Chances of US and Iranian conflict?

[Water Dog]

The militants will see our pull out of Iraq just as they did our pull out of the ill conceived 'cut and run' mission in Somalia.

I forgot to mention that the Ethiopians have been kicking butt against the Islamic terrorists in Somalia with a little from us. Apparently, the Ethiopians didn't feel the need to take the alphabet networks in with them....as a consequence have been very successful. The African Union is evidently sick of militant Islam in their midst and are taking care of business.

Maybe we should take a page out of that book for Iraq, and Iran.

About the African Union:

The African Union (AU) is an organization consisting of fifty-three African states. Established in 2001, the AU was formed as a successor to the amalgamated African Economic Community (AEC) and the Organization of African Unity (OAU).

the AU aims to have a single currency and a single integrated defense force, as well as other institutions of state, including a cabinet for the AU Head of State. The purpose of the union is to help secure Africa's democracy, human rights, and a sustainable economy, especially by bringing an end to intra-African conflict and creating an effective common market.

The United States has assisted Somali, Ethiopian and Kenyan forces with intelligence, advisors and limited military strikes from bases in those countries and from Djibouti. They have offered money to support a peace keeping force. The involvement of the United States is part of their War on Terrorism and specifically Al-Qaeda.

Yes, even though we have killed several of OBL's assistants, we are still after his #2 and him if he is not already dead.

Somali Prime Minister Gedi declared one of the key objectives of the offensive on Kismayo was the capture of three alleged Al-Qaeda members, suspects wanted for the 1998 United States embassy bombings in East Africa: Fazul Abdullah Mohammed, Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan and Abu Taha al-Sudani.

The United States Fifth Fleet's multinational maritime task force, Combined Task Force 150 (CTF-150),[79] based out of Bahrain[80] is patrolling off the Somali coast to prevent terrorists launching an "attack or to transport personnel, weapons or other material," said Commander Kevin Aandahl.[81]

We need to be serious about limiting Iranian involvement in Iraq, I expect the use of a few low yield nukes along the Iraqi border might discourage unlimited access by Iranian terrorists. One thing that the terrorists do respect is strength. Maybe a small demonstration of strength would be helpful.

[Troutfisher]

U.S in Viet Nam - Nope

If we would have stayed the course in Vietnam instead of having idiots like Jane Fonda sitting on enemies tanks, we would have won Vietnam.  Yes, we would have won.  The reason we lost is that we pulled out because of hippies crying for peace.  Now, people in congress want to do the same thing, and if we pull out, it will be a lost cause, as was Vietnam.

I'm afraid dear RW that the statement you wish to make namely "Threaten America and you will die" is not the statement the world will hear. What the world will hear is "America has gone mad and must be stopped"

Personally, who cares?  When was the last time other countries came to our aid, other than with the War on Terror?  When the Tsunami hit, billions went from the US to those disaster hit countries to help out.  Anytime a disaster hits overseas, we are the first ones to help.  Yet after Hurricane Katrina, I don't remember countries rushing to our aid as we did for them.

[Guest avid]

Yet after Hurricane Katrina, I don't remember countries rushing to our aid as we did for them.

As a matter of fact a number of countries offered aid.  This proved an embarrasment for president bush.  How could he admit that the US needs aid from other countries?  My recollection is that he turned down all formal offers of assistance directly to the us goverment but advised any one or nation to contribute to Red Cross Katrina fund.

As far as the "hippies" getting the USA out of Viet Nam, is such a ridiculous statement that it's downright laughable.  the American people got tired of all the lies, and killing and promises of victory that never materialized.  It's true that after Tet, the North was in bad shape militarily, but we 10 years to beat them and finally the American people said "no more".

finally, unleashing a nuclear barrage on our "enemies" will solve all our problems.

The global thermonuclear holocaust that will surely follow will make all politics, not to mention all life on the planet a moot point.

We want easy answers to complex problems.  Understandable but not possible.

[paparock]

I understand your point and agree there are peaceful Muslims as you say. As in Christianity, there are branches of belief in any religion some hold to the literal writings of the founders of the religion while others take a more liberal view. That I stated in earlier posts. Cart7 said quote I'm sure they're just as afraid of the extremists as anyone else is. When I asked why these moderate Muslims do not vocally voice their condemnation of the radical Islamist Terror groups. If fear is the reason then these moderate Muslims are failing to defend Islam against apostasy that is the worst thing that can be done according to their own religion's writings. Any writings are open to interpretation depending on if one wants to follow them literally or only figuratively.

