no bailout

[FishingBuds]

Bailout is a Band Aid,  the root of the problem is not fixed. to be competetive they need to BankRupt and overhaul itself,  re-negotiate ALL contracts to be able to compete with a price, this includes everything down to pennsions. Yes that too, cause the root problem won't be fixed with a band aid cause if so our children will suffer more than us right now

you should be able to work both sides for a better oppinion.

First a company can't do what ever it wants-theres laws for that.

A simple fire needs backed up with a complete history of the employee documentation. If this company cannot prove that they are a fair law employer(meaning everyone is treated with the same policy) they will lose, and I know this for a fact many times over.

The union now-a-days just points you to them laws and the lawyers.

Case in point was Republic windows in Chicago, Union new the laws.

Being on both sides at one time in my life I beleive you simply pay weekly dues for this access thats it. Everything else is politics, So I won't speek no more of that.

Unless the average Joe will educate themselves over Fair labor laws and sexual harrasment laws,  we will always need a union.

[Muddy]

I am the certified and trained chair of our EEO committee, so I can safely safe I know something about the laws. A right to work state requires no proof of whether a person deserves to be fired, a right to work state just wan'ts enough documentation to justify that person collecting unemployment benefits.

 The union where I work, of which i am no longer a member of , since I am in management made the disgusting move of knocking out raises for all under 5 years in the unit. They received Rocca money , because we are contracted to a federal program, this money was awarded to the union to get to prevailing wage, they voted for only the people with 5 years or more, ( Already making 6.95 an hour more) than the newer folks!

 At the same time some pretty creepy stuff the company was doing has been negotiated away. Labor/management can both have a healthy work environment, with clear duties to each other with a good contract and fairness on both sides.

[FishingBuds]

Not certified Muddy but in Evansville, IN. I go to prove we justly fired an employee about 6 times a year.

This is the course

The company obviously does not want to pay for unemployment dues.

There for the company will fight to the unemployment office that the said individual was justly fired, the employee will make a case that he or she was not informed or aware that their employment was indangered or they had no clue of a rule, or that others have not been fired for this same violation. we have to prove that they new this and therefor hopefully the company wins and don't have to pay for unemployment dues,

another case in point, was of a Lady that missed 125 days in one year do to her health, we at one point termed her, she went to the union and they had us prove we accounted for all of her time and it was put down as FMLA leave, without a signature is what it came down to and she got her job back,

One more, a employee told a super he saw another employee pack a bag of work screws in his lunch bucket along with a sizable 1 X 6 board. After we reviewed the video tape and plainly seeing this fella put the screws in his lunch bucket and take out the door with it and the board, we let him go the following morning. Now He went to the union and got his job back because we accussed him of stealing, which was on the term sheet, we violated his rights because it was a slanderes statement?? we was suppose to say he had no permission to take said items.

We lost mainly due to no similair terms from the past, No way to prove we are a fair employer by showing that we let go others in a same manner. Along with the verbal glitches.

There is way more but these I will always remember, this is why I say that a employer can't always simply do what it wants, theres laws

Man I haven't even touched on sexual harrasment.

[Muddy]

Not certified Muddy but in Evansville, IN. I go to prove we justly fired an employee about 6 times a year.

This is the course

The company obviously does not want to pay for unemployment dues.

There for the company will fight to the unemployment office that the said individual was justly fired, the employee will make a case that he or she was not informed or aware that their employment was indangered or they had no clue of a rule, or that others have not been fired for this same violation. we have to prove that they new this and therefor hopefully the company wins and don't have to pay for unemployment dues,

another case in point, was of a Lady that missed 125 days in one year do to her health, we at one point termed her, she went to the union and they had us prove we accounted for all of her time and it was put down as FMLA leave, without a signature is what it came down to and she got her job back,

One more, a employee told a super he saw another employee pack a bag of work screws in his lunch bucket along with a sizable 1 X 6 board. After we reviewed the video tape and plainly seeing this fella put the screws in his lunch bucket and take out the door with it and the board, we let him go the following morning. Now He went to the union and got his job back because we accussed him of stealing, which was on the term sheet, we violated his rights because it was a slanderes statement?? we was suppose to say he had no permission to take said items.

