what Glenn posted on Houston thread makes sense

[Guest the_muddy_man]

Hey Fellas: Been looking at the Jimmy Houston thread and the Vick Thread, not to mention the Steroid problem in Baseball;

Why are we so unforgiving as a society? I am repulsed to the max by what Vick admitted to doing. He will plea out on Monday and serve his sentence. Which is a lot more than some of the baseball guys are doing, with the exception of Giambi.

What is the motive for rehabillitation and paying your debt to society if that socuiety is unwilling to let you show you have done so and can contribute to that sociey. I ain't perfect in this area and constantly have to check myself to

Why would a thief, stop stealin; why would a drunk sober up: why would an addict get celan: If they knew they were permantly locked out once their debt was paid to society?

I HAVE WORKED WITH COUNTLESS EX CONS, I AM A RECOVERING ADDICT MY SELF. i CAN'T TELL YOU THE HOPLESSNESS OF TRYING TO FIND A JOB WHEN YOU COME OUT. THIS, I ACCEPT, IS PART OF THE CONSEQUENCES TO BE PAID. BUT MANY DO COME BACK AND CONTRIBUTE IN HUGE WAYS.

FINALLY CELEBRITIES SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN SPECIAL ACCOMADATIONS BUT THEY SHOULDNT BE GIVEN SPECIAL CONDEMNATIONS EITHER.

MY.02

[Catt]

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

[Guest the_muddy_man]

I deleted part of my post and removed a quote as not to turn this into something I didnt mean.

[Zel]

Just a fact of life somethimes. Opinions are like addictions... everybody seems to have one. And being in the public eye, paid lots of money, and required to be role models, athletes go under a much stricter scrutiny than most.

[BadKarma42]

Why are we so unforgiving as a society? I am repulsed to the max by what Vick admitted to doing. He will plea out on Monday and serve his sentence. Which is a lot more than some of the baseball guys are doing, with the exception of Giambi.

What is the motive for rehabillitation and paying your debt to society if that socuiety is unwilling to let you show you have done so and can contribute to that sociey. I ain't perfect in this area and constantly have to check myself to

Why would a thief, stop stealin; why would a drunk sober up: why would an addict get celan: If they knew they were permantly locked out once their debt was paid to society?

I HAVE WORKED WITH COUNTLESS EX CONS, I AM A RECOVERING ADDICT MY SELF. i CAN'T TELL YOU THE HOPLESSNESS OF TRYING TO FIND A JOB WHEN YOU COME OUT. THIS, I ACCEPT, IS PART OF THE CONSEQUENCES TO BE PAID. BUT MANY DO COME BACK AND CONTRIBUTE IN HUGE WAYS.

FINALLY CELEBRITIES SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN SPECIAL ACCOMADATIONS BUT THEY SHOULDNT BE GIVEN SPECIAL CONDEMNATIONS EITHER.

MY.02

On the other side of the coin, I think as a Country we very forgiving, especially when dealing with celebs.  People seem to just want someone to come forward and admit to what they have done, acknowledge they were wrong, and then show actions to back up the apology.

Consider this, Vick denied any invovlement and wrongdoing from the time the story leaked.  He lied to his boss and the guy that runs the organization that helped him become reach (of course, I can understand that he was likely advised by his legal team with regards to this).  Now take a look at the way he walked into court originally.  They way he carried himself, the way he walked, the look on his face.  As person who deals with criminals on a daly basis I find that body language can be very valuable.

Now, if you pay attention to the news, a majority of people I am listening to on the news have said the same thing:  he needs to come clean to the public, admit what he did, admit that it was terribly wrong, state how he is going to change as a result of this, serve his time, and then be a model citizen.  Likely, when he gets out, people will have forgotten about this until its time to be paroled and then the media will be on him again for a brief period of time.  If he walks the right path, the story goes away.  If he goes down the wrong path, back in the news.

Will he have to work harder to prove that he has changed?  Yes.  

Will this always be assosciated with him?  Yes.  

Is that fair?  Maybe not.

Is that reality?  Yes.

Since this is reality, I personally don't accept someone telling me that they are being held back because of their past.  I attempt to re-frame their reality by motivating them to back up their words that they want to do better and showing that they can overcome the obstacles that they created for themselves.