Chitwnbass ask your Muslim friends about the principle of Nasikh in Islam.

Whatever Verse do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?"

Surah 2:106

In laymen's terms, this verse allows any previous verse or revelation to be superseded or negated by a latter one or in other words, Muhammad said Allah changed his mind so Muslims are to follow the latter revelation. That is the cause of much of the confusion you refer to in Islam as to which verses different Muslims choose to follow. The Verses change meanings from Muhammad' first writings in the Quran to the last or later year writings.

Maybe I can make it clearer by breaking it down more.

Ordinary Muslims:

They are Muslims because of their culture and tradition rather than because of strong religious beliefs.

Committed Muslims:

They are making great efforts to live according to Islam.

Orthodox Muslims: a subset of committed Muslims. Not only do orthodox Muslims want to follow the requirements of Islam, but they also want to do it in the same way as Muhammad did it in the seventh century.

Fanatic Muslims: These committed Muslims put their words and beliefs into actions.

In the early writings of Muhammad Jihad was meant for internal change and betterment. You see Muhammad started his writing in Mecca. While their Islam was in its early years and weak and Muhammad's followers were persecuted so he went to Medina. Media was home to the largest Jewish community in Arabia at that time. Muhammad tried to convert the large Jewish community. He even commanded his followers to turn toward Jerusalem when they prayed during this period. However, the Jews rejected Muhammad's new religion on what they called unacceptable contradictions in the 7 percent of Old Testament text included in the Quran. It was after this that the writings of Muhammad changed to condemn the Jews stating that Allah cursed the Jewish people because of their transgressions Surah 5:78 changed from his earlier revelation where the Jews were Allah's chosen people in Surah 2:47.

In 2000, the Islamic Assembly of North America published a booklet titled No for Normalization. In it is written and I quote:

The Jews came and attacked this land and stole it, and this will not change the fact that this land is Muslim, and it will remain that way forever. If we are not able to liberate this land today from the Jews, this does not mean that we can give up. We have to work until the time comes, and then we will bring it back to the Islamic world.

This mindset is because Muhammad taught that Muslims would fight the Jews until the day of Resurrection.

Islamic ruled nations charge a tax to all non-Muslims to remain in their faiths. The tax is called Jizyah and is traditionally levied once a year. Do you think that only went on during ancient times? Wrong, because Christians in countries like Egypt are killed today if they refuse to pay the tax.

Read about who Sayyid Quth is and about Signs Along the Road. Look up Dr. Salah Serea, Shokri Mostafa. Try reading The Missing Commitments (Al-Fareda Al-Gaaba) by Mohammad Abaed al-Salem.

For the Christians on the forum, if you really want to read a book that speaks to today's times since people like Iran's President Ahmadinejad call's for the Twelfth Imam (Islamic Messiah) I would highly recommend Joel Richardson's book " AntiChrist Islam's Awaited Messiah". Pastor Reza F. Safa, former radical Muslim says about the book "This book is central to recognizing the fullfillment of Biblical End-Times prophecy in our day and understanding the role that Islam plays in it." Even if you are not a believer in Christianity or Islam it is frightening and compelling read that speaks a lot about what we see today happening in Iran.

From the Quran I quote from Surah 9:5

"Kill the Mushrikun [unbelieverers] wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and evry ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as--Salat) [the five ritual prayers per day], and give Zakat [alms], then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

So as long as you as an unbeliever are willing to submit yourself under Islam you will be spared. You have heard similar words from Iranian and Muslim leaders from around the world dirrected at America and you its citizens.

Again I quote the Quran to show you the truth of what Islam is at it's foundation as it speaks how Muslims are to treat all other religions.

"And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshiping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshiping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do." Surah 8:39

You can choose to believe whatever you wish but these are the things written in the Quran and the Western World must come to understand the motivation of the Middle Eastern Muslim Nations operating under Islamic rule and law like Iran that is ruled by Hardline fanatic Islamic Clerics that believe these things to the depths of their souls. Some day that fact will have to be faced!

