Gobal warming and its effects on fishing

[the ohh face]

Global Morning: The Myth

The same pseudo scientists that are screaming about global warming (always in need of a trendy hysterical cause) are the same suspects that were screaming about the coming of the new ice age not too long ago. A lot of you younger members will not remember this. It was the hot topic in Time magazine and all the other fake, phony, fraudulent media.  

As mentioned above, one volcanic eruption will undo billions of dollars that American taxpayers are paying to "save the enviroment". Not the world nations, just America. The socialists in this country, the biggest perpetrators of global warming, are more than happy to make America pay, and pay, and pay...

Well I thought it was the other way around, Global warming and the fact humans are causing it is accepted fact among the serious scientific community. The psuedo scientists are the ones calling it just a theory. There are some other theories out there to, gravity for example.

[Gatorbassman]

I'm a believer. Looks like it's just you and I Jim

Fluke- Any idea how many big money industries would buckle tomorrow morning if REAL sanctions were placed on "industrial" enterprises? Basically, energy as we know it would have to be re-invented or re-deployed to alternative sources. OIL, automotive, factories, yadda, yadda,....

The companies that could afford such an endeavor as to launch a satellite, are the same ones that would be decemated by it's success.

Yes, the earth has it's cycles. They are extremely slow cycles with interruptions of drastic events and then back to a crawl.

We are creating a drastic event. Sure, the Earth will survive, she's a tough old bugger. However, Oxygen based LIFE on Earth,....that's another story.

My .02

Oh yea, I bet the fishing will get better as the temps begin to increase (Roughly now) and then plummet like all forms of life around it.

Russ I see your point. I know of three individuals in the past 50 years who have developed vehicles that were 100% environmentally friendly, inexpensive to produce and don't use any type of patrolium product. All three of them wound up dead. We are an oil dependant world because we are forced to be.

One thing I forgot to mention is that my brother had the money. It was the government agencies that wouldn't touch it. NASA laughed at him and said that there was no way congress would approve of it.

[Guest avid]

I think that there is truth on both sides.

Yes, it is true that there are headlne grabbing doomsdayers who make ridiculous claims to get publicity.

Y2K being a recent and extreme example.

BUT - Let's also face the fact that when Billions of dollars are at stake, the big money guys who stand to lose their fortunes are going to try and discredit the critics. They will ridicule, imtimidate, buy off, confuse, fund favorable studies, and obfuscate to maintain their power and wealth. I don't necessarily blame them. I would probably do the similar things to keep what I have, but that's not the point. The point is that it is done.

The best example of that I can come up with is the tobacco industry. There was growing evidence of the dangers of cigarette smoke going back to the 1920's. The culminaton was the 1968 surgeons general report that made it clear that smoking is a leading cause of heart disease, pulmonary disease, and cancer.

The tobacco lobby fought these claims for decades using the tactics described before admitting to some of the truth.

Can you possibly imagine the energy giants with the Trillions of dollars at stake not doing the same thing?

The tobacco "solution" is not ideal, but IMHO is pretty good. They are admitting it's bad, positng warnings, and supporting medical research. Yet at the same time, the government, while responsibly protecting non-smokers from the dangers of second hand smoke, has wisely not imposed a smoking ban. This would be the equivalent of prohibition and we all saw what a failure that was.

So there are ways to maintain the jobs and wealth associated with a massive business venture, while protecting the world and it's inhabitants from the negative side effects. We just need to be honest, and creative.

Avid has spoken

P.S.  I think this is a real interesting thread, but I agree that it is better suited to the "Everything else" forum

[Pa Angler]

Without question the Earth goes through hot & cold cycles BUT..... to think that humans aren't adding to it is LUDICROUS!!!!! With over billon people, Mass use of autos and manufacturing that is used WE ARE ADDING TO IT. I don't know how much everyone has been paying attention BUT.... A large chunk broke away from the Atric the size of a small island they landed a chopper on it. The Artic and Anatric are both shrinking faster now then any peroid in Human history there is a certain amount of facts supporting global warming take away humans from the Earth the last 100 years and the climate would be without question not as it is today.

Chow

[Troutfisher]

we  never said pollution was good.we just don't think it's causing global warming.yes the earth is getting warmer.particulate emissions (smog) should cut down on sunlight and actually cool the earth.from what i have read mars is getting warmer also.there is no way we caused that.yes we should cut down on pollution.vehicle manufacturers are trying to do this now.yes there is more to be done. but if you think it's going to stop global warming you're kidding yourself.there are studies that show that the methane gas released when  cows flatulate does more to hurt ozone than motor vehicles.so should we kill all the livestock of the world?

My opinion is the same.