We lost mainly due to no similair terms from the past, No way to prove we are a fair employer by showing that we let go others in a same manner. Along with the verbal glitches.

There is way more but these I will always remember, this is why I say that a employer can't always simply do what it wants, theres laws

Man I haven't even touched on sexual harrasment.

What the hay does sexual harassment have to do with all of this. The highlighted part of your reply states the point ; The Company does not want to pay the added premium to the state for unemployment insurance, and the state needs justification to pay them out.

Anytime an employee exhausts there time our HR department offers them FMLA immediately, as not to run into the above situation. We even offer intermittent FMLA leave , for those with chronic illness as long as they do not go over 12 weeks time in one year.

I caught a guy sleeping for 11 minutes, no witness. It is our experience that Federal Mediators want at least one other witness to prevent vindictive firings, he got a warning. None of these situations are caused by unions. They are to keep in line with the NLRA .

 Keys to successful disciplinary action; Documentation, follow the written contractual steps, Documentation , always try to get statements and witness accounts on paper and Documentation.

[frogtog]

A broke business is a broke business and you can throw all the money at it that you want to and it still will be a broke business. You can't borrow your self out of debt. When a company gets dumb enough to pay one man 50+ million a year and employee's 30+ per hour then there is no way it can survive. Have them move all the company's to eastern NC. The average worker earns less than 15 buck an hour and I will be the CEO for say $500 grand a year. Then we can all ride around in an American made car for half price. I say let them cut their salary's and tighten their belts and see if they can work it out instead of the country bailing them out.

[Muddy]

I am with you Froggy 8-)

[grimlin]

This is wrong...somebody who has 20 yrs of experience can get booted because somebody of 2 yrs experience and is currently taking less pay can take his job from out and under him.Where would the loyalty in that be?

My Dad experience that 10 times in 17 yrs down in Texas....That can hurt a person's pride and everything he did for his job and company.

There really isn't any big unions down there.

I've also worked in a union at one time. The IAM when I worked at McDonnell Douglas, now Boeing.

I saw those ranking, high seniority guys sitting on their back sides sleeping far too often. They were some of the least productive workers in the plant. Mostly because they knew they couldn't be touched. In fact, the seniority system is probably one of the worst things that came out of unionizing. Pay raises should be earned by merit, not how long you've been hanging around a place of work. Monetary raises provide incentive to increase productivity, guaranteed raises via unions do nothing to help a company become more efficient nor make more money.

yes sir i agree,but that doesn't speak for the hard working people.Who actually worked those long years and still continue to work hard.

I always gave my 110% full effort. I was there almost 6 years.Seniority or not I did the best job i could and took pride in it.

I know some people try and take advantage of unions.They make it bad for the rest of us. >  :-/

Compare to the workers and the supplier's workers making $30 an hour,our company wasn't paying anywhere near that for us. Most of us were making $12-$15.It still has me scratching my head at that one.

BTW Frogtog  for CEO!  ;D

As long as i can afford my food,gas and other commodities(fishing junkie) I'm happy.  

[FishingBuds]

Not certified Muddy but in Evansville, IN. I go to prove we justly fired an employee about 6 times a year.

This is the course

The company obviously does not want to pay for unemployment dues.

There for the company will fight to the unemployment office that the said individual was justly fired, the employee will make a case that he or she was not informed or aware that their employment was indangered or they had no clue of a rule, or that others have not been fired for this same violation. we have to prove that they new this and therefor hopefully the company wins and don't have to pay for unemployment dues,

another case in point, was of a Lady that missed 125 days in one year do to her health, we at one point termed her, she went to the union and they had us prove we accounted for all of her time and it was put down as FMLA leave, without a signature is what it came down to and she got her job back,

One more, a employee told a super he saw another employee pack a bag of work screws in his lunch bucket along with a sizable 1 X 6 board. After we reviewed the video tape and plainly seeing this fella put the screws in his lunch bucket and take out the door with it and the board, we let him go the following morning. Now He went to the union and got his job back because we accussed him of stealing, which was on the term sheet, we violated his rights because it was a slanderes statement?? we was suppose to say he had no permission to take said items.

