My Thoughts On Animal Killing Posts!

[Valascus]

I am going to take time to air out my views on a disturbing trend I have noticed on this site regarding animals such as snakes, snapping turtles, or other such animals that are "hated".

Those of you who feel it necessary to "dispose of" these animals based on your hatred for them sicken me. Why do you "hate" them? They have done nothing to you at all. I am no tree huggin' hippy here, but I am pretty sure none of these animals that have ever been posted here as being killed by some ignorant outdoorsman did a thing to deserve their fates. I am pretty certain that none of these animals start their day thinking, "Gee, I think I'd like to go bite an unsuspecting human today." These animals are not malicious towards humans in any way, shape, or form. Those of you who feel the need to dispose of these animals are based on two things and two things only: 1) FEAR and 2)IGNORANCE. I am not saying it is wrong to be afraid of such animals as that is a common human reaction, but killing these animals who are an essential part of their ecosystems and doing nothing more but living their lives in their HOMES because of your fear is wrong...PERIOD! Let's get another thing straight here too...YOU are in that animals home. That animal has more right (in my eyes) to be there than you do. Being able to enjoy nature in all it's glory is a PRIVILEGE! So to all of you who feel the need dispose of these animals, please...I BEG YOU...take the time to research these animals to learn their important roles in mother nature before you un-necessarily harm them.

A note to the moderators of this site. Please know that this thread was not created in order to cause trouble. I simply wish for everyone to enjoy the outdoors resepctfully with care and knowledge of it. If this thread is deemed to be too inflammatory, then I apologize for it, and ask that it be removed. Thank you for your time and for upkeeping this great site.

[rdneckhntr]

dont like it dont read it...

[Valascus]

dont like it dont read it...

I agree! I usually do not read them as it does get me fired up, but I have noticed more popping up as of late. I respect everyone's right to post what they wish and my right to read it or not read it as that is indeed the very basis of our first amendment right. I just felt it necessary to post my thoughts on the matter.  

I just want to clarify one thing. I don't mind posts regarding a sucessful hunting trip or anything like that. Just posts concernign the killing of an animal "just because" bothers me. I am not trying to get under the skin of any hunters here.  

[mattm]

I just think it is to touchy of a subject and your never going to get anyone to agree.  For instance I have no disdain for deer hunters.  I used to do it myself.  I quit b/c I once shot a very nice buck from about 275 yards.  He never knew I was there.  Was thinking of that trip one day and said this is just to easy, and not at all fair. It is my opinion that anyone who is a decent shot is not going to miss a deer with a high powered scope that is less than 150 yards away. However, if I ever take the time to learn to shoot a bow I may take the sport back up.  I do still dove hunt b/c I feel this is a challenge.  Those are some fast deceptive birds.

I don't think there was any reason for that turtle to be shot in the other post.  I know what i'm about to say will offend some so please just listen to my reasoning and respect it just as I will respect your position to do the opposite of me.  A few posts back I posted a picture of a dead copperhead.  I did not kill this particular snake, but would of if I had come across it.  I do not kill any snake I see unless i'm 100% sure that it is venomous.  I'm sure venomous snakes have there place and don't seek out humans to bite.  However, they do occasionally, and usually b/c of human error, bite humans.  I'm sorry but I value a humans life and quality of life more than a venomous snakes.  I have no idea what  a water mosacin or cottonmouth looks like and as  a result have probably let many of them pass.  If I do ever learn to id these snakes I will kill them in good conscience(sp).  That is the only way that I can be absolutley sure that it will not one day bite a young child that is being uproperly supervised somewhere.  I think the idea that some have on here about not killing any snakes is noble and I can respect your love for nature.  I just have a slightly different view.  I will appreciate the non venomous snakes until the cows come home.

John, please don't take my turtle comments as an attack on you.  Growing up in the country and being an uneducated young man I killed many things that I am ashamed of now.  Just live and learn.  

[John J.]

No longer am I taking any negative posts as an attack. As far as I am concerned, the thread (on the turtle) is completely ruined and there will no longer be any need for anymore discussion. Valascus, I do respect everyone's respect for nature, I enjoy and respect nature myself. But for one to tell me that I do not respect nature is a judgement. Nobody on this forum knows anyone completely (well only a few people do), there is no need to pass judgement on a certain incident.

