Prison reform?

[fish-fighting-illini]

They always say that we release criminals early because we don't have room in the prisons to keep them. The reason we don't have room is that it is too expensive. What is the " real cost " of letting them out though? The revolving door of more crimes, more lawyers, judges, policeman, hospitals and doctors because of the crimes. Also the price of insurance, damage to property, stolen goods on and on.

Why doesn't a state or the feds fund a study using a college or colleges and calculate the cost of all the re-peats as a result of letting the criminal out early. Maybe do the study based on one state rather than the whole country to keep it simple. Heck we fund studies for Owl droppings why not study something really important? I'd bet that cost is many times over what it would cost to keep them locked up.

Then go to a 3 strikes and out deal for certain severity and higher crimes, The 1st offense is 5-7 yrs, the 2nd is 25yrs and NO getting out early. If the person was 25 on last offense then they get out at 55 and are much less harmful than when they went in.

For the 3rd offense you are done you are a life 'er.

Use the money we were originaly saving and really put the teeth and money into rehabilitation. Teach, educate and train them on conduct how to live life and make them a desirable person to hire when they are out.

Just my ranting and raving but courious of your thoughts

[Guest muddy]

Prison for profit: Thye company I work for is an example. They are slowly moving more into managing Federal Prisons, on bid, than Job Corps Centers

THERE ARE MANY JOBS; PRISON CONSTRUCTION; POLICE;JUDGES;BONDS MEN; COURT EMPLOYEES; PRSION GUARDS AND SUPPORT STAF; AND  LAWYERS , PROSECUTORS and JUDGES

All those jobs would diminish greatlyIF IT WEREN'T FOR REPEAT OFFENDERS

Same as the "war on drugs"

[mattm]

Hey Illini if you run across a show called Prison Nation you should check it out.  Judging by your post you'll find it interesting.  It comes on the National Geographic channel.

[flechero]

THERE ARE MANY JOBS; PRISON CONSTRUCTION; POLICE;JUDGES;BONDS MEN; COURT EMPLOYEES; PRSION GUARDS AND SUPPORT STAF; AND LAWYERS , PROSECUTORS and JUDGES

All those jobs would diminish greatlyIF IT WEREN'T FOR REPEAT OFFENDERS

Same as the "war on drugs"

I certainly hope that's just a casual observation and not a justification for early release or early release without rehabilitation. Our courts are already severely backed up, police and prison gaurds are understaffed and overworked (at least in my own state) and I don't even want to get started on the drug war....

I don't care if my taxes double, I'm not willing to sacrifice the safety of my family, friends and the population at large so we can "keep job security" for many that are already overworked. For the few that might actually see a job cut, it's cheaper and easier to retrain them (at full wages) for another career than to hunt down all the criminals and rebuild the lives of the victims left in the wake. Our police are busy enough with 1st time offenders.

Let's not forget that police, judges, prison guards, support staff and court employees are already paid with our tax dollars so any financial impact would be minimal in the grad scheme of things. Construction employees are in demand all over the place and every lawyer I have talked to has more than enough business than to give me an appointment in less than a couple weeks time.

[Guest muddy]

A couple of cases in point; A friend of mine did 6 years, hard state time for a series of burgalries. He did his time, went to college in prison and became an optitian and worked for the NY Prison system. He designed how they dispense there eye glasses on a prision level and saved the eons in money. Then he gets out and the state did not want to licence him. He got out in the early 70's and has been drug and crime feree for many years.

He took them to court. The law was changed , if you were in for a non violent crime, recived your degree in prision and practiced in prision YOU NOW HAVE TO GET LICENCED when you get out

If not what was he to do? How would you like to pay your debt to society , change your ways, do years upon years of community and prison service ( FOR FREE) and have unforgiving self rightous people close you out of society. What is the incentive to mend your ways. Thank God it's not up to the self rightous or he and i would be back in the joint , because there are people out there who do not get the OK you payed your debt, you are behaving and we frogive you and welcome back.

The other case in point is me. I have cleaned up my act, I am working on fighting poverty,I do hours of communuity and prison service and I really do not give a ^$#@#! ABOUT THE SELF RIGHTOUS it is my moral responsibility to better my self and contiue to make a grateful and tru restitution to society

These are the same pewople who throw bible verse around, I guess they missed the story of the Prodigal Son. I do not belive in the bible but many who judge do. I have been staying away from answering posts from certain people. But I an not be silent here because i know the plight of many ex cons and the stigma people want to put on the, have said my piece and now for the civility of the forums I will refrain from arguing but i had to answer thsi                           .

Thanks To All who read this who are willing to give a covict who has worked hard a second chance at coming into society

PS The gentle man above did 6 years of a 10 year bid, he earned early release and has been a tax paying and useful part of society since. As I have been to. There are many more, with lives much harder , and have come back from the abyss. They stand to fight the stigma and they are sucessful members of society, who used their prsion time wisely and cherished their early releases.

[MALTESE FALCON]

Here in the Detroit area, it seems a week doesn't go by without hearing on the news about somebody who has just been released from prison committing another serious crime.

I agree, something needs to be done.

