Chances of US and Iranian conflict?

[cart7t]

I don't understand are you talking about?  :-?

[Troutfisher]

If this country wants to do something useful, it might be sending troops into Pakistan and flushing the real terrorists out.

Well, from what you said in your last post, the terrorists who attack our soldiers in Iraq apparently aren't the real terrorists, and Osama and his gang are the "real' terrorists.

[paparock]

BTW, broad brushing all Muslims by tying them to extremist terrorists is merely showing your ignorance of those people and their religion. For example, there are extremist "Right to lifers" who have and do believe in taking the life of abortion doctors as a means of making their point and pushing their agenda. Anyone that believes that the majority of people who believe in right to life have the same tendencies is poorly misinformed.

Please read my previous post. If you study the writings and teachings of the most respected scholars in the Middle East at the foundational institutions of Islam you will learn the fundational principles or pillars of Islam are not what you apparently believe they are.

The difference between People who call themselves Christians and do as you say above is that they are not following the teachings or the example set by the the life Jesus lived while here on Earth.

The Muslims that are commiting militant Jihad ("Terrorism") are in fact following both the teachings and the example that Muhammad set by the life he lived while here on Earth as set forth in the Hadith. So there is a significant difference. You can Read for yourself in the english translations of the Quran and Hadith.

[cart7t]

If this country wants to do something useful, it might be sending troops into Pakistan and flushing the real terrorists out.

Well, from what you said in your last post, the terrorists who attack our soldiers in Iraq apparently aren't the real terrorists, and Osama and his gang are the "real' terrorists.

The last I heard, the guys responsible for 9-11, the real reason we were supposed to go over there, have not been caught.  In fact, I don't hear a whole lot about Bin Laden and attempts to catch him or kill him these days.  I guess we need some new bad guys to keep this mess going over there and divert attention.  Hey, let's pick the Iranians.  Next year it'll be Syria.  

Everything that's happening within Iraq was predictable.  It was predictable before we ever set foot in that country.  The Presidents own commission to study the Iraq situation (those guys GWB now wants to just ignore) predicted whats happening would happen and also gave specific instructions on the best way to handle Iran, which will have to be dealt with.  Dropping bombs on things that make you uncomfortable in life isn't a responsible act, it's the act of ignorance and cowardice to face the realities of the world we live in and learn how to live responsibly within it.

[Troutfisher]

Why don't you go tell the 26 million men and women of Iraq that are now free from tyranny that we shouldn't have went over there?  In case you don't know, we DID invade Afghanistan, and captured Kabul.  Ask a soldier if the hunt is on for Bin Laden.  I bet they'll say yes.  

If you want to talk about the President's commission, why don't you talk about Clinton appointed CIA director George Tenet who said that Saddam possessing WMD's was a "slam dunk"?

[chitwnbass]

How many Amish Farmers, Buddhist Monks, Jewish Leaders and Christian Pastors did you see going around blowing themselves up for their religion?

None.

Radical Islamic terrorists are the just cause behind the terrorist attacks.

My point is these people would be terrorists if there was no Islam.  They are motivated by other forces than the teachings of a religion. And last time I checked a lot of acts of atrocity by multiple beliefs have been committed supposedly in the name of their religion.

I'll bet there were people saying that on September 10, 2001 as well.

Sept. 11 was a non-nuclear act of terror I was simply addressing the nuclear act.  As far as preventing any terror attack on U.S. soil is a near impossibility.  All the wars in the world will not prevent these.

If we duck and run from Iraq, it shows terrorists that we are a weak country.  Terrorists won't listen to reason.

Last time I checked there are no countries in the world that are completely governed by recognized terrorist organizations.  I agree the terrorist threat needs to be addressed but not through invading every country that may have terrorist inside its borders.

Hasn't anybody had the idea that a nuclear device doesn't necessary has to be big bang bomb?

Dirty bombs don't have any where near the potential to kill that a conventional nuclear device does. Large dirty bombs are relatively detectable when assembled and would be difficult to construct than buying used X-ray equipment. Besides the type of blast your describing would be relatively containable and doesn't pose much of a radiological threat to people outside the immediate blast zone.

