another rifle question

[Dan:]

Ok, sorry for making another thread about this, but as I've said before, I've been interested in buying my first rifle soon and I want to make sure I get the right one. Now my question is about cartridges.

I am looking for a rifle that I can use for deer and varmints. I've been looking towards .243, .25-06, and .270 calibers. I know .270 is on the heavy side for varmint, but I've read that with the right grain it will work. I've also read that .243 is light for deer and requires very good accuracy to be used for deer ethically. So basically I want to hear what you hunters have to say about these three calibers and what I should look at in more detail. I also want to keep in mind the availability and price of ammo in these calibers.

[preach4bass]

I would go with the .243.  It is fine for varmint hunting (and general plinking), but it is also fine for deer hunting.  Some folks claim that the .243 won't knock a deer down, and they'll run off and die in the woods.  But, contrary to what people say, there is no magical cal. that will take a deer down without running every time.  That depends more on the shooter.  If you hit a deer in the right place you're going to kill it whether you're using a .243 or a 7mm.  Practice on the varmints enough and learn how to track a wounded deer and the .243 should serve you well.

[Micro]

I'd skip all the calibers you mentioned. IMO, the .243 is as light as you would want to go for deer. The others are based on the .30-06 case and will give you and ***-whoopin' with respect to recoil - which is ok for deer, but hell when varmit hunting.

My recommendation is the 7mm-08. The round is based on the .308 case. It can be had in short action rifles, like the .243 (which is also based on the .308 case). Many rifles are chambered for it, and ammo is readily available.

http://en.wikipedia....mm-08_Remington

[luckyinkentucky]

I wouldn't hunt a deer with anything smaller than a .30 caliber round.  I hear guys all the time hunting with .243, but they end up chasing them a country mile in the driving rain.   ;D  A .20 caliber round like the ones you've mentioned are purely varmint rounds in my opinion.  I hunt with a 45-70 and I use light loads for deer, and heavy loads for elk and bear.  

If you are interested in a shorter round then look into the .300 WSM or Winchester Short Magnum.  It is the equivalent of the .300 Winchester Magnum just in a shorter casing.  I believe they make several Model 70s for that cartridge.  

Like I said ... you can kill a deer with a .243 or .270, but your meat is going to taste like the south end of a north bound mule.  If the deer runs after you shoot it you will have a gamey taste to your meat unless you soak it in milk overnight to remove the lactic acid in the muscle tissue caused by the deers natural response to run.  

That's the primary reason I use a 45-70 is because 99% of the time I will knock the animal down, and they won't get up.  Almost all of my meat is not tainted by the gamey taste that is associated with fleeting deer.  

[Siebert Outdoors]

what kind of varmints?

From the sound of it I would go with the 25-06 but I also would like to know what varmint.  

[Gatorbassman]

It all depends on where you live and what your average shot is. I hunted with a 300win Mag for years here in Georgia. I reload so I would load it down a little. But I started thinking about what my average shot was and realized that it was less than 20 yards. So I switched to a .243 last year and have enjoyed it ever sence. It knocked down several deer this year and last. Nothing is more valiuable than practice though. The gun is only as good as the shooter.

I would say that if your average shot is less than 75yards on a deer then a .243 will do you fine. If you have to reach out and touch them then you need a heavier bullet so it will have good knockdown power down range. There is no better caliber than a .30cal bullet if you reload. It comes in every make, model, and size you can think of. I used to hunt varmints with my 300mag but I loaded it with a screaming 95grain bullet that came out of the barrell at more than 4500fps. When I went Cariboo hunting in Canada I loaded it with a 165gr bullet and dropped both of my bulls.

Are you going to do more deer hunting than Varmint hunting? If so than a .270 will be a good choice.

[Micro]

DD lives in Virginia according to his bio. The only varmits we have here are chucks and coyotes. Any round mentioned thusfar, except the .45-70, would pull good double duty on Virginia deer and Virginia varmits. IMO, the .243 is underkill for deer, and the .270 is overkill for varmits. The .25-06 is a great round for both. The 7mm-08 is a great round for both. The .25-06 will have a better trajectory, but the 7mm-08 will have less recoil.

The .45-70 is a good short range deer round. It has a rainbow trajectory, though. Rifles chambered for it are limited - Marlin 1895, Ruger #1, Browning/Winchester Hi-Wall, some replicas, and a smattering of other rifles. IMO, not a good choice for a first deer rifle, and not good choice for a combo deer/varmit rifle.   I've used the .45-70 on deer and factory 300 grain Remington HPs wll drop a deer quickly.  I've also used the .45-70 on Maine bear and Moose and with the right loads it will drop those in their tracks, too.

[Hookemdown.]

I use a .270 with 150 grain bullets for deer.  I haven't had any problems yet.  I highly recommend the .270

[Micro]

The .270 is a classic deer round.   Almost as perfect a dedicated deer round as they come.  I hunted deer for years with a Weatherby Vanguard in .270 Win shooting 140 gr boattails.   No problems with the round.