We lost mainly due to no similair terms from the past, No way to prove we are a fair employer by showing that we let go others in a same manner. Along with the verbal glitches.

There is way more but these I will always remember, this is why I say that a employer can't always simply do what it wants, theres laws

Man I haven't even touched on sexual harrasment.

What the hay does sexual harassment have to do with all of this. The highlighted part of your reply states the point ; The Company does not want to pay the added premium to the state for unemployment insurance, and the state needs justification to pay them out.

Anytime an employee exhausts there time our HR department offers them FMLA immediately, as not to run into the above situation. We even offer intermittent FMLA leave , for those with chronic illness as long as they do not go over 12 weeks time in one year.

I caught a guy sleeping for 11 minutes, no witness. It is our experience that Federal Mediators want at least one other witness to prevent vindictive firings, he got a warning. None of these situations are caused by unions. They are to keep in line with the NLRA .

Keys to successful disciplinary action; Documentation, follow the written contractual steps, Documentation , always try to get statements and witness accounts on paper and Documentation.

Dang Muddy I'm not tryen to be an expert here nor am I tryen to out show you on knowledge, I obviously can't compare, I'm just a guy that worked for a union two years one time and work now as a manager for the past 16yrs, once with a union.

What you highlited is true thats why I said it, a company still has to protect itself tho and should have the right to let go an employee thats hurting them.

But I'm not blowing smoke either, This is usually the way it happens in said cases, who wants what and why is what it is.

I have seen more people like said cases be protected by Unions than those that actually needed it. and yes I have a sexual harrasment case that backs that up.

(Been modified-took out the last statement-wasn't cool of me)

[Muddy]

Hey Dawg, It's just a discussion, this is how we learn from each other, this is not a court room.

[FishingBuds]

You started it

[cart7t]

...Have them move all the company's to eastern NC. The average worker earns less than 15 buck an hour and I will be the CEO for say $500 grand a year. Then we can all ride around in an American made car for half price. I say let them cut their salary's and tighten their belts and see if they can work it out instead of the country bailing them out.

"Southern Auto Industry - Some Backstory"

"Looks like, for now, some Southern Republican Senators have succeeded in their effort to kill the U.S. auto industry, and further diminish their favorite bogeyman, labor unions. Their reasons are multivalent but the fact that the south boasts large, highly subsidized foreign auto plants, featuring thousands of non-union jobs is certainly front and center.

We know the South threw billions of subsidy dollars to land these jobs, but at what cost? And how good is the labor pool to work at these plants?

An August, 2005 article in Facing South, the online magazine of the Institute For Southern Studies, Toyota Reveals Limits of Great Southern Jobs Scam offers some insight...

Last month, Toyota made a decision that didn't get a lot of press, but sent ripples of concern through state houses across the South.

The Japanese auto giant announced that it was going to bypass offers of hundreds of millions of dollars in "recruitment incentives" (corporate subsidies) from several Southern states, and would instead set up shop in Ontario, Canada, which was offering much fewer give-aways.

The decision to head north was an embarassment for Southern states eagerly competing to lure Toyota, on several levels. Not only did they lose a trophy job-creator for their state. But the reason Toyota gave for the move was especially damning:

"The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the southeastern United States," said Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant [...]

Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double [the] subsidy [southern states were offering]. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment."

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/steve_katz/2008/12/southern-auto-industry---some.php

Apparently the Japanese have had enough of paying way too much to train under-educated southern workers and will move to Canada.

[Muddy]

You started it

Well if that's the way youre gonna be:  

[FishingBuds]

;D

Thanks Muddy

Its all good, sorry about that earlier

[Chris at Tech]

Here's my take...

The Big 3 have turned into pension plans with small manufacturing operations attached to them.

Until the UAW realizes they exist in a GLOBAL economy (and let that econony dictate compensation), pumping money into the industry will only be throwing money away.

