Enough is enough is enough....

[J Francho]

There was a fist fight between two woman at a Walmart close to me this past Friday morning.  In years past, rioting customers actually set the bedding department on fire.  I DO NOT shop there, but my the few times I've been in one, the behavior of customers during normal shopping hours is repugnant.  I can only imagine just how bad it is during the holidays.

[farmpond1]

It makes you wonder if the human race is really all that advanced. Sometimes I hate admitting to being part of it.

Four words: Water cannons, tear gas. Oh, but that might violate their constitutional rights!!!! Animals!!!! >

[Muddy]

Detective Lt. Michael Fleming, who is in charge of the investigation for the Nassau police, said the store lacked adequate security.

Then that is more than likely also true for every other store that does the black friday deals. People wait in line in front of these stores every year across the country and nothing like this has happened yet. So why would it be foreseeable? Is it a possibility? Sure, but that doesn't mean that Wal-Mart (or any other store) is responsible for safeguarding against every possibility.

The responsibility for this crime lies solely on the feet (literally) of those who rushed into the store.

Oh really! The Rolling Stones had to pay up big bucks when there Motorcyle Body guards went out of control at Altamont, was it their fault the Angels tend to kill people? Numerous sporting and concert venues are responsible, as in the Who/Clevland disaster,When that band lit up the stage causing a fire that killed people, the owners were held criminally and civily responsible, as was the moron who lit it up.

 This is not unsual, in fact their is a long history of expectation when any business venture runs an event, to provide a safe and secure enviorment. Opening the door like this has caused other incidents, on Black Friday for Wal Mart, so they knew the risks ahead of time. They do bear some responsibility , plain and simple

[WIII-60]

Why do autobahns have lower fatality rates than most any other highways? Does the idiot need a system, or does a system need an idiot.

Just food for thought.

p.s. I haven't gotten any PM's about wanting to travel down there yet, they will be leaving soon. If anyone wants to go, let me know and I will get you in contact. I can promise that there will be a lot of people to debate this issue with along the way and, you can actually make an impact in the process.

[Muddy]

Just a question, not looking to get anyone crazy;

Why would 2 of the best police forces on the Planet :Nassau County and the NY State Police and neighboring NYPD, want help from in -experienced people, I do not understand this nor have I ever seen it.

Its not like there are thousands dead or a flood, it was a trampeling death, not to lessen the respect and empathy to the young man that was killed.

The interviews have to be precise and the has to be corraboration between witness statements and the electronic evidence, if any indictments are to comeout of this. Inexperienced hands can really mess this up, no matter how well intentioned.

Where did this plea for help generate from, just doesn't make sense

[RobbyZ5001]

I work at Circuit City and we do the following to prevent problems like this from happening.

1. Local police come to control the line.

2. We only let a certain amount of people in the door.

3. We hand out a limited amount of vouchers for the product outside in line an hour before we open.

[tyrius.]

Oh really! The Rolling Stones had to pay up big bucks when there Motorcyle Body guards went out of control at Altamont, was it their fault the Angels tend to kill people?

Without knowing the specifics, all I can say is that it probably wasn't their fault.  That's just my opinion though and my opinion obviously differs from a lot of others.  As is evidenced by the ridiculous lawsuits and payments made to people who have "accidents" inside stores.

[tyrius.]

2. We only let a certain amount of people in the door.

The article said that the crowd basically ripped one of the doors apart (something like the metal door was bent like an accordion).  So, given that I don't see how anyone could only let in a certain amount of those idiots.

[Muddy]

Hey Ty, I PM'd you where you can see that Stones ugly incident. I agree we do have differences of opionions and while I respect yours you have to admit I AM RIGHT

[tyrius.]

Hey Ty, I PM'd you where you can see that Stones ugly incident. I agree we do have differences of opionions and while I respect your you have to admit I AM RIGHT

I didn't expect THAT.  I'd agree that the Stones should be held responsible for that instance.  I thought it was going to be something like the Angels went crazy and beat people up at a concert that they were simply attending.  It's quite a bit different when you hire someone who ends up killing someone else.

That being said, now that I know a little more about the specifics, the two situations are not comparable.  

[slomoe]

So why would it be foreseeable?

http://americannonsense.com/?p=632

Posted on November 23rd, 2007

"The rush at Roanoke's Best Buy turned violent, just seconds after the doors opened at 5 a.m. NewsChannel 10 caught a man on video hitting someone over and over. Watching in slow motion you can see him hit someone at least 5 times."

[Muddy]

For me that is the basis of the similarity; The Stones knew the track record of their "security Force"

Wal Mart and other stores have had a wealth of experience , enough to see that when they conduct these events, people have gotten hurt. A  Lt. from the Nassau County Poilce force went to talk to them about not being prepared as they should and they did not heed his warnings.