[Catt]

If all this scientific evidence were true the worst time period would have been during the 50's, 60's, and 70's when polluters was at their worst. Scientists can't accurately gauge any thing they can only guess at what they believe to be true. Scientists also believe the earth is millions of years old and yet carbon dating has been found to be inaccurate.

Carbon Dating: Carbon 14 dating is used on organic remains such as bones, wood and coal. It is strictly limited to short term dating of up to 30,000 years maximum. In fact, it is only probably reliable up to 3000 years. The Geochron laboratory in Massachusetts in America refuses to use it beyond three thousand years, claiming that it is unreliable beyond that

[Tom Bass]

We are all going to die....

[Pa Angler]

If all this scientific evidence were true the worst time period would have been during the 50's, 60's, and 70's when polluters was at their worst. Scientists can't accurately gauge any thing they can only guess at what they believe to be true. Scientists also believe the earth is millions of years old and yet carbon dating has been found to be inaccurate.

Carbon Dating: Carbon 14 dating is used on organic remains such as bones, wood and coal. It is strictly limited to short term dating of up to 30,000 years maximum. In fact, it is only probably reliable up to 3000 years. The Geochron laboratory in Massachusetts in America refuses to use it beyond three thousand years, claiming that it is unreliable beyond that

There are more vehicles on ther road today than the 50's, 60 & 70's and though there are less emitions they still produce heat into the atmosphere and they run hotter now then they did then. As far as manufacturing goes the reason why it has left this contry are 2 fold cheaper labor and NO RESTRICTIONS ON EMMISIONS now China is the world largest polluter with all it's manufacturing and have shown they don't care and world wide manufacturing is at an all time high. It's amazing how everyone wants to be in denial that humans aren't adding to global warming they say it's the cycle well I guess that's somewhat true when you consider humans are a part of nature but 70 degrees in Jan. in PA normal every year NOOOOOT!!!! get real. The truth is that mankind is causing to make it's own cycle more droughts and major climate changes that we are creating.

Chow

[Troutfisher]

We are all going to die....

Such a positive and uplifting theory  :  ;D

[chitwnbass]

So once again does anyone have any theories on how this will affect fishing????  If its going to get real warm all of a sudden can I expect to be able to start seeing population of peacock bass in lake michigan sometime soon???

[John Carter]

Up here on the St. Lawrence River, the SURFACE temperature was warmer last summer than previous years. While the surface temperature went into the middle 70's, the water temperature at the 30 and 40 foot levels hadn't changed more than 1 or 2 degrees warmer. There is such a hugh amount of water in this River and it is so deep in places (240 feet a short distance from my place) that global warming or whatever doesn't seem to have any effect on the temperatures at lower levels.

I would think the same to be true of Lake Michigan and other deep waters

Zebra Mussels have had a dramatic effect on the river. 20 years ago, visibility was about 10 feet in the water and now it is common to see bottom structure in 30 and 40 feet of water.

We are catching most of our smallmouth bass in 30 to 40 feet of water where I think they are relatively safe from those cormorants.

So far, no effect on the fishing from a global warming standpoint, except that it is getting better.

John

[roadwarrior]

John Carter,

Welcome aboard!

Slightly warmer and certainly clearer water is a boon for smallmouth. The effect on walley, salmon and lake trout populations remains to be seen.

[FIN-S-R]

Global warming.....A term consisting of chiefly 3 different components. To understand one must examine each component.

But first let me say this- water vapor is the biggest baddest greenhouse gas there is....PERIOD. We got lots of water on this here rock.

Component 1- Earths shifting axis- It is happening, it is normal, and we cant do a darn thing to jack with it...that is why ice is melting on both ends of this rock. It is sticking on the side opposite the side the melting is happening.

Component 2- Water Cycle- It melts, it evaporates, it falls. A more moist environment will have more weather variation...temps, rainfall etc. The water falls out of the "sky" cleans the air and dumps the pollutants into lakes and rivers that amazingly enough are the perfect place to remediate/tie up these pollutants...Just dont drink the water-HEHE

Component 3- The human factor- First of all let me say we are just plain arrogant to consider ourselves powerful enough to really jack with mother natures plans, BUT we are producing and inserting into the "system" more CO2 than in previously "RECORDED" history. Does this matter? Yes, locally, but globally I doubt it.

Now have said all of that I want to let you guys know that I worked for the EPA and the NRCS...the Gov. agencies who deal with Metro-industrial and Urban-Rural agriculture pollution issues, and rest assured that much is being done to preserve and conserve this rock the way it is, and not just here in the good ole' USA, but all around the globe.

Warm/Cold cycles will come and go, and some will be more severe or less severe than others, and there will be sub cycles in those cycles, and sub sub cycles. Its all way too complex to figure out or predict, but understand that mother nature is amazing in her ability to clean up the "damage" we do.