I'm not a big fan of allowing my tax money to be given away to an industry that refuses to acknowledge the problems they created themselves.  And working through those issues will involve change on both the management and union sides.  

But like others said, UAW workers need to take a SERIOUS look at other car companies (Toyota, for example) to see how these companies treat their workers fairly, remain competitive in the market place and still make a good profit.  I think the statistics show that non-unionized plants are more profitable and more productive...

[burleytog]

Unions may have been needed 100 years ago. Now, not so much.

The only thing the UAW is accomplishing is ensuring that GM, Ford, and Chrysler will go bankrupt.  I guess principles are more important than jobs, eh comrade?

[frogtog]

...Have them move all the company's to eastern NC. The average worker earns less than 15 buck an hour and I will be the CEO for say $500 grand a year. Then we can all ride around in an American made car for half price. I say let them cut their salary's and tighten their belts and see if they can work it out instead of the country bailing them out.

"Southern Auto Industry - Some Backstory"

"Looks like, for now, some Southern Republican Senators have succeeded in their effort to kill the U.S. auto industry, and further diminish their favorite bogeyman, labor unions. Their reasons are multivalent but the fact that the south boasts large, highly subsidized foreign auto plants, featuring thousands of non-union jobs is certainly front and center.

We know the South threw billions of subsidy dollars to land these jobs, but at what cost? And how good is the labor pool to work at these plants?

An August, 2005 article in Facing South, the online magazine of the Institute For Southern Studies, Toyota Reveals Limits of Great Southern Jobs Scam offers some insight...

Last month, Toyota made a decision that didn't get a lot of press, but sent ripples of concern through state houses across the South.

The Japanese auto giant announced that it was going to bypass offers of hundreds of millions of dollars in "recruitment incentives" (corporate subsidies) from several Southern states, and would instead set up shop in Ontario, Canada, which was offering much fewer give-aways.

The decision to head north was an embarassment for Southern states eagerly competing to lure Toyota, on several levels. Not only did they lose a trophy job-creator for their state. But the reason Toyota gave for the move was especially damning:

"The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the southeastern United States," said Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant [...]

Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double [the] subsidy [southern states were offering]. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment."

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/steve_katz/2008/12/southern-auto-industry---some.php

Apparently the Japanese have had enough of paying way too much to train under-educated southern workers and will move to Canada.

Yea that is probably true, but we have the NC Educational Lottery now to help us spell and write and things are going to get better for us. You see we have learned to live off of next to nothing. Every dollar we make we have to give .50 cent to the ones that don't work so they can live too. ( That's where our new CEO got his idea from )

God Bless America

[Muddy]

;D

Thanks Muddy

Its all good, sorry about that earlier

Hey interaction, even with an adversary edge is all cool, no bother, Sorry if I made you uncomfortable on any level but it is all good in the hood. Disagreement doesn't mean confrontation.

[Muddy]

Unions may have been needed 100 years ago. Now, not so much.

The only thing the UAW is accomplishing is ensuring that GM, Ford, and Chrysler will go bankrupt. I guess principles are more important than jobs, eh comrade?

Hey Mook: they factor in the equation, but much more so was the stubborness of management not to change their product base, or to see the obvious: SHORTAGES OF SUPPLY>> real or not OPEC has us by the onions controlling the flow. They needed to move away from those big SUV's and Pickups and more hybrids. THEY WAITED TOO LONG so the onus lies way more with management. Why do you think the feds are so reluctant to give them money?

[Gatorbassman]

Where I live-

Cost of living is low, pay is high.

I don't worry about my job, they treat me well.

You can buy a 2000sqft home in one of the best neighborhood for 140,000.

Gas is nearly the lowest in the country.

There are no Unions to be found anywhere.

I don't see the upside to being involved in a Union. What can they give me that I don't already have?

[Hookemdown.]

I don't see the upside to being involved in a Union. What can they give me that I don't already have?

Unemployment.

[Muddy]

Hey Gene; where you live the standard of living is in good proportion to your expenses. Try living in NYC, or LA or Chicago, on what you make.