[Guest the_muddy_man]

I have a very close friend. He did a state bid for a non-violent string of burglaries. During his jail time he went to school and became an optomitrist. He helped the state save a lot of money and helped with seting up various eye clinics in the various state sites. When released and with considerable clean time( He like me is clean over 15 years) , was denied a licience to practice on the outside. He fought it in court, and the decision was rervrsed and a new law was put on the books.

He operates his own store but really gives back to working people, who don't qualify for assitance , i have seen him dispense more than one pair of glasses for less they he paid for them

If this guy wasn't allowed to come back into society, where would this community be without him. Where would I go, if i wasn't allowed back in.I know my actions made it hard , I accept that as a consequence of my actions BUT WHEN IS ENOUGH <ENOUGH?

 I have seen the failures, upon release I  have seen guys relapse and start the same crap over and over again. But i have also seen many sucess stories and most were and are given a much harder time than is called for.

[justfishin]

Without going into things I have no control over, such as the Vick case, allow me to say this. Muddy, you have opened up some of your past to us, you did not tell us all but, I can paint the picture, and I am sure that you getting from that point in life to this, was not a easy task, to say the least. I think you set a fine example of how people can grow and change. Fine job.

 Let me interject something here for the young guys. Don't get caught up in all the crap out there. Use your freakin heads young ones. Guys like Muddy are role models to look up to. You have choices.

[BadKarma42]

It sounds like your friend made a decision to change his ways and give back to the society that he harmed.

I too have worked with people who don't seem to get it and people who appear to be doing the right but struggle due to their record (ie background checks, stigma).

Some people get it, some don't, some take a while to get it.

Unless sentenced to serve the maximum penalty (and have no misconducts in jail/prison), people do get out...on parole.  Parole is essentially an agreement between the court and the offender:  you follow our rules and be responsible and you get to serve the rest of the time on the street.  If you chose not to follow the rules, you serve the time in jail/prison.

I think you have some good points in principle.  However, I think reality is different (not to imply that you are out of touch with reality!).

I can speak for my County and we are currently being pushed to keep as many people out of jail as much as we can.  Do I agree with it?  No.  I have done a lot to keep people out of jail.  Now I just have to be more creative.  Some people it benefits and some it does not.

[Guest the_muddy_man]

Somewhere in all these ideas there are solutions Thank you Gentlemen

[Low_Budget_Hooker]

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Great,....MORE math.  ;D

[flechero]

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Great,....MORE math. ;D

I'm just glad it wasn't deleted.  There is an awful lot of wisdon in that Book- the one we can't talk about.  

Catt,

I've noticed a few responses from you with "that sort of wisdom" referenced.  Just wanted to say I appreciate it.  

Keith

[MitchIsFishin]

Muddy, It's called Life. Neither right or wrong, good or bad, righteous or evil, yet it encapsulates all of it, it's the surmounting issue of all who are here: Life. Some are good, some are bad. Life isn't fair, never has been, never will be. Why do many corporate crooks make away with their millions? Why do children die of diseases they can't even pronounce? The faster people realize what life is & what you are here for, the better. I'm still trying to figure the last one out. It sure wasn't to become a pro fisherman! Keep at man, we love you for it.  

[PaparockArk]

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Jesus forgave the sins of the man that was repentant on a cross next to him at the Crucifixion and said that very day would he be with him in paradise however although Christ had the power to set that man free from his fate on that cross Jesus allowed him to suffer the consequences of his actions and die upon that cross. Sometimes people confuse forgiveness with not holding others accountable for their actions. In all things there must be balance.

[Fisher of Men]

Excellent point Paparock!  Another analogy is if you were violating a cardinal rule of safety (in a sport, on the job, etc.) and break a bone, it will soon heal back to normal.  Needless to say the recovery process might be painful.  There are still consequences to our actions (breaking that safety rule).  Even though things can be made right, those consequences can be painful, too.  

[Glenn]

Easy fellas.  Let's keep in mind the rule regarding religious/political posts. I would really hate to have to edit/delete things here, so let's not go there.

[cart7t]

I've got no problem with Jimmy Houston.  He may or may not have been aware of what went on with that hunting incidents.  He realized the mistake and worked to make it right.

Those that continue to post those video links up are irresponsible to say the least.  They're basically dredging old video up and posting links to it on a public forum without bothering to check on the outcome of this particular incident.  

As for Vick, Bonds, Sosa, McGuire, etc.