[Micro]

I used to hunt varmints with my 300mag but I loaded it with a screaming 95grain bullet that came out of the barrell at more than 4500fps.

So you are well aquainted with throat erosion, huh?   ;D

[Gatorbassman]

Or you can get a Tompson Center Encore and get both the .243 and .270....... Problem solved.

That's what I have my .243 in.

I just got a .308 for mine but I haven't put a scope on it yet. It will be for those rare times when I'm hunting fields.

[Dan:]

Wow, thanks for the info guys. I should say the reason why I didn't want to go to the .30 caliber rounds because I was worried about the recoil. I've shot a .243 and the recoil was nothing.  Being that I am new to shooting and hunting, I wanted my first rifle to be a forgiving one, that's why I was narrowing it down to .243-.270 initially.

Fluke, I actually had considered the Encore for the very reason you suggested but it's out of my price range right now.

And thanks for the .45-70 suggestions, but I don't think I will be comfortable using something that powerful as a beginner. And the ammo is generally harder to find where I am and a lot more expensive than these other rounds.

So two more questions need answered:

Am I going to be able to find .25-06 or the 7mm08 rounds as easily as the .243 or .270? Are any more expensive than the others?

How will the .25-06 , 7mm08, .270 and .30 cal rounds compare in recoil approximately? I'm a beginner so I don't want anything too strong but I'm no daisy, I'll be able to handle some recoil.

Also, a few models I have been looking at in particular are the:

Mossberg 4x4

Mossberg 100ATR

Savage Stevens Model 200

Savage Model 111

If anyone knows anything about these rifles, good or bad, please let me know. I don't know a whole lot about guns and brands and what not so I'm kinda just winging it so far. If anyone has any suggestions for rifles, I'd be glad to hear them. I'm trying to spend around $400 though.

[Micro]

The recoil difference between the .25-06 and the .270 using factory rounds with bullets suitable for deer is going to be negligible.  The recoil difference between the .243 and 7mm-08 is going to be negligible as well.   The difference between the .25-06/.270 and the .243/7mm-08 is going to be more substantial.

The 7mm-08 is highly regarded as a deer hunting round.  It's easy on the shoulder, too.  

The 7mm-08 has grown tremendously in popularity in the last decade or so.  Many brands of rifle are chambered for it.   All of the major ammo makers make 7mm-08 ammo.  You can get ammo for it just about anywhere that sells ammo.  

If you want a forgiving deer rifle - one that easy on the shoulder (recoil wise and carrying wise), that can pull occassional double duty on chucks or coyotes (you won't be burning up the ammo on these varmits), and which has enough power to drop any whitetail deer anywhere, and which will be as at home in the thick woods as it would be on a stand overlooking a beanfield, and which can take the elements without blinking, then I recommend the Remington Model 7 in stainless steel with composite stock.  

The Remington Model seven is a scaled down lighter verson of their Model 700.  The action is timeless - smooth, and reliable.  Remingtons have some of the best triggers out-of-the-box of any rifle.   Add a scope with a low to medium magnification range, and you have the perfect Virginia deer rifle.

If you want a scope recommendation, I highly recommend Burris.  I've used Leupold, Weaver, Redfield, Zeiss, and Burris.  For durability and consistency, you can't beat Burris.  My favorite scope, which would be perfect on a Model Seven, is the Burris Signature 2-8x (not sure if it's made anymore).  The Burris Fullfield II line is also extremely good, and less expensive.  A good 2-7x or 3-9x scope will do you just fine.  

[Micro]

You didn't have the $400 limitation or rifle choices in your post when I responded.  Scratch the Model Seven.  

I don't know much about the Mossbergs.  But Savages have great reputations - and powerhouse actions, and super barrels.  Of the rifles you listed, I'd go with the Savage 111.   You could mount some Weaver scope bases, get a decent Bushnell scope, and some Weaver rings and you'll have one of the toughest deer rifles on the planet.  BTW, the 111 is chambered in 7mm-08.

[Dan:]

yea, sorry micropterus, I just edited it. Thanks for the recommendation anyway. I have heard good things about the Savage before, and I was just noticing it came in 7mm/08.

I'm definitely going to think more about the 7mm/08 though, I just found a field and stream article about it that is really making me lean towards it. Thank you.

[Catt]

Cartridge: .243 Winchester 100 grains Recoil energy: 8.8 Recoil velocity: 8.7

Cartridge: .270 Winchester 130 grains Recoil energy: 16.5 Recoil velocity: 11.3

Cartridge: 7mm-08 Remington 140 grains Recoil energy: 12.6 Recoil velocity: 10.1

Cartridge: 45-70 Government 300 grains Recoil energy: 23.9 Recoil velocity: 14.8

The .243 would be best because you can get bullets light enough varmints or heavy enough for deer

The 7mm-08 Remington is a fine cartridge but you will have problems finding them.

The .45-70 Government's recoil is scary for a seasoned shooter and at 300 grains it's over kill for most deer.

Here's a link that may help you out  

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2d.rifles.htm

[Micro]

The 7mm-08 Remington is a fine cartridge but you will have problems finding them.