[flechero]

Didn't the news reports say that the Wal-Mart door was broken in?

I think that having to remodel the store and install heavier doors is a little beyond "normal" expectations, don't you?  

[Muddy]

That's because the Fat Ladies are always in front. The Seahawks should draft some of them, their QB's could use the protection

[tyrius.]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/12/02/walmart.trampling.suit/index.html

"Customers injured in crush suing Wal-Mart"

America, isn't it great?!?!? :

[WIII-60]

Why would 2 of the best police forces on the Planet :Nassau County and the NY State Police and neighboring NYPD, want help from in -experienced people,

Its not like there are thousands dead or a flood, it was a trampeling death,

So, I'm guessing you're not going?

which of those three forces is the best two? No offense, I just don't understand.

[Muddy]

You invited a group of fellas to help out in a potential murder case at the worst or reckeless endagerment case at the least.

Why would these 3 Police departments , all with outstanding crime investigation units and labs , ask a group of untrained volunteeres to help out in this case

As stated, and you are a trained officer yourself, then you know that it will be extermely important to

1. Identify , from the camera recordings, possible suspects

Depending on the camera placement and digital imaging is going to take hours on hands on EXPERT manipulation

2. There has to be intense interviews and cross checking of those interviews

3. Then they probablly will have to match whatever strong information from those interviews to the electronic evidence, in order to obtain an indictment a DA can work with

Am I wrong with any of this?

How do a group of caring and well meaning amatuers fit into this? Their lack of experience at interagation alone could mess this up hugely.

I ask again, who from LI asked for this kind of assistance? I am very curious to know

Nassau County and Suffolk county to the East, used to have the best percentagesof closing capital cases, I do not know if this is still true. NYPD, for my money is the best force out there.

[WIII-60]

Slomoe:

beneath the planet of the apes?

muddy:

you win.

[flechero]

Muddy, did you miss it?  They asked for help from anyone who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!  

[WIII-60]

There are two groups of people involved in an effort to help. The first Is a trained group that is helping with an investigative effort. The are other are going for things in place to assist the family. Fundraising efforts etc. The invitation is for a combined effort to get anyone who wants to help, And is coming from out of town, in contact.

I'd like to be able to say " I spoke to joe-so-and-so" but, I haven't. I'm sure you could find out who is orchestrating the effort by calling any of these departments.

Just clarification. It seems muddy thought this was fake or something.

[skunked_again]

There are two groups of people involved in an effort to help. The first Is a trained group that is helping with an investigative effort. The are other are going for things in place to assist the family. Fundraising efforts etc. The invitation is for a combined effort to get anyone who wants to help, And is coming from out of town, in contact.

I'd like to be able to say " I spoke to joe-so-and-so" but, I haven't. I'm sure you could find out who is orchestrating the effort by calling any of these departments.

Just clarification. It seems muddy thought this was fake or something.

i think he thought you were serious, he just doesnt see the reasoning. im not quite sure i do either but if the family wants out of town help im sure they will love having you there.

[Muddy]

There are two groups of people involved in an effort to help. The first Is a trained group that is helping with an investigative effort. The are other are going for things in place to assist the family. Fundraising efforts etc. The invitation is for a combined effort to get anyone who wants to help, And is coming from out of town, in contact.

I'd like to be able to say " I spoke to joe-so-and-so" but, I haven't. I'm sure you could find out who is orchestrating the effort by calling any of these departments.

Just clarification. It seems muddy thought this was fake or something.

Just for clarification I DID CALL , an I never spoke to anyone named Joe so and so . According to the NASSAU COUNTY  and VALLEY STREAM POLICE DEPARTMENTS AND DA"S OFFICES INVOLVED NO ONE FROM OUT OF THE JUSITICTION HAS BEEN ASKED TO OR IS HELPING ON THIS CASE. In case you have not figured it completely out, someone very close to me, a family member, in fact two are long time police officers( 27yr Sargent and a 30 + Year Detective 2nd Grade) and I had them check. Since I know them to be truthful and they were the source of the questions I posted I will go with what they have to say.

[flechero]

Muddy,

I try to take you seriously... but really, how can you take the word of a 30+ year old second grader? ;D ;D

[roadwarrior]

Muddy,

I try to take you seriously... but really, how can you take the word of a 30+ year old second grader? ;D ;D

I had to read that a couple of times before it got it. ;D

Okay, I might reopen this if there is a good reason, otherwise

it seems to be getting a little testy and five pages IS enough.

If you feel this thread needs to be reopened, send me a PM for

consideration.

Goodnight Irene.

-Kent a.k.a. roadwarrior

Global Moderator