I have a friend who is an RN, was making 27 bucks an hour here, moved to a unionized state/job in New Jersey , wage 87 bucks an hour. She has a much larger work load, and a steeper mortgage and i can tell you if there was no union they would not be able to make that kind of dough. It is different in various parts of the country

I make small money at what I do, but then again my rent is 375 a month all included, in NYC the same Apt. would be 1,200 a month. Different situations call for different protections for the work force.

[Gatorbassman]

I'm sorry but I am very ingnorant of how a Union works. So I'm asking these questions for my own understanding.

Muddy, Your statement brings up another question. Could the Unions have had something do do with the increase in cost of living over all these years?

[Hookemdown.]

I'm in the dark on unions as well.

I've got to write an essay for a scholarship.  The topic is Organized Labor's Contribution to the Welfare of the People of North America.

This is certainly not my specialty.

[Muddy]

I'm sorry but I am very ingnorant of how a Union works. So I'm asking these questions for my own understanding.

Muddy, Your statement brings up another question. Could the Unions have had something do do with the increase in cost of living over all these years?

Absolutely! The thing is how do we all say when it is fair?On our site, and you need to know I was in the union before my promotion.

This is what they have; 2 to 5 weeks a year paid vacation ( at 10 years you max out at 5 per) 2 weeks sick pay ( you can carry up to 240 hours),starting pay 10 bucks an hour( 2 dollars better than most in area), Health plan for 38 per month,401 K if you choose, dental, eyeglasses, 8 holidays and 2 floating holidays( Opening day of Deer season and Trout Season!) and tuition reimbursement.

 Now the union wants more control over the schedule and more OT, after they just grieved the fact that there is too much OT and mandating going on. They used more sick time as a unit then they accrued

 So you see Gene Unions do bring good benefits for the worker, they also make relationships good, because your decisions as management, are guided by the negotiated contract. There are always a few mooks on either end that go too far in either direction.

[cart7t]

I'm sorry but I am very ingnorant of how a Union works. So I'm asking these questions for my own understanding.

Muddy, Your statement brings up another question. Could the Unions have had something do do with the increase in cost of living over all these years?

Unions can certainly have good points, especially these days.  Mostly as far as workers rights.  In many states, if a new boss walks in that turns out not liking you, he can systematically target you and either make things so bad you'll quit or he'll fire you.  I've seen it happen.  That would never happen if said worker was under a union contract.

Unfortunately,  that's about as far as I see the plusses of union membership vs. non go.  

Unions stifle increased productivity and creativeness by basing everything on tenure on the job.  It's all for one and one for all.  A person working for a company for 2 years has no incentive to do any more than the same person working for the company 20 years.  They're both locked into pay/benefit structures via the unions contract with the company.  Whether the 2 year guy is more creative, brighter or more productive, come layoff time he goes first.  Come raise time he gets no more than any of this other workers within his/her tenure ranking.  Since most union companies wage scales are structured within these seniority systems,  workers can never move into higher pay wage scales unless it's written into a contract.  They can work their arse off and be a positive contributer to the company but it gets them nothing as far as increased monetary compensation for that performance.

There's more.  The creation of job classifications that don't allow you to do a certain job outside your classification despite the fact you're perfectly capable of it.  It's done as a way to protect workers and prevent multi-tasking which could conceivably put some workers out of jobs.  

Example.  You're an EMT.  If you were unionized there may be a classification that wouldn't allow just anyone to administer life saving procedures on infants.  An infant specialist would be tasked with this even though you may be perfectly capable of doing the job.  

Now imagine you're on a call and an infant needs an emergency trache tube inserted.  Suppose an infant specialist didn't come along on the call.  Obviously you would perform the procedure yourself but a union shop steward would file a grievance with the company after the call was over because an infant specialist didn't perform the procedure.  The company would be penalized $$.   Of course, the number of infant specialist available is spelled out in the union contract.  They also make more money.  The company, in an attempt to save themselves expenses, limits the number of infant specialists available.