Ultimately all we can do is be smart responsible stewards of the resources we have. There are no conspiracies between big oil and the govt. There is no environmental armogedan at hand. If you want somthing to worry about, worry about another clinton in the whitehouse or some nut case with a bomb or driving down the street.

So all of this means what for fishing? Absolutely nothing in the life time of anyone on this forum or your children's children, in a global sense. You can kill the crap out of some fish by introducing alien species or dumping toxic crap like used oil into the H2O. These we can control, and these are to be worried about, not the Gore catch phrases.

[Water Dog]

Fin, you might be on to something... ;D

[Guest avid]

We are all going to die....

Such a positive and uplifting theory : ;D

Ain't no theory son.  It is the only "absolute truth" I know of.

[Troutfisher]

I am a Christian, though, and I believe in eternal life.  I was merely pointing out this message and how it isn't much of a theory.  

[Low_Budget_Hooker]

I don't know how much everyone has been paying attention BUT.... A large chunk broke away from the Atric the size of a small island they landed a chopper on it. Chow

I think you misread that. That chunk was larger than RHODE Island!! A state!

I am a Christian, though, and I believe in eternal life.  I was merely pointing out this message and how it isn't much of a theory.  

What message?  That we are all going to die?  You're right, not much of a theory,...much more of a fact.

[Troutfisher]

Well, yeah, of course it's a fact, but I as stated, although it is true you die, if you are a Christian, your spiritual body goes to heaven where it will never die. JMO Don't have to believe what I do.

[Catt]

Scientist get paid with grants, no controversial theories, no grants

I think the earth will be just fine until Jesus come again then there will be hell to pay  ;D

[FIN-S-R]

By the By...I am a one of those Scientist Types, Not a psuedo-scientist, a real bona-fide got a degree or 2 or 3 in this whole study of our rock scientist type, And you can take this to the bank!!!

Global warming.....A term consisting of chiefly 3 different components. To understand one must examine each component.

But first let me say this- water vapor is the biggest baddest greenhouse gas there is....PERIOD. We got lots of water on this here rock.

Component 1- Earths shifting axis- It is happening, it is normal, and we cant do a darn thing to jack with it...that is why ice is melting on both ends of this rock. It is sticking on the side opposite the side the melting is happening.

Component 2- Water Cycle- It melts, it evaporates, it falls. A more moist environment will have more weather variation...temps, rainfall etc. The water falls out of the "sky" cleans the air and dumps the pollutants into lakes and rivers that amazingly enough are the perfect place to remediate/tie up these pollutants...Just dont drink the water-HEHE

Component 3- The human factor- First of all let me say we are just plain arrogant to consider ourselves powerful enough to really jack with mother natures plans, BUT we are producing and inserting into the "system" more CO2 than in previously "RECORDED" history. Does this matter? Yes, locally, but globally I doubt it.

Now have said all of that I want to let you guys know that I worked for the EPA and the NRCS...the Gov. agencies who deal with Metro-industrial and Urban-Rural agriculture pollution issues, and rest assured that much is being done to preserve and conserve this rock the way it is, and not just here in the good ole' USA, but all around the globe.

Warm/Cold cycles will come and go, and some will be more severe or less severe than others, and there will be sub cycles in those cycles, and sub sub cycles. Its all way too complex to figure out or predict, but understand that mother nature is amazing in her ability to clean up the "damage" we do.

Ultimately all we can do is be smart responsible stewards of the resources we have. There are no conspiracies between big oil and the govt. There is no environmental armogedan at hand. If you want somthing to worry about, worry about another clinton in the whitehouse or some nut case with a bomb or driving down the street.

So all of this means what for fishing? Absolutely nothing in the life time of anyone on this forum or your children's children, in a global sense. You can kill the crap out of some fish by introducing alien species or dumping toxic crap like used oil into the H2O. These we can control, and these are to be worried about, not the Gore catch phrases.

[nboucher]

Wow, I just discovered this thread, and am struck by the cynicism of so many of you, who seem to believe that science is motivated entirely by self-interest and greed.

 

Many of the issues raised here are not about global warming. Yes, the geological record shows large swings in temps, ice ages, etc., but that doesn't disprove what is meant by global warming: an unprecedented RATE of temperature change that perfectly coincides with the onset of industrialization.

I am not a scientist, but from what I understand, the core samples that present a pretty detailed map of climate change through eons have not shown any such RAPID rise in average global temps. Previous changes happened at a rate that more or less allowed most species of animals to adapt, or at least to go extinct over hundreds or thousands of yearsnot 20. The original topic here was the effect of global warming on fishing: there is a paper in the latest Science that examined some saltwater fish species and found that rapid warming of the water causes oxygen levels to drop precipitously, killing fish before they can adapt. As this suggests, the effects of global warming show up first at the coldest and warmest extremes: some hot bodies of water will not have the oxygen to support many fish, and already arctic ice is melting so quickly now that the average weight of polar bears is dropping because they no longer have enough time on the ice to fatten up sufficiently. (The Bush Interior Dept is considering listing polar bears as a threatened species as a result.) Again, what suggests that this is not a "natural" occurrence is the suddenness of the weight drop. If we were alive as an ice age approached, we wouldn't be able to observe these changes during a generation, as we are observing them now.