[Dan:]

paparock, you are right, if you actually read the holy texts of Islam, they do have very aggressive and frightening language in places. The thing is that most muslims, the ones that are reasonable don't adhere to those portions. it's like how the bible says to stone your children for disobedience, etc, etc. The Bible has similar things but like muslims, most christians just ignore the unreasonable-ancient contextual parts. The muslims who practice those parts are typically the extremists, those passages from the Qu'ran are their justification for their jihads and the ammunition their ulemmas use to motivate extremism, but the majority of muslims do not practice from those passages.

Many of you are confusing the Iran issue with other issues. This is not necessarily related to Iraq, they are very different situations and I've already explained why. I don't understand why people keep bringing in Iraq or  Vietnam for that matter. Those were different countries with different goals in different situations.

This is about Iran--how Iran has threatened allied countries and their pursuance of nuclear arms contradicting international law. Leave the debate about the other stuff out unless it actually is relevant.

and rw, your overly aggressive "US has can do what they want if deemed necessary including the destruction of an entire country" attitude is ridiculous. That won't pass in the global community. Sure, we are strong enough to do whatever the hell we want, but there are tons of reasons why we shouldn't.

[roadwarrior]

This was the original question posted to start this thread:

After listening to all the rhetoric and speculations the last few months on Iran's involvement in Iraq, I kind of shrugged it all off as posturing from both sides. Now, I am not quite sure. I have a feeling that it is going to come done to just such a conflict, even though it might be another nose to nose threatening match and then everyone stands down. Do you feel it is a lot of push and shove or do you feel there is a possibility of a real conflict. If so, is it justifiable?

"Prepare the missles for launch, 12:01 AM 2/24/07" is my response.

c312,

I am sorry that you don't like the response and find it ridiculous. You are free to disagree.

I say "Kill them all and let God sort it out."

As for other nations initiating retribution, I think the magnitude of the diplay will disuade any other country from taking up arms. In future conflicts, there will be no question about our resolve to use force.

Regarding the "global community," let them eat cake.

[Dan:]

you are over-estimating our ability to be independent from other countries.

[paparock]

paparock, you are right, if you actually read the holy texts of Islam, they do have very aggressive and frightening language in places. The thing is that most muslims, the ones that are reasonable don't adhere to those portions. it's like how the bible says to stone your children for disobedience, etc, etc.

This thread (Chances of US and Iranian conflict?) was started in relation to Iran and one can not address that subject without addressing fundamental Islam as the country is ruled my Fanatic Islamic Religious Mullas and Imams that have total veto over all other forms of government. In Iran Islamic Law Rules, Period.

Excuse me but I have read the Bible from cover to cover and plus attended a Bible College and nowhere that I know of does it call for stoning your children for disobedience. Please if you are going to refer to a religions teachings quote them from text accurately as I did or you are falsely accusing people of things.

Disagreement is fine but let us at least be honest and as accurate as possible in our discourse. What you describe as not being reasonable is the basis of the two faiths Christianity and Islam. If you do not believe the doctrinal base of the faiths may I ask what the purpose of calling yourself a Christian or Muslim believer in Islam is other than just playing lip service. You can pick and choose different parts of different religions without espousing belief or calling one's self a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, etc.. It would seem rather hypocritical to call yourself a believer in a faith that you in fact do not believe in.

You said, "This is about Iran--how Iran has threatened allied countries and their pursuance of nuclear arms contradicting international law. Leave the debate about the other stuff out unless it actually is relevant." The fact that Iran is ruled by Islamic Religious Leaders that are over the elected leaders is directly relevant. That fact also makes those Islamic Leaders Religious beliefs directly relevant to the issue as they rule in accordance to Islamic Religious Law. These Islamic Rulers are also the ones making the decisions to send Iranian Revolutionary Guard soldiers into Iraq along with, weapons, specialized roadside munitions, and training terrorist insurgent forces inside Iraq. It seems to me you are the one that seems confused as to the true issues involved.

02/13/2007

Austrian sniper rifles that were exported to Iran have been discovered in the hands of Iraqi terrorists, The Daily Telegraph has learned.