And finally Papa Rock

Lots of people kill themselves in the name of Islam all the time, Imp sure in the middle east many teach Islam as militant religion, and many books have been written by people describing Jihad and the destruction of the west by the teaching of Islam.  This is not Islam!!!! It's exactly what I said a perversion of the religion. Just because people use a religion to recruit people to do horrible things and twist its words and teachings to use it to their advantages does not make these people religious.  I don't believe for a second Christians that blow up abortion clinics are Christian or Catholics who slaughtered in the name of the holy roman church are Catholics and people who kill in the name of Islam are not truly Islamic.  I know from personal interaction with these people that their religion is not the monster it's made out to be by books, news reports or other rampant rumors.  

[Troutfisher]

My point is these people would be terrorists if there was no Islam.  They are motivated by other forces than the teachings of a religion. And last time I checked a lot of acts of atrocity by multiple beliefs have been committed supposedly in the name of their religion.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that for a second.

[chitwnbass]

My point is these people would be terrorists if there was no Islam. They are motivated by other forces than the teachings of a religion. And last time I checked a lot of acts of atrocity by multiple beliefs have been committed supposedly in the name of their religion.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that for a second.

Whats not to buy? There are plent of terrosits all over the world who perform acts independent of any religious affiliation. Why would these people be any diffrent if there was no religion. They have other motivations and are using religion as a convinent binder in thier convictions.

[cart7t]

My point is these people would be terrorists if there was no Islam.  They are motivated by other forces than the teachings of a religion. And last time I checked a lot of acts of atrocity by multiple beliefs have been committed supposedly in the name of their religion.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that for a second.

Not surprising.

The Japanese lined up to strap themselves into airplanes with a one way ticket to death in WWII.  All in the name of glory to the emporer.  

They were not Islamics nor did they do it for religious reasons.

You're confusing radical extremists with a large populace of people who believe in the Muslim faith.  If in fact Muslims were all evil and have nothing but contempt for America and would love nothing better than to see all Americans dead,  why aren't they over here killing us off as we speak?  This country has quite a few of the Muslim faith and yet the last American terrorists attack on this country performed by an American was by Timothy McVeigh, hardly a Muslim.

[Dan:]

Ok, I think a distinciton needs to be made. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but there ARE muslims who are terrorists and they are fueled and directed by extremist branches of their religion. The Qu'ran has some ambiguous language and some of the religious leaders use that ambiguity to get power and to get people to do things for them ie: kill targets of fatwas, suicide bomb Israeli marketplaces, etc. Obviously not all Muslims are terrorists, but most of the muslim terrorists ARE motivated by corrupted religious beleifs.

The concern with Iran is because it is led by people that are extremists. Just look at the civil rights in that country, women can be whipped for socializing with men, they aren't allowed to drive cars, men are killed for homosexuality, etc, etc. The extremist religious leaders have control there and that is what is dangerous. That is a difference with Iran and Iraq, first of all, Iran is headed by the religious extremists while Iraq was pretty much secular. The second difference is that Iran has actually bragged about their nuclear developments and stated their desire to destroy other countries. That simple fact makes the two situations VERY different. You can't really compare anything about these two countries besides their geography. Iran is posing a much more serious security threat to the world than Iraq did and needs to be addressed, preferably in a different way than Iraq was handled.

That very fact is the reason why I think the international community will be more likely to join together against Iran if they do not comply with nuclear treaties or if they try something with Israel. Iran has clearly voiced their desire to do something that the whole world will condemn and that's why I think we'll get more support to deal with them.

As of right now, I don't think we need to take military action. There might still be ways to solve the problem if enough countries take touch stances against Iran. If that doesn't work, we will need to act militarily.

[paparock]

Not every Muslim is a believer in the Islamic faith to the point that they follow militant Jihad, as there are degrees of faith for those in Islam just as in Christianity. Some Christians believe the fundamental teachings of the Christian faith as set forth in the Bible while others just go to a church on Sunday, some just play lip service to the faith, and the same is true for Islam. However, the point I have been trying to get through is the foundational principles of the religions. Over a year ago I did not know much of anything about Islam but because of the effect it is having worldwide and upon my country I decided I had to learn. So I Bought a Quran, Hadiths and as many books as I could find on the subject from many different viewpoints and started reading and cross-referencing. What I have learned has both shocked and horrified me. You can say you do not believe me but until you study for yourself you can only rely on what others say and not on personal knowledge. Again I will state what repeated authors and former terrorists state about the motivational indoctrination given fundamental believers recruited into Terror and that is that only through martyrdom for Islam is a believer guaranteed entry into Heaven according to Islamic teaching. Whither you believe that or not does not change the reality of the truth of it.