Falcon

[Guest avid]

When it comes to punishing people,

my experience is that hatred, anger and fear are the motivating factors.

[mattm]

The problem muddy is that you and your friend are the exception not the rule.  We have way to many people in prison.  Which would not be a bad thing if we were providing prisoners a way to better themselves.  It is no coincidence that your friend made it.  He got an education.  Most people who do don't repeat.  Unfortunately education(college) and job training is only an option to a very small percentage of inmates.  So you have a bunch of criminals being released that don't have money, a place to live and are less qualified for a job than when they entered the system due to having prison on their record.

[Tin]

Here in the Detroit area, it seems a week doesn't go by without hearing on the news about somebody who has just been released from prison committing another serious crime.

I agree, something needs to be done.

Falcon

x2 It's become a common thing on the news lately and is quite a disturbing trend. Here is one of just a ton of examples...http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=12013

But at the same time there you don't hear stories like muddy's on the news. All you really hear is the bad. So how many prisoners are changing for the good? Any statistics out there???

[Glenn]

The problem muddy is that you and your friend are the exception not the rule.

I don't believe that to be the case.  I think there's more ex-cons who have successfully reformed than people realize, but often they struggle to "fit in" because society won't let them.  But that's not "newsworthy". It's the ones that reoffend that get the publicity, because it's "shocking", "disturbing", etc.  That's what sells newspapers.  So if that's all you hear about, then you're led to believe the problem is larger than it really is.  Plus, you're less apt to "give a convict a break" if you're afraid they'll re-offend.

It's become a common thing on the news lately and is quite a disturbing trend.

Case in point.

That said, there's always room for improvement.

[Guest muddy]

The problem muddy is that you and your friend are the exception not the rule. We have way to many people in prison. Which would not be a bad thing if we were providing prisoners a way to better themselves. It is no coincidence that your friend made it. He got an education. Most people who do don't repeat. Unfortunately education(college) and job training is only an option to a very small percentage of inmates. So you have a bunch of criminals being released that don't have money, a place to live and are less qualified for a job than when they entered the system due to having prison on their record.

We are not the exception. Look at the other side of the coin. I have sat in many mangement meetings on my job, frequently they plug for us to vote for a certain politician IN EVERY CASE/REGARDLESS OF PARTY AFFILIATION they support the candiates who are for mandatory and lengthy sentences. Many collegues working for other companies have the same experience. I am not talking about Murder and child molestors. Let me give you a case. THE NYS ROCKEFELLER LAW. Has mandatroy sentences for drug laws. Let's say a guy who has just started to get deep into a heroin addiction, is buying a bundle at a time( 10 bags) , he is doing this while still"Functioning" he has a job and does not want to take the chance of being arrested or found out. One day he gets collared and they find the bundle. If the officer writes it up as simple possesion , he can get a lighter sentence and be mandated to a drug rehab. If the officer, thinks he was dealing, because he has 10 individual packages, and books him for possesion with the intent to distribbute, he's done. He gets sevral years, not negotiable when he goes to court. These are the gray areas, etiehr way he strgitens up, he was still working so he hadnt dne much harm to anyone but himself and his family, why shouldnt he get a shot at rehab, strucurted probation and a chance to re enter society. IT HAPPENS EVERY DAY with sucess but THE FAILURES DO OUTNUMBER THEM AND THEY DO GET ALL THE TV TIME!

[Tin]

I think there's more ex-cons who have successfully reformed than people realize, but often they struggle to "fit in" because society won't let them. But that's not "newsworthy". It's the ones that reoffend that get the publicity, because it's "shocking", "disturbing", etc. That's what sells newspapers. So if that's all you hear about, then you're led to believe the problem is larger than it really is. Plus, you're less apt to "give a convict a break" if you're afraid they'll re-offend.

Once someone has that name "convict" people will stereotype and automatically assume the worst. And once someone has that title it is very hard to break, so it will be hard for them to be able to get back into society and "fit-in" or even get a job. Some may see an ex-con as a changed person while others will always see them as a con.

[slomoe]

The problem muddy is that you and your friend are the exception not the rule.

I don't believe that to be the case. I think there's more ex-cons who have successfully reformed than people realize, but often they struggle to "fit in" because society won't let them. But that's not "newsworthy". It's the ones that reoffend that get the publicity, because it's "shocking", "disturbing", etc. That's what sells newspapers. So if that's all you hear about, then you're led to believe the problem is larger than it really is. Plus, you're less apt to "give a convict a break" if you're afraid they'll re-offend.

It's become a common thing on the news lately and is quite a disturbing trend.

Case in point.

That said, there's always room for improvement.

Thank you Glenn for being such an open minded guy. The media is VERY powerful, and many don't see what should be seen.

[mattm]

THE FAILURES DO OUTNUMBER THEM AND THEY DO GET ALL THE TV TIME!

Thats why i'm saying the exception not the rule.  I'm not  at all saying people don't deserve a second chance.  Anyone can make mistakes.  In college I drove after drinking a lot.  Only by shear luck did I, and most of us, not kill someone and end up a felon.  Glenn you are absolutely right that more people reform than we realize b/c thats not what gets covered.  However, I think the statistics would bear out that most people who end up in prison(not jail) get in trouble with the law again.