Matt, I do not take offense. However, I stated many times my reasoning for that turtle for being shot; Fear of injury, loss of fish, overpopulation. That turtle was something in the pond that my folks didn't want, they own the land and they own the pond, so I did them the favor.

Just as any other teenager in the world, I am still learning from my mistakes, my decisions and life. I understand that everyone makes mistakes, it doesn't matter if they are just born or they are 110 years old. EVERYONE makes mistakes, and I know that.

Hopefully everyone will understand my reasoning and respect it. But for those of you who won't, then don't make the matters worse, instead keep it to yourself. If you disagree with what I did, that's fine. But don't blow up in my face and tell me otherwise. I've heard many preaching today, I don't need anymore.

Everyone have a good day! 8-)

[Glenn]

Valascus - it seems to me you're equating mistakes - due to lack of experience/education - with hatred.  It also seems to me that those who made those mistakes learned from them, both from your own educational posts as well as others. If the actions stemmed from "hatred", then there wouldn't have been any learning at all.  Instead, the killing would have continued dispite it all.

Making emotional judgements, assumptions, and accusations, and then angrily denouncing the person you view through that filter isn't helpful when it comes to these mistakes.  Kind education will go a lot further.  And the only way to do that is take a look at your own emotions and channel that energy into a positive influence on the person who made the mistake so that they can learn from it and never do it again.

[Valascus]

Valascus - it seems to me you're equating mistakes - due to lack of experience/education - with hatred. It also seems to me that those who made those mistakes learned from them, both from your own educational posts as well as others. If the actions stemmed from "hatred", then there wouldn't have been any learning at all. Instead, the killing would have continued dispite it all.

Making emotional judgements, assumptions, and accusations, and then angrily denouncing the person you view through that filter isn't helpful when it comes to these mistakes. Kind education will go a lot further. And the only way to do that is take a look at your own emotions and channel that energy into a positive influence on the person who made the mistake so that they can learn from it and never do it again.

Earlier on I was very fired up about the post concerning the turtle. I probably was aggressive in my post, which for that I will apologize for to John J. and to everyone else who my tone may have offended. However, I do still very passionately disagree with the reasoning behind some of these posts. It seems to me fairly often I see a rationale of "I hate (insert animal here)!! I kill them when I come across them!" I understand that this was not the instance with John J. I am sure if he came across a snapping turtle away from his parents property, he would not harm it. I am not one of those PETA freaks who just run around screaming about us trampling animal rights and yada yada yada. But I just want people to understand their effects on an ecosystem. When it all boils down to it, I want people to be educated about not only the environment that should get out and enjoy, but also it's inhabitants and their impact that could be had from their actions be they good or bad. Usually I refrain from beginning conversations such as this or voiceing my thoughts on the subject due to the fact that it is a hot button topic for many folks. However, I feel that all of us as outdoorsman have a duty to be educated, respectful, and should have the desire to leave the environment we have had the privilege to enjoy in better shape than when we arrived that day. This does not ony involve having a "live and let live" approach with it's inhabitants but also other things such as not littering or picking up existing litter, and educating your fellow outdoorsman as I try to here...just not in the poor manner in which I chose to do so. Again...I apologize for my ill conceived rant in the other thread concerning the turtle.

[flechero]

Valascus,

I see what you mean, but please realize that neither you or I know what the situation is with regard to the laws of all states and individual waters. I share your feeling of disgust for needlesss killing. But, he could be within the law and overrun with turtles that are destroying the pond. Just as some fish are designated as appropriate to "take" so are other animals.

And many people do not stop and realize that most farm ponds are not natural, they are dug for cattle and fish... and as such, may need to be managed differently than naturally occuring water.

please...I BEG YOU...take the time to research these animals to learn their important roles in mother nature before you un-necessarily harm them.

And if they are out of control, overpopulated or otherwise endangering the very balance of nature, are you in suport of their removal?

mattm,

Please don't take this as an attack on you...

hunting a certain bird or animal because it's a challenging shot is no better than killing ruthlessly... you could go to a skeet/trap/rifle range for the sporting shot... people who hunt, withing the law, need no justification.