[Troutfisher]

Well said, Paparock.

[roadwarrior]

That time has come. That time is now.

Strike decisively, and take no prisoners. Make the statement unquestionably clear:

Threaten America and you will die.

You, your family, everyone you know and your entire culture will disappear, now, right now.

Back down or we will create a situation that results in unimaginable consequences and unconditional surrender.

[Fish Man]

You're confusing radical extremists with a large populace of people who believe in the Muslim faith. If in fact Muslims were all evil and have nothing but contempt for America and would love nothing better than to see all Americans dead, why aren't they over here killing us off as we speak?

why arent they killing us now? why start now with a few relatively small bombs and get caught or waste watever supplys or wut not they have wen they can make one bomb ( a nuke ) and do all that and more at once

p.s when i say they i do not mean to blame all muslims just the ones that are terrorists and do not intend to offend anyone

[Troutfisher]

That time has come. That time is now.

Strike decisively, and take no prisoners. Make the statement unquestionably clear:

Threaten America and you will die.

You, your family, everyone you know and your entire culture will disappear, now, right now.

Back down or we will create a situation that results in unimaginable consequences and unconditional surrender.

That's probably the best post that's been made throughout this entire thread.  Kudos, Roadwarrior.  

[Guest avid]

This war is so reminiscent of Viet Nam it's scary.

First we go in under trumped up circustances.

Second, our soldiers do most of the real fighting while the "nationals" are ineffective

Third, there are no front lines. Soldiers can be killed eating lunch in the middle of the city.

The list goes on and on.

Now we are blaming Iran, just like we blamed Cambodia back in the day.

History repeats itself whether you remember it or not.

[cart7t]

Ok, I think a distinciton needs to be made. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but there ARE muslims who are terrorists and they are fueled and directed by extremist branches of their religion.

As of right now, I don't think we need to take military action. There might still be ways to solve the problem if enough countries take touch stances against Iran. If that doesn't work, we will need to act militarily.

There are extremists roaming around in the Ozark hills that are prepared to fight against OUR goverment if need be.  Extremism?  You bet.  It comes in all forms, just the the Right to Lifers who think an abortion clinic doctor has the right to die for taking the life of an unborn.  History is full of extremists who took a seed and ran with it the wrong way.  You don't kill all the people in a psyche ward just because one was an axe murderer.

[cart7t]

That time has come. That time is now.

Strike decisively, and take no prisoners. Make the statement unquestionably clear:

Threaten America and you will die.

You, your family, everyone you know and your entire culture will disappear, now, right now.

Back down or we will create a situation that results in unimaginable consequences and unconditional surrender.

Perfect example of extremists thinking.  

[cart7t]

This war is so reminiscent of Viet Nam it's scary.

First we go in under trumped up circustances.

Second, our soldiers do most of the real fighting while the "nationals" are ineffective

Third, there are no front lines. Soldiers can be killed eating lunch in the middle of the city.

The list goes on and on.

Now we are blaming Iran, just like we blamed Cambodia back in the day.

History repeats itself whether you remember it or not.

How true.

The biggest difference is the three religious factions within Iraq don't get along very well together at all.  Yeah, this is gonna work REAL good.  :

[paparock]

Ok, I think a distinciton needs to be made. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but there ARE muslims who are terrorists and they are fueled and directed by extremist branches of their religion.

As of right now, I don't think we need to take military action. There might still be ways to solve the problem if enough countries take touch stances against Iran. If that doesn't work, we will need to act militarily.

There are extremists roaming around in the Ozark hills that are prepared to fight against OUR goverment if need be. Extremism? You bet. It comes in all forms, just the the Right to Lifers who think an abortion clinic doctor has the right to die for taking the life of an unborn. History is full of extremists who took a seed and ran with it the wrong way. You don't kill all the people in a psyche ward just because one was an axe murderer.

