George S Patton's New Speech-Iraq & modern world

[Catt]

Check this one out but beware of the language  

[FishingBuds]

Yep wish we had leaders like that again

He Hits it on the nail 8-)

[justfishin]

IMO, George Patton was a egotistical, rogue, loose cannon whom got a lot of innocent people killed because of his crazy self serving decisions. The president recognized that and took care of that nutball. I never understood why anyone looked up to that man. He was very dangerous. Just my opinion.

                                   http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWpatton.htm

[Raul]

Achilles was considered to be the greatest warrior that this planet had ever seen in it 's existance, even though the historic figure of Achilles and his Mirmidons is questionable ( there 's no proof of thei existance ) Homer inmortalized his name and described his character in the Iliad.

Was this man a good politician ? well not really, the only policy he understood was the use of brute force and the narrow vision of what 's honorable.

Was this man loyal ? to a certain point, his allegiance varied greatly upon his mood.

Was this man a good warrior ? the greatest warrior ever lived.

King Agamennom had Achilles serving in his army and he knew he had the best warrior ever, entire armies surrended just because Achilles was there and they knew they were going to loose if King Agamennom "unleashed" Achilles.

Who was the general the germans feared the most during WWII ? Bradley ? nope, Eisenhower ? nope, Montgomery ? nope, it was Patton who they feared the most but his big mouth and his lack of respect to the chain of command always put him in trouble, he was demoted several times and he was also punished several times because he couldn 't keep his big mouth shut.

As an analogy Patton is kind of our modern day Achilles, a great warrior that has to be kept leashed and muzzled at all times only to be used when his ability to win battles are needed to be put under lead and muzzle once the battle is over.

[justfishin]

Hmmm, you pointed out some interesting things Raul. I guess from that perpective, you are right. I still think he was a loose cannon but, in the time and considering the situation, maybe he was right for the job, who knows? Maybe a crazy bast*** like him filled a niche for the time.

[Raul]

Have you read the Iliad and the Odissey JF ?

After the initial battle at the fields that surround Troy was won by the Greeks it became time to surrender the city by siege, Agamennom wasn 't there to revenge the kidnapping of his sister in law Helen ( spouse of Agamennom 's brother, Menelaus King of Sparta ) he was there to capture the city and surrender it 's population to the dominion and incorporate it to the influence of Athens. Agamennom made a bad move trying to win the war with one blow and the Trojans defeated them so the greeks had to retreat to the beaches where they landed, by that time Agamennom and Achilles weren 't exactly in good terms and Achilles didn 't participate in that battle.

Obviously after brilliantly winning the first fight getting defeated at the very walls of the city you are trying to conquer demoralizes any army. In a discussion between Odisseus ( King of Ithaca and member of the Greek coalition against Troy ) he questioned the terms in which Achilles and Agamennom were, Agamennom replied that Achilles was unrulabe and he did pretty much what he pleased, to which Odisseus replied that he didn 't care if Achilles was unrulable and did what he pleased all he cared about was Achilles ' ability to heighten up the moral of the soldiers, mount a coherent offensive and to win battles.

If you don 't want to read the Iliad because it 's such a thick book ( and sometimes boring ) you can watch the movie TROY, shortened, cut, pasted, edited and glamorized but it 's not that far from what the Iliad describes.

Another historic figure that fits the Pattonesque behavior is another great warrior, Curtis E.LeMay, if JFK didn 't keep him on a tight leash during the Cuban Missile Crisis we would have returned to the stone age, this man put several times the uneasy truece between the US ( and it 's allies ) and the Soviet Union in jeopardy, JFK had the club [ LeMay and the SAC ], he warned the Soviets that if they didn 't remove their missiles he would use the club ( unleash his Achilles ) and the Soviets stood down.

[justfishin]

Thanks for the enlightenment Raul. Interesting stuff. Although, I read way too much as it is, I do want to read about the Cuban Missle Crisis and Curtis LeMays involvement. I will also watch " Troy ". You have invoked a interest that I have to feed. I guess I should do more research before I make a statement. I guess there is a place in warfare for guys like Patton, although, I stand by my statement of him being a loose cannon. You sustained that statement but, filled in the blanks for me of why they kept him around. I guess every war had its larger than life men whom were needed for the time and thought outside the box. Patton, Swarztkoff, Marshall, MacArthur, etc. None of these men were popular with their bosses and seemed to butt heads a lot but, they filled the niche for the situation at the time. Thanks for the interesting information.

[Guest avid]

I can't say that I agreed with everything in this creative adaptation of the Hollywood movie,  I never supported going into Iraq, and continue to believe it was a strategic mistake in the war on terror.   I truly admire the brave troops who are doing their duty and wish them all success and safety.

But this much is true.  We are at war, and we are complacent.

I don't care if Patton was egotistical, pompous, profane, and delusional.

He was an aggressive general who won battles.   Mark Clark, his superior, was hesitant, and overly cautious, at Anzio and Cassino.   Thousands of casualties resulted from his inept command.

I'll take a Patton any day.

[Root beer]

Patton may have been all of those things from what I've read, but like avid said I'd take patton any day.

The man had experience, he was smart, aggreesive and knew how to win. He refused to surrender he kept his men in line to keep pushing. If patton wasn't like that..we'd be speaking german.

[Raul]

Yes Kew, but if it were for Patton the WWII would have never ended when it did, he insisted to continue the war but now instead of Germany as the enemy it would have been the Soviet Union, with it 's monstrous manpower, completely unreacheable factories, massive oil fields and natural resources behind the Ural mountains. Besides that, the war against Japan wasn 't over yet so listening him talk about continuing the war now against the Soviet Union it must have sounded to Truman 's ears like listening to a lunatic.

There 's no doubt that the man was an outstanding warrior, a great leader of armies, he had the skill, he had the knowledge of the art of war, he had the historical knowldge, he was in the right time in the place but by no means he was a good politician nor economist. Wars are fought not only with guns, bullets, guts and blood.

[Guest avid]

Yes Kew, but if it were for Patton the WWII would have never ended when it did, he insisted to continue the war but now instead of Germany as the enemy it would have been the Soviet Union, with it 's monstrous manpower, completely unreacheable factories, massive oil fields and natural resources behind the Ural mountains. Besides that, the war against Japan wasn 't over yet so listening him talk about continuing the war now against the Soviet Union it must have sounded to Truman 's ears like listening to a lunatic.

There 's no doubt that the man was an outstanding warrior, a great leader of armies, he had the skill, he had the knowledge of the art of war, he had the historical knowldge, he was in the right time in the place but by no means he was a good politician nor economist. Wars are fought not only with guns, bullets, guts and blood.

Raul, In each of your posts you have made an excellent case for the necessary if sometimes dubious wisdom of having civilian control over the military. Let's not forget McArthur wanting to Nuke China during the Korean war.

There are examples of the civilian control being a huge blunder (The on again/ off again bombing of N. VietNam, and rufusal to  permit  the destruction of the strategic N. Viet ports, to name just a few, were huge and costly blunders)

but ultimately it is the young men and now women of a nation who are required to fight and die in the war started by those to old too old to serve.  They have the right to be ordered to war by folks they and their families had the chance to elect.