Should I be ashamed that I am a good shot with a rifle and can shoot a deer or other animal at long range? NO SIR. The fact that I am handy with a shotgun means nothing, other than I buy less shells than you when dove hunting. If a deer presents a good shot at XXX yds., should I pass it up since I know I can make the shot? The real truth is that taking a "challenging shot" is LESS ethical since there is a better chance of a wound, mame or miss. And yes, most of my deer hunting is with a traditional bow, a weapon I practice and shoot year round and still limit distances on live game to about 15 yds. Why? Because even at "gimme" distances, things can go wrong, and on occasionally do. But the responsible hunter takes shots that are 100% in his mind.. thus greatly reducing any chance of a screw up.

Shooting snakes just because you think "venomous snakes" need to be shot is as rediculous as killing any other animal and letting it lie. Venomous snakes are as important to the ecosystem as any other creature, regardless of what you may think. Mother nature has them there for a reason, even if you don't understand it. Just like spiders, mosquitos, ticks and other "nusiance" creatures... thay all have a purpose, like it or not.

Sorry for the rant,

Keith

[Valascus]

"And if they are out of control, overpopulated or otherwise endangering the very balance of nature, are you in suport of their removal?"

Very much so. If the local authorities such as the State Department of Natural resources deem a species as overpopulated to the point that it will start to negatively effect the balance of an ecosystem I am all for bringing the species into balance with the ecosystem by means of controlled culling of the population. I think there is a thread concerning blackbirds in that very light somewhere on the boards.

As I stated before...there are only three reasons I can see for killing an animal. 1) I am gonna eat it. 2) It is getting ready to do severe harm to me and I have no other option but to defend myself. (Most of the time I will just try to drive it off) 3)If the State DNR states that the animal is causing a problem with the environment due to overpopulation and needs to be culled.

One of the best places to go to educate oneself regarding the species that may be in question is your state's Department of Natural Resources or Conservation website. More often than not there is very valuable and highly educational information there regarding almost any species one could come in contact with while outdoors. They also usually have nformation regarding any species that are causing issues that are affecting the ecosystem and information on how the public can help the situation in a controlled manner.  

[John J.]

Valascus, I accept your apology. And no indeed I would not hurt any animal outside just because I can. Everyone has a right to post their opinions, and indeed you did so.

My pond was dug for the purpose of fish and sometimes swimming. I would certainly hate to swim in a pond full of snappers lol! I have no vandetta against ANY animal for ANY reason. I respect animals and their role in nature. Matter of fact I enjoy nature, I love to sit out and watch the fish peck the surface for bugs and I enjoy watching birds, deer, etc.

Keith I do agree with you 100% every animal does have a purpose in life. Despite what many people think about spiders, I really enjoy watching spiders make webs and catch prey, for fun I will even help the spider sometimes  ;D .

I think these posts (this one and mine) all taught EVERYONE a lesson. Everyone learnt something from them. However I will do my best to try not to post anything like that again. I understand people do get offended and I can respect that.

Let's leave these posts with a positive mind attitude, think of the pros.  

God bless all  8-)

[Low_Budget_Hooker]

I stated many times my reasoning for that turtle for being shot; Fear of injury, loss of fish, overpopulation. That turtle was something in the pond that my folks didn't want, they own the land and they own the pond, so I did them the favor.

Even private ponds have to adhere to DNR rules and reg.s and I'm pretty sure "shot gun" isn't on the list for acceptable means of harvest.

You originally came on about a post making it sound cool and macho to "blow away" a snapping turtle because you think he's the reason for the dead fish you saw.  Then you go and put it on your parents,..."they asked me to" and it just gets worse from there.  You seem to "understand" the ethical standpoint but at the same time can't just say "hey, I screwed up, lesson learned".  

Personally, I think I'd sit back and just read when it came to these posts.  

[mattm]

mattm,

Please don't take this as an attack on you...

hunting a certain bird or animal because it's a challenging shot is no better than killing ruthlessly... you could go to a skeet/trap/rifle range for the sporting shot...  people who hunt, withing the law,  need no justification.

Should I be ashamed that I am a good shot with a rifle and can shoot a deer or other animal at long range?  NO SIR.  The fact that I am handy with a shotgun means nothing, other than I buy less shells than you when dove hunting. If a deer presents a good shot at XXX yds., should I pass it up since I know I can make the shot? The real truth is that taking a "challenging shot" is LESS ethical since there is a better chance of a wound, mame or miss.  And yes, most of my deer hunting is with a traditional bow, a weapon I practice and shoot year round and still limit distances on live game to about 15 yds.  Why?  Because even at "gimme" distances, things can go wrong, and on occasionally do.  But the responsible hunter takes shots that are 100% in his mind.. thus greatly reducing any chance of a screw up.