Unless you have no Wal Mart, Kmart, Dicks, BPS, or any gun or outdoor store anywhere near you, you might have trouble finding 7mm-08 ammo.  

No doubt, the .243 is a better varmit cartridge.  But the 7mm-8 is a better deer cartridge.  The only factory loadings in .243 suitable for deer are 100 grain loads.  Winchester makes some 95 grain loads but these are really light bullets for deer.

[Catt]

Dan asked for a combination varmint/deer rifle; the .243 fits this bill perfectly and the ammo is more readily available in small town stores where most hunting is done.

[Gatorbassman]

The fact is he will probably only take 3 or 4 shots a year at deer and dozens of shots at varmints. A 243 with a 95gr bullet will kill a deer in VA. I have done it 9 times to be exact and one of my deer did run........ about 20yards. I killed three coyotes with it this year. It is all about practice. So Dan we have given you a few good choices and hopefully we have educated you a little. Take your pic and go practice.

My last bit of advise is don't buy a cheep scope. You will regret it later.

[Catt]

My last bit of advise is don't buy a cheep scope. You will regret it later.

X2

[Micro]

You can kill a deer with a .22 LR.  Truth be known, that round has probably killed more deer than most "deer rounds."   It's not the best choice.  

A .243 will kill a deer.  But shot placement, while critical with any caliber, is especially so with a rifle with such a small light bullet.   Of the 70+ deer I've killed, I've taken shoulder shots on the vast majority.  Breaking a shoulder is the quickest way to anchor a deer.   A 140 grain 7mm will do it better than a 100 or 95 grain 6mm.  You may be taking fewer shots at deer than at varmits, but you're going to be best served by a deer rifle you can use on varmits, not a varmit rifle you can use on deer.

BTW, if you live in Northern Virginia, you can get any ammo you want for any caliber at Green Top.  http://www.greentophuntfish.com/

It's the only store I know where you can walk in and find calibers like 7mm Weatherby Magnum and .358 Norm sitting on the shelves.  You are not going to have any difficulty finding 7mm-08.

[Dan:]

I've been to greentop before, it's an amazing store. It's a little far for me though. What concerns me is that having worked at Dick's in the hunting/fishing section, I know we had lots of .243 and .270 but I don't recall noticing if we had any 7mm or .25-06.

I'm going to wait a bit longer and find some more stuff out, but I'm still stuck on .25-06, 7mm-08, and .270. The first two are very attractive to me but the third seems to be the cheapest and easiest to find. Plus, I think I'll be more confident shooting the heavier .270 at my first deer when the time comes, knowing that it packs more punch than the others.

I'm really not sure how much varmint or deer hunting I will do. My goal is to go after deer eventually but I also want to do a lot of target shooting with friends and what not. The varmint part is really just in case I want to shoot groundhogs with my grandpa. He gets them tearing up my grandma's garden...My priority is really on target and deer and maybe some varmint. I think the .270 because it's cheaper and easier to find and more powerful will do better for these purposes, and a lighter grain will work for groundhogs right? (not blow them too pieces?)

[Micro]

If that's your priority, the .270 is a great choice.    If you were shooting prairie dogs (which we don't have) and were burning up the ammo, a .270 be overkill on dogs and on you.  But for the occassional chuck, no problem.  

If it were me, I'd select a round that your rifle shoots well and stick with it for both deer and chucks.   If it's adequate for deer, it will be way more than adequate for chucks.  You aren't going to "blow" a chuck apart anymore with a 130 or 140 grain deer bullet than you will a 100 grain varmit bullet (but who cares if you did, unless you were going to eat them - in which case you could just make chuck fritters ).  The benefit to finding and using one round is that you don't have to re-adjust your scope for a second round.  

About a scope, I agree 110%, don't buy cheap.  You will reget it.   Cheap scopes will last a little while, but pretty soon they won't hold zero, start to fog up, then suddenly you hear something rattling inside.  The least expensive scope I know of that has a good reputation is the Bushnell Trophy for about $110.  Preferably, you should budget more - $150 to $200 to get a really good scope that will last as long as your rifle.  I have several Burris scopes and that are the bomb-digity.  You can bet the Fullfields for about $200.  Nikon makes a great scope for about $150 - the Pro Staff.  Leupold makes a Vari-VX model for about $200.  If you go to Green Top after deer season, they'll have sales on their rifles and scopes and you get a much reduced price.

The reason I prefer Green Top is because it is privately owned.  It has a huge selection.  The sales people are very knowledgeable.  They can do some work on your gun, like mounting your scope.  They can ship your gun if is ever needs warranty work.  They have a store guarrantee in addition to the manufacturers warraty.  And they will match any price.   It may be far away (it is for me, too - 75 miles), but you aren't going to be buy rifle ammo every other day.  Just buy a few boxes and that will last you one or more seasons.  

[Dan:]

Thanks for all the help, fellas. I really do appreciate it.

Micro, I may have to go to Greentops to make my purchase, they have more guns than anyone I've ever seen before...