You are getting a little carried away. If you are trying to insult me because you looked up that I live in the Ozarks then I would rather you try making a rational calm argument of your position. No one has said all Muslims are terrorists as you keep repeating. But Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Queda, and host of other major terrorist organizations are based upon Islam. Take Hezbollah for example, headed by Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah (the Secretary General of Hizbullah).

Nasrallah is a devoted Muslim and has spent periods of his life studying at religious centres in Iraq. In the mid-1970s he moved to a ****e Hawza (Islamic Seminary) in the Iraqi city of Najaf to study Qura'anic divine sciences, completing the first stage of his studies in 1978 before being forced to leave by the Iraqi authorities.[1] Despite his ongoing commitment to Hezbollah, in 1989 Nasrallah resumed his efforts to become a religious jurisprudent by moving to the sacred Iranian city of Qom to further his studies. Nasrallah believes that Islam holds the solution to the problems of any society, once saying, With respect to us, briefly, Islam is not a simple religion including only praises and prayers, rather it is a divine message that was designed for humanity, and it can answer any question man might ask concerning his general and private life. Islam is a religion designed for a society that can revolt and build a state.

The country of Iran is run by Islamic Imams that have total veto over all other governmental bodies.

D.C. Imam supporting jihad terror and Islamic supremacism

http://www.jihadwatch.org/

"The most glorious death is the death of the martyr," says Imam Musa's Myspace page. And also:

His methodology draws heavily on the writings of Malcolm X, Maulana Mawdudi, Hasan al-Banna, Sayyid Qutb, Kalim Siddiqui, and Imam Khomeini. New members of the group are encouraged to individually familiarize themselves with the works of these political Islamic thinkers in addition to daily classes and lectures on classical Islamic studies, Arabic, hadith and Qur'an. Special emphasis is placed on personal development and growth based on the Qur'an and Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), as well as incorporating tightly knit family units within the overall community structure. The movement has spread across the US and is extremely popular among college students and African-American youth. Imam Musa has been regularly invited to speak at college campuses and Islamic events around the world. Critics have suggested that he promotes anti-Semitism in his speeches, which he claims are directed at Zionist supporters of Israel and not at Jewish people in general. During a rally in July 1999 Imam Musa displayed a cashier's check made out to "Hamas, Palestine," to protest the 1996 U.S. law which declared Hamas a terrorist organization.

I keep hearing about all the peace loving Islamic believers. Can this Ozark Hillbilly ask a question? Since 9-11 where have they all been because I seen Muslims riot and kill innocent people over cartoons, threaten the Pope over a quotation they did not like, assassinate a film maker in the Netherlands, hold conferences denying the Holocaust, threaten to wipe Israel of the face of the world, and scream "Death to America". Where are all the moderate Imams and why are they not on TV and in the streets demanding these few as you claim stop. Why are they not calling the terrorists apostates damned of Allah for profaning Islam. Terrorists Imams claim the terrorists are following the true Islamic Faith through Militant Jihad against all Infidels. If that is a lie, then why does not Islam worldwide show the outrage they show over a Dutch cartoon? Why can't you get any Imams or major groups like CAIR (Council On American-Islamic Relations) to call those that commit terrorism, appostates that are in violation of Islamic Law?

[cart7t]

I'm not insulting anyone from the Ozarks. My mother was born and raised in Willow Springs, Missouri.  I've spent plenty of time on the waters and in the woods in Southern Missouri.  But I can tell you this. I wouldn't go wandering in the hills around Bull Shoals or Norfolk lakes without a gun in my hand.  There are bonafide radical extremists groups down there that are heavily armed and that's been documented.  I won't even get into the commune I know exists up Lick creek on Norfolk lake.  Those nut cases ruined our deer hunting down on Corps land we'd been hunting for years.  You will see them occasionally sunning themselves, totally nude, like turtles out on logs in the middle of the creek.  I was back in a cove on Norfolk fishing close to the MO/Ark border one day,  this cove wasn't anywhere near a paved, or even unpaved road.  Low and behold, out of the woods came this scraggly, long haired who proceeded to strip and take a bath in the lake.  Where this guy came from I have no idea as there wasn't a road or dwelling within miles.  