Shooting snakes just because you think "venomous snakes" need to be shot is as rediculous as killing any other animal and letting it lie.  Venomous snakes are as important to the ecosystem as any other creature, regardless of what you may think.  Mother nature has them there for a reason, even if you don't understand it.  Just like spiders, mosquitos, ticks and other "nusiance" creatures... thay all have a purpose, like it or not.

Sorry for the rant,

Keith

flechero,

I don't take it as an attack at all.  That is a very well thought out courtesly presented post.  I can respect every opinion you presented.  I don't look down on anyone who deer hunts legally regardless of whether it is done with a rifle or not.  Deer hunting is legal and a personal choice.  All of my friends are deer hunters and I even take trips to their leases with them.  I just choose to abstain from the hunting.  I don't neccesarly dove hunt for the challenge.  I don't have a problem doing it because I feel the animal has a fair chance.  I love being oudoors and think hunting is fun.  I also think that a dove breast wrapped in bacon with a pepper taste great.  I would not dove hunt if I did not plan on eating the dove or giving them to someone who would.  Finally, maybe I am wrong for killing venomous snakes.  I've wondered that often and don't enjoy killing them.  However, I also don't feel good about any of my family members or a small child getting bit by a venomous snake.  I am not a killing freak that gets some thrill out of this.  If you and I were walking around a field and you said" please don't kill that rattlesnake.  It goes against my morals and I would rather you not."  I would certainly let the snake be out of respect for you.  I could easily see my position changing on the issue of killing venomous snakes  one day, but as of now I can't honestly say that it has.  I do however respect your position of not killing them, and understand the logic behind your thought.  At this time I just don't agree with you.  Thank you for taking the time to address the issues you had with my post in a respectful corteous manner.

Matt  

[cart7t]

I'm proud to announce that during my deer hunting days I regularily shot amadillo's whenever I came across them on the conservation hunting grounds down in Sourthern Missouri I deer hunted on.

I shot them not to eat obviously, but because they're a nuisance migratory animal that's made it's way this far north.  If you've ever been walking through a field and put your foot into a dillo hole you'll know the reason.  Most landowners encourage people to shoot them.  The conservation dept. has no standing on the animals that I know of.  Since they're non indigenous to this state I suppose they have no problem with the killing of them as long as it's done in a safe manner.

[PaparockArk]

"And if they are out of control, overpopulated or otherwise endangering the very balance of nature, are you in suport of their removal?"

Very much so. If the local authorities such as the State Department of Natural resources deem a species as overpopulated to the point that it will start to negatively effect the balance of an ecosystem I am all for bringing the species into balance with the ecosystem by means of controlled culling of the population. I think there is a thread concerning blackbirds in that very light somewhere on the boards.

Too many people in today's society unfortunately do not believe as you state in your post. Take for instance California back a few years when the California Game Department wanted to raise the number of licenses for mountain lions due to an increasing number of them nearing overpopulation numbers, the enlightened voters of California voted to ban the hunting of mountain lions all together rather than increase the number taken legally by hunting. There have been a few California residence turned into cat food since that vote and the problem is nearing a critical stage however I believe the voters of California will not see the error of their was until some children are turned into mountain lion food with large headlines and pictures. It is a shame it will take such tragedy to move the adults of a state that thinks they know better than animal experts but the drastic number of dogs, cats turned into mountain lion chow, and even the surge in attacks on adults in California have not moved them so what will it take? Major tragedy is the only thing that will force their eyes to see and their ears to hear but what an unnecessary waste.

[Guest ncbass24]

Once I shot an ant with a bb gun. In a spark of hot lead, the ant was gone. I would like to apoligize for this horrifying action. I am sorry I didn't apoligize sooner, but I did not know that it was such a big deal! ;D

[Bassn Blvd]

I think LBH and Valascus summed this up qiute well.. I got the same impression as you did LBH....I think the killing of the turtle was nothing more than someone had nothing better to do and was out screwing around.  I can't imagine how much of a nuisance a turtle could be,  But if i had to get rid of it then it would be more of a challenge and fun to try n catch it to relocate it than kill it.  Just imagine if we could kill another human  just cause they were a nuissance.  