More than 100 of the.50 calibre weapons, capable of penetrating body armour, have been discovered by American troops during raids.The guns were part of a shipment of 800 rifles that the Austrian company, Steyr-Mannlicher, exported legally to Iran last year.The sale was condemned in Washington and London because officials were worried that the weapons would be used by insurgents against British and American troops. Within 45 days of the first HS50 Steyr Mannlicher rifles arriving in Iran, an American officer in an armoured vehicle was shot dead by an Iraqi insurgent using the weapon. Over the last six months American forces have found small caches of the £10,000 rifles but in the last 24 hours a raid in Baghdad brought the total to more than 100, US defence sources reported. They said 170 American and British soldiers had been killed by such weapons. The discovery of the sniper rifles will further encourage those in Washington who want to see Iran's uranium-enriching facilities destroyed before a nuclear weapon is produced. The Foreign Office expressed "serious concerns" over the sale of the rifles last year and Britain protested to the Austrian government. A Foreign Office spokesman said last night: "Although we did make our worries known the sale unfortunately went ahead and now the potential that these weapons could fall into the wrong hands appears to have happened." The rifle can pierce all body armour from up to a mile and penetrate armoured Humvee troop carriers. It is highly accurate and fires a round called an armour piercing incendiary, a bullet that the Iranians manufacture. The National Iranian Police Organisation bought the rifles allegedly to use them against drug smugglers in an £8 million order placed with Steyr in 2005. The company was given permission to export them by the Austrian government, which is not a Nato member.

[boondocks]

For the Christians on the forum, if you really want to read a book that speaks to today's times since people like Iran's President Ahmadinejad call's for the Twelfth Imam (Islamic Messiah) I would highly recommend Joel Richardson's book " AntiChrist Islam's Awaited Messiah". Pastor Reza F. Safa, former radical Muslim says about the book "This book is central to recognizing the fullfillment of Biblical End-Times prophecy in our day and understanding the role that Islam plays in it." Even if you are not a believer in Christianity or Islam it is frightening and compelling read that speaks a lot about what we see today happening in Iran.

You want to talk about a book that will knock your sox off read this one. It opens the door to a whole new reality that most don't even know exists or fully believe. Christian or not I would read it for your own good. Its a real I opener.

[roadwarrior]

Iran represents a "Clear and Present Danger."

The leaders of Iran have repeatedly called for the annihilation of the state of Isreal and have threatened the people of the United States. I am not interested in vengence or retribution for atrocities that have been instigated by Iran,

but I am unwilling to "respond" to a massive loss of life on American soil. I favor pre-emptive strategies including direct and decisive military action.

[Banor]

RW,

You and I would have an interesting and enjoyable day on the water.  ;D

I could enjoy 8 hours of smallie fishing amidst calls for pre-emptive strikes!

B

[Troutfisher]

RW, you and me seem to share the same thinking.  

[roadwarrior]

I'm going to stick with fishing topics, I have gotten way too worked up on this thread. I really hope things work out better than the way I perceive the situation. Perhaps our recent success with the negotiations on Korea will change the direction of the Iranian confrontation. I do not trust the North Koreans, but if this deal is real, it may lead to progress in other parts of the world.

The key to North Korea, it seems to me, is having a third party "sponsor." It appears that China stepped in with a very firm hand to redirect the talks. Could the Russians step in as a deal maker in the Middle East? I don't know.

No more posts for me here. Back to fishin' talk.

[paparock]

I have tried to make my explanations as detailed and complete as possible in a compacted manner so if anyone wants to understand the situation better then educate yourself firsthand rather than relying on the media or what I or anyone else says because there is no substitute for first had study. Therefore, I am joining you RW, as this is also my last post on this subject.

I pray for Peace and I am ready for War .

[Water Dog]

Papa Rock, you are a true scholar! Interesting discourse and you stayed on topic.

The leaders of Iran have repeatedly called for the annihilation of the state of Israel and have threatened the people of the United States. I am not interested in vengeance or retribution for atrocities that have been instigated by Iran

RW, I'll have to admit, I am interested in vengeance against the Iranians who have committed atrocities against our soldiers and citizens, that is a failing of mine.

I am unwilling to "respond" to a massive loss of life on American soil. I favor pre-emptive strategies including direct and decisive military action.

RW: Any terrorist act of any kind on our soil concerns me particularly a dirty bomb or clean bomb, any bomb.

Iran can not be allowed to possess "the bomb", given their mentality.  

[Dan:]

paparock, you are right, if you actually read the holy texts of Islam, they do have very aggressive and frightening language in places. The thing is that most muslims, the ones that are reasonable don't adhere to those portions. it's like how the bible says to stone your children for disobedience, etc, etc.