The other piece of the global warming picture is that, given the ever-increasing amount of carbon being put into the atmosphere as the world becomes increasingly industrial, there is not going to be any cooling until that changes. In other words, this isn't part of a cycle because a cycle suggests it's going to come down again at some point. If this warming is triggered by industrialization, it ain't going to cool down again unless we lower the amount of carbon we add to the atmosphereand that's not likely to happen until we either (1) get off a carbon-based economy or (2) humans go extinct. My money says neither of those things is going to happen soon in part because so many people don't "believe" in global warming.

I totally agree that environmentalists and others have scared us in the past with all kinds of false or passing threatsthus the cynicism. They've cried  wolf so often that we've lost the ability to recognize a true wolf when it shows up. But there are two real environmental wolves skulking around these days: the increasingly rapid rate of species extinction and the unprecedented rate of what appears to be a permanent warming of the planet.

[Dan:]

The other piece of the global warming picture is that, given the ever-increasing amount of carbon being put into the atmosphere as the world becomes increasingly industrial, there is not going to be any cooling until that changes. In other words, this isn't part of a cycle because a cycle suggests it's going to come down again at some point. If this warming is triggered by industrialization, it ain't going to cool down again unless we lower the amount of carbon we add to the atmosphereand that's not likely to happen until we either (1) get off a carbon-based economy or (2) humans go extinct. My money says neither of those things is going to happen soon in part because so many people don't "believe" in global warming.

That is assuming that the gases we are emitting is causing the warming...We don't know if it is or not.

[roadwarrior]

I posted this earlier on this thread, but to restate:

The climate may continue to warm as the CURRENT ice age comes to a close. The "last ice age" may have peaked 10,000 years ago, but its remnants are still with us today. The CURRENT ice age is not over.

[FIN-S-R]

There is a natural mechanism to buffer this planet's climate, it is called water. On a global scale we do not lose or gain any, it is a static volume due to one of the laws which govern our natural world, you may have heard of it, it goes something like this- in a system energy and mass remain constant, they may change form, but the amount available of each cannot be changed. Water may change forms, but we cant lose or gain any in a global sense.

Ok maybe your wondering why I am harping so much on water, this is because it is the mechanism mother nature uses to clean, renew, preserve, and fuel the climate. We can dump all the CO2 into the air we want, and although it may have a profound localized pollution effect, or even a slight global pollution effect, it cannot jack with the general timeline or trend that will be ultimately realized anyway.

You may see localized effects in some isolated areas, but GLOBALLY we cant jack up the system at the rate we are going. Mother nature always throws in a correction factor. You will see this if you closely examine the information on deep ice, and deep geological coring throughout the world. There are episodes of elevated carbon production and accumulation, followed by episodes of system purge and clean periods. The tropical forests in the world will produce the majority of carbon that gets assimilated into the atmospere, our cars produce some, but its a drop in the bucket.

Temps will rise and fall, oceans will rise and fall, there is little or nothing we can do to influence these natural phenom. globally, but we can take care of the spot we use every day to eak out a living or come home to. Responsible stewradship of the resources we have is ALL we can do.

If you must worry, worry about what your kids are watchin'n TV or pickin' up at school. There is a more probable threat that a fuel truck crash dumped into your favorite lake will hurt the fishing than global warming, and how often has your favorite lake been sterilized by such.

Know the science, and if you dont then learn it, if you wont then dont profess to have informed opinions. Thats how Gore got this whole mess started in the first place!!!

[nboucher]

You guys didn't read my post. Yes, we are at the end of the last ice age. Yes, water is the critical offsetting factor. Yes, I monitor my kid's TV viewing, etc. But, sorry, if you're suggesting I should only worry about what's in my backyard, that's just ain't how I was raised.

The RATE of change was not seen at the end of any other ice age. The RATE does not allow biological adaptation to keep up; that's the danger. Your points are valid if you can show me another period in geologic time when the RATE of change was as rapid or even on the same temporal scale.

The cars are part of it; coal-based power-generation is another big factor (which is why nuclear should get another look, IMHO). Fin, you make my point by describing the more or less constant volume of water. What if the production rises to a point where the constant volume of water can't keep up?

Gore who?? Politicians will grab whatever issues they can to get elected; that doesn't mean the issues aren't worth serious discussion or the problems don't exist.

I gotta get back to work!