[Guest muddy]

Agreed Mattm; I guess the main points that I am trying to get across is;

1. some people manipulate politicians etc.. to encourage long prison stays, as a business decison

2. A lot of the systems place are either ineffective, and non-serious cons can manipulate those OR the systmes make it very hard for a guy to reenter who is serious about changing his life

PS : Did you fellas know that Prison is actually a growth industry and that there are more Americans by # and % of population than any time in history

[flechero]

Muddy,

My observations are pointed at the many people released that have NOT been hepled or rehabilitated. The news only reports the "news worthy stuff" but that doesn't change the high numbers of repeat offenders. Even if the percentages are low, the number is still shockingly high. My observations were only intended at VIOLENT, SEXUAL and CHILDRENS related criminals.

You and your friend are a perfect example of a guys who paid his debt to society and should move on into society.

Why did you bring religion into this thread?

[Guest muddy]

No they are kids born into poverty and to gang member parents. Many of us have dedicated out lives to help them learn how to change. SO maybe they wouldn't need to go to prision; It will not get me a lot of money, but my soul feels good every night when I hit the pillow.

The fellow with the heroin, was me . I was self emplyed and thank Go dI couldnt drive at the time. I did not learn my lesson when the officer was kind enough to write it upp as simple possesion. I went on until I was homeless. We met years after i got clean, at a Police Athletic League Function, he was grateful that I was able to get clean, I apologized to him for all the times I put the community he was detailed in danger and the risk I put him in. He was humble enough and good enough to forgive me. In turn he funneled kids to us that needed help. Thats more than I could ever imagine getting from you. I am going to listen to thiose closest to me and stop responding to you, in the end we will both have to answer to God, I hope his mercy is better than yours, and mine also because I have none in my heart here either, and thats a defect I have to work on

PS I have over 120 college credits I paid for every one of them or the company I work for pays for them I am 2 courses from gradutaion. The Optician friend of mine belongs to a loosely knit group of ex cons who helps people get their first month rent together and anything else they may need when they get out and are trying ti get things together, it his their way of showing some gratitude for what the state did for them, even though they did not deserve it>>>Blind judgement is a very hollow experieince

I WILL DEFEND THESE FELLAS ALL MORNING AND ALL NIGHT I WILL HELP AND DEFEND THEM FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE

[Glenn]

Fletch - If your intent was to get the last word in, congratulations.

You also succeeded at throwing in a jab intented to hurt another, which means you just succeeded in fulfilling the very stereotype you're trying to defend. Congratulations.

[Guest muddy]

Hey Glenn: I will not go back and forth any more, you have my word.While I do not belive in the bible I do love and care about many people who are Christians, Zel and Alpster right here, and a great Catholic Priest named Father Puglisi, from Brooklyn , without their help and support my life would not be as full as it is today. There are many people of all spiritual walks that have enriched my life and I have learned a little from each of them    WHERES MY FISHING ROD>>>>>>>> 8-)

[Cajun1977]

not trying to stir the pot ,but i believe in if your gonna do the crime then you should do the time. If someone rehabs their self then thats great but if someone does it again where do you draw a line? ive known people to do both and ive had a person very close to me stealing from me, well he got help after he did his time and a year later he shot someone over a wallet. So i really have no pity for those who want to ruin their lives but i do have respect for those who change their lives not who try and change.

[grimlin]

Here's my take,my girl's cousin was in and out of prison for thief. Saying he straighten up his life trying to get back on his feets.Well i hired him to fix our floor he told me the cost of material and i gave him the money.Needless to say i overpaid $800 as i found out he was getting the cheapest stuff he could find instead of getting us the stuff he said he would.I got ripped off hardcore...i even paid him $300 for the job on top of that.Ouch.....

Do i believe in second chances i sure do....but my story has me thinking otherwise "once a criminal always a criminal"(so i'm caution about people big times).I grew up in south oak cliff a poor subdivision in Dallas,Texas.I turned out just fine.I thank God i had his guidance.Not all Christians are bad.So i don't believe if you grew up poor you will have problems in life.That's just BS and blaming it on something else or how you grew up other than taking responsibility for your own actions.

Nowadays you have to be caution of people and having a record makes it harder for me to trust somebody.Sometimes you have to think and put somebody else in your shoe or vice versa.

[preach4bass]

Grimlin, I read the first six words of your post and I knew your situation was headed south (and fast).  Any story that has the words "my girl's cousin" is going to end up being about a prison experience. ;D

[grimlin]

Grimlin, I read the first six words of your post and I knew your situation was headed south (and fast).  Any story that has the words "my girl's cousin" is going to end up being about a prison experience. ;D

Yeah,people said i should have know better.I guess i just wanted to believe there was some good in him.Guess i was wrong.Regardless if it was somebody else i'd do it again...just a little differently though.I still believe in second chances,but screw that up then i expect them to just stay the heck away....and i mean far,far away.I give muddy alot of credit for dealing with these kids,because i wouldn't have the patience.