Had any of those ever admitted to making mistakes or wrong doing and then working towards not letting it happen again along with setting an example that would help others from making the same mistakes, I'd have absolutely no problem forgiving them.  Sorry, I'm from a generation where a man admitted his mistakes, apologized and moved to make wrongs right.  That's apparently sadly lacking in todays America.  

As it is, those guys cling to innocence and have a catch me if you can attitude all to hold onto the ability to continue to cash out on their public notoriety.  

[Guest the_muddy_man]

CART7 wrote:"

 

 

As for Vick, Bonds, Sosa, McGuire, etc.

Had any of those ever admitted to making mistakes or wrong doing and then working towards not letting it happen again along with setting an example that would help others from making the same mistakes, I'd have absolutely no problem forgiving them.  Sorry, I'm from a generation where a man admitted his mistakes, apologized and moved to make wrongs right.  That's apparently sadly lacking in todays America

THATS HUGE!!!!!!!!!!  AGREE 100%   Muddy

[roadwarrior]

Well, there's "I'm sorry."

And then there's "I'm sorry I got caught."

It makes a big difference to me.

[llPa1nll]

Well I may not make any friends here but this is my opinion. Like most celebrities, when caught in the wrong they and their publicists come out and lie/deny any wrong doing. This happens so often and so many times that I think people become desensitized to these types of things. It takes a person with allot of character and courage to face upto to his wrong doings and try to right them.

In the case of Jimmy Huston, I for one had never seen or heard of that video or the story behind it. Kudos to Jimmy for righting what was wrong. On the Vick issue what he did was horrid, but to lie too fans(some of them kids), friends, boss, and coworkers, then come out with the truth. Dont forget people this was NOT the first time this person lied to people when the truth came out and he denied/lied about it. The "Ron Mexico" escapades, or the Water Bottle incident. This is just the latest in a string of poor judgments from him.

Now how many times do you turn the other cheek? How many times do you give some one the benefit of the doubt, only too revert back to their own bad decisions? My mother was hit by a drunk driver. She has had numerous surgeries on her legs so she would be able to walk again with no pain (unsuccessfully). She was an elementary school teacher at the time, she was on her way home 2 cars behind a school bus filled with elementary school children, 3:30pm in the afternoon. This drunk driver pulled out to pass and then had to veer back in and hit my mothers car. The EMS at the scene were more concerned with how drunk he was rather than his injuries sustained in the accident. This idiot had 4 DUI convictions in Massachusetts and 3 in New Hampshire prior to my moms accident.

I agree with Muddy to give someone help who needs it. The other side to that is at what time do these people take a stand and make some hard decisions on their course in life. These are adults here not little kids. When do these people become responsible for their own actions, and the consequences that they bring?

[roadwarrior]

Toby Keith and Willie Nelson have a little tune that sums it up:

http://www.lyrics007.com/Toby%20Keith%20Lyrics/Whiskey%20For%20My%20Men,%20Beer%20For%20My%20Horses%20Lyrics.html

[justfishin]

I was not going to get on this thread but, I agree with RW. There is a difference between " I am sorry " and " I am sorry I got caught ". On the news this evening, he was reported as commenting that he was sorry for his lack of judgement. Never mind saying he was sorry about his mistreatment of the dogs. I just don't understand people like him at all.

[fishbear]

Toby Keith and Willie Nelson have a little tune that sums it up:

http://www.lyrics007.com/Toby%20Keith%20Lyrics/Whiskey%20For%20My%20Men,%20Beer%20For%20My%20Horses%20Lyrics.html

or how about Charlie Daniels - Simple Man.

As I read this post, I found I agree with just about everyone.  However, until WE as a society, stand up and let these superstars, celebs, politicians, etc.... know and understand that we are not going to play nice just because of who they are or how much money they have, this type of behavior will continue.

It just plain chaps my hide to see a CEO of a major corporation go to a country club prison, because he has money.....   He needs to be in a regular prison just like everyone else..  No special privileges, no special visitations, just time to serve.

On taking responsibility for your actions,, hmmmmmm where do I start...   Kids are taught at an early age, oh its not your fault, it is societies fault or the schools fault, or the governments fault.

Heck, you can't even have a scoreboard and a winner and loser in most kids sports anymore, dont want to upset the little ones, give them a complex.

This goes a lot deeper than Vick, or Bonds, or anyone else... but the road back starts with each and every one of us.

Sorry, will step off the soapbox, next please? :