Since 9-11 where have they all been because I seen Muslims riot and kill innocent people over cartoons, threaten the Pope over a quotation they did not like, assassinate a film maker in the Netherlands,  hold conferences denying the Holocaust, threaten to wipe Israel of the face of the world, and scream "Death to America". Where are all the moderate Imams and why are they not on TV and in the streets demanding these few as you claim stop. Why are they not calling the terrorists apostates damned of Allah for profaning Islam. Terrorists Imams claim the terrorists are following the true Islamic Faith through Militant Jihad against all Infidels. If that is a lie, then why does not Islam worldwide show the outrage they show over a Dutch cartoon? Why can't you get any Imams or major groups like CAIR (Council On American-Islamic Relations) to call those that commit terrorism, appostates that are in violation of Islamic Law?

I'm sure they're just as afraid of the extremists as anyone else is.

[chitwnbass]

PRock,

I do believe you have studied the Quran and read many books on this subject and may be versed on the writings of this religion but I believe you are falling into a trap like many others.  You seem to me like you are going into these studies with preconceived notions of a militant Islam.  I have friends who are Muslims and I have spoke at great lengths with them about their religion and its teachings. These are people who live the religion and whose families have been part of it for thousands of years.  They have brought it to my attention that many of their teachings are commonly misquoted, misinterpreted and misused not only by others but by people of their own religion.  A lot of the Quran is open to interpretation and in the last 1000 years it has been subtly changed from its original message. My friends assure me that Islam and the Quran have nothing to do with violence.  The most recent being with the word "Jihad".  This word and the Islamic teachings surrounding it have nothing to do with war or violence.

There are many muslims that don't agree with what is being done in thier religions name and they are trying to get thier voices heard.  Try finding a book, "The Trouble with Islam Today: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith" by Irshad Manji, very intresting stuff. She also just had an interview with Larry King.

[Guest avid]

That time has come. That time is now.

Strike decisively, and take no prisoners. Make the statement unquestionably clear:

Threaten America and you will die.

You, your family, everyone you know and your entire culture will disappear, now, right now.

Back down or we will create a situation that results in unimaginable consequences and unconditional surrender.

And if your "policy were implemented" what would the consequences for the Us be?

China would sit idly by as we nuke thier oil supplies? and millions of innodenct lives are incinerated?

the Russian states with their thousands of nukes would allow their border nations and allies to be nuked with no retaliation?

I'm afraid dear RW that the statement you wish to make namely "Threaten America and you will die" is not the statement the world will hear. What the world will hear is "America has gone mad and must be stopped"

[BassChaser57]

Some of you guys are really missing the point. This is not about individual idiots such as a redneck, or a goofball that kills an abortion Dr. (2 in history) or other individual acts. This is about organized terorist groups.

Another thought is that I can not remember in the history of the world where an organized uniformed army beat an organized gorilla force.

British in America--Nope

France in Viet Nam - Nope

U.S in Viet Nam - Nope

Russia in Afganistan - Nope

U.S. in Somalia  - Nope

U.S. in Iraq --Not so far

We were able to have a swift victory in Kuwait only because we knew who and where the enemy was and unleashed the wrath of the U. S military on them. If you do not know who the enemy is, or where thay are, how do you beat them?

[cart7t]

Excellant point basschaser.  We're not attacking a country, we're sending large organized military units up against a half a dozen guys with machine guns and homemade bombs who are hiding in buildings here and there.  For every 6 you kill, 6 more pop up somewhere else.  They're not coming from anywhere in particular, there's no one place you can attack, bomb, nuke, whatever that will stop the flow or end the will to resist our presence there.

This turns into a no win situation in Iraq when the 3 factions of religious groups can't figure out how to coexist with one another without killing each other.  We have been leaning towards a democratic rule with the Sunni's having too much control, this is contrary to a Democratic governed body which is supposed to be governed by majority rule.  The majority in this case are the ****e, a group with strong ties to the Iranians.  A good non-partisan plan was put together to try and end this as sensibly as possible.  George Bush would prefer to ignore it rather than face the massive mistakes his administration has made in this affair.  I'd have had a lot more respect for the guy if he just admitted he ****** up and then opened himself to a better idea.  He hasn't so he has no backing from me on this.  I just am sick of the killing.  I was with close dear friends last year as they buried their Marine son who lost his life over there.  I knew the young man since he was in diapers.  I don't want anyone else to have to go through that pain again.  Especially since the end game is going to become the train wreck at the end of the tunnel that this one is already panning out to be.