This thread (Chances of US and Iranian conflict?) was started in relation to Iran and one can not address that subject without addressing fundamental Islam as the country is ruled my Fanatic Islamic Religious Mullas and Imams that have total veto over all other forms of government. In Iran Islamic Law Rules, Period.

Excuse me but I have read the Bible from cover to cover and plus attended a Bible College and nowhere that I know of does it call for stoning your children for disobedience. Please if you are going to refer to a religions teachings quote them from text accurately as I did or you are falsely accusing people of things.

Disagreement is fine but let us at least be honest and as accurate as possible in our discourse. What you describe as not being reasonable is the basis of the two faiths Christianity and Islam. If you do not believe the doctrinal base of the faiths may I ask what the purpose of calling yourself a Christian or Muslim believer in Islam is other than just playing lip service. You can pick and choose different parts of different religions without espousing belief or calling one's self a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, etc.. It would seem rather hypocritical to call yourself a believer in a faith that you in fact do not believe in.

You said, "This is about Iran--how Iran has threatened allied countries and their pursuance of nuclear arms contradicting international law. Leave the debate about the other stuff out unless it actually is relevant." The fact that Iran is ruled by Islamic Religious Leaders that are over the elected leaders is directly relevant. That fact also makes those Islamic Leaders Religious beliefs directly relevant to the issue as they rule in accordance to Islamic Religious Law. These Islamic Rulers are also the ones making the decisions to send Iranian Revolutionary Guard soldiers into Iraq along with, weapons, specialized roadside munitions, and training terrorist insurgent forces inside Iraq. It seems to me you are the one that seems confused as to the true issues involved.

By unrelated topics, I was talking about Iraq and Vietnam, mainly. The muslim extremism is important in Iran because the government IS controlled by extremists. In this discussion, however, the debate of what fuels extremism isn't particularly important in my eyes.

BTW, quotes from the Bible. And just to say, I am all for practicing my religion of Christianity, but I'm not going to stone my children if they are rebellious. I'm sure the Lord would understand. For the most part, I agree though, we should adhere to our faiths by the letter as much as possible, but there are some things in the Bible that I don't think God would want us to do in modern times.

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. -- Deuteronomy 21:18-21

He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:17

"If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;" (Deuteronomy 22:22)

"Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 22:24)

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the , she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." (Leviticus 21:9)

[cart7t]

you are over-estimating our ability to be independent from other countries.

Exactly, we sold off our ability to independance from the world community years ago.  This country could be staggered financially pretty quickly.

[Troutfisher]

Question:  Would you rather we (the United States) wait for a terrorist attack and massive loss of life here on U.S soil, or would you rather the United States strike now and avoid further attacks?

[Fish Man]

100% trueget em b4 they can get us       <<<<all that needs to be said

[Troutfisher]

Preach it!  

[Dan:]

Question:  Would you rather we (the United States) wait for a terrorist attack and massive loss of life here on U.S soil, or would you rather the United States strike now and avoid further attacks?

there are other options than "striking now." we need to be absolutely sure that they are going to try to do us harm before we "strike" or otherwise we risk what is left of our international credibility which whether you like it or not IS important.

Iran is a much different situation than Iraq, a strike against them would require a lot more than what Iraq took in the way of ground troops, money, etc. It wouldn't be the same type of quick win (not saying we have "won" in Iraq, but referring to the original win against the formal Iraqi military)

[Troutfisher]

As far as other countries are concerned, you're either with us, or you're against us.

[Dan:]

If only it were actually that simple.

[CrazedL.IFisherman]

"As far as other countries are concerned, you're either with us, or you're against us."

Thats a good idea in theory yet you cannot just go around like a swarming bees nest and attack anyone who thretens you, politics and military strategies are much more complicated then that, if we act alone it just furthers anti-U.S sentiments, eventually you will not be able to fend everyone who hates us, its got to be some form of global backing, prevention of terrorism MUST be done with atleast some of the worlds most powerful countries alongside of us, yes i cannot stand how the U.N sits by and does nothing but guns ablazing is only going to bite us in the butt later on

[Troutfisher]

I agree that the UN should probably just be dissolved...it was a good idea at first, but now it's just pointless and a waste of money.