 2:31 3/5

Sir Barton - 1919

Sire: Star Shoot

Dam: Lady Sterling

Owner: J. Ross

Breeder: J. Madden and V. Gooch

Trainer: H. Bedwell

Jockey: J. Loftus

Derby Time: 2:09 4/5

Preakness Time: 1:53

Belmont Time: 2:17 2/

Seven horses won the Triple Crown in the 1930s and 40s, but only three have won it since. The last, Affirmed, was in 1978.

Since then, seven horses - Spectacular Bid, Pleasant Colony, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Silver Charm, Real Quiet, and Charismatic - have won the Derby and Preakness, but could not add the Belmont.

Muddy-

You either have way too much time on your hands or really love horse racing! ;D ;D