[Bassassasin12]

LBH is COMPLETELY RIGHT!!!

John's post came out all macho at first "hey looky here I killed this turtle with my 12 gauge." and he kept backing himself up from there. Why even make the post at all. Do you really think BASS fishermen are gonna care that you shot a turtle??? We are here for fishing, not the killing of turtles.

Don't get me wrong I am no PETA activist or anything but the main reason that I fish is because you can let them go back to their environment. The reason I don't hunt is because there is no catch and release and I don't like the taste of venison so there is no point in it for me.

I think the first turtle post should never even have been made. When I read the title I knew an argument was going to arise. It's just stupid. And John, you had to have had the idea in the back of your mind that there were going to be mixed emotions on your turtle post, so why post it? If you really feel a need to post how you killed a turtle in your pond go to google and type in "turtle extermination forums" I am sure there are others just like yourself  :

[Hookemdown.]

Just imagine if we could kill another human  just cause they were a nuissance.  

Ahhh, the good ol' days

Well, here's my two cents' worth.  I like you John am a teenager.  I've seen ponds and a local lake completely OVERRUN with snappers.  It's had a pretty bad effect not only on fishing but the entire ecosystem of the area's as well.  In your original post, I'll agree with LBH in that you were trying to sound "macho" when you shot the turtle.

So here's my thoughts, The snappers are natural critters.  But guess what...WE are natural critters too.  It's our responsibility to not only respect and admire these animals but also control the population of them.  However, I don't think a shotgun was the right choice. (But a quick death from a shotgun is still a heck of alot better than the turtle traps I've stumbled upon that contained starved to death turtles.)  Did that turtle deserve to die... of course not.  But was it necessary to maintain a healthy habitat...that's on you bud.

Now Matt....About the deer hunting...

I don't consider a 250 yard shot squeezed between brush with the wind blowing 30+ while it's about 10 below outside easy.(But just to let you know, I too NEVER take a low percentage shot)  Also, as for thinking that deer hunting is fair.  No, it's not.  I'll give the advantage to the deer any day. You might not have thought that that deer knew that you were there, but chances are that he knew something was up. I've seen deer pick up my sent from 100 yards away.  I've seen them pick up my slightest movements as I position for a shot.  I don't consider deer hunting a sport.  I consider it a passion.  It's a chance to relive the activities of our ancestors while being in the great outdoors.

But... ;D   I respect your decision not to pursue deer hunting, after all, it's your decision.

This may have just been my longest post in the history of BassResource.com.   ;D

[John J.]

"macho"? here we go again with the accusations. I already said I learned from my mistakes:

Just as any other teenager in the world, I am still learning from my mistakes, my decisions and life.

Which LBH, it is in the same post as you got my quote from. I wanted to end this entire conversation, I've stated it before. But yet it is people who still want to get under my skin and continue this entire topic.

Once again the reason for posting the topic is to get feedback if what I did was good or bad. And all of you shared your opinions, and I do respect that. But things were (and are now) getting a little out of hand and it's getting to be a personal attack on my part. Maybe you guys got the impression that I was trying to be macho (must have been the thread title), but rest assured I do not feel 'bad to the bone' when I kill animals.

Now I've tried to end this before, but I feel I can't do it alone. Hopefully now this topic can end.

[John J.]

ok, ok, ok...I looked back at what I posted and indeed I did display and act of 'excitement' to the kill. I did visually display the big "Boom" thing. It was indeed my fault that I put that there. I know now that was my mistake....

yes for all of those that read this I am sorry I was being 'cocky'. I've never killed a turtle of that mass or size and for me it was a great pleasure. Don't think I am cold hearted by saying that. There are plenty of hunters probably here that would kill a big buck to say "ooh! I killed a monster!"

And Bassassassin, you stated that noone cares, that this is a bass fishing forum, not a hunting one. I did state earlier, and you can look back that I did understand I shouldn't have posted the topic and that I apologized for it. And another thing.... if noone cared, then why was there such a big debate?

For those who do care, I do apologize. I know I shouldn't have brought this up.

I know a lot of you will still think of me as a 'cold hearted SOB' but you know what, I really don't care. Noone has the right to judge me anyway.

[Glenn]

Enough.