Saddam Executed

[fishingJ]

Come down everyone I was trying to use some sarcasm. I am french so I might not have expressed it perfectly in english. So don't worry,  it was a joke.

[Guest avid]

Troutfisher.  Your a young guy and highly motivated politically.  This is good.

But I think you are so convinced of what you think I am saying, that you fail to see what it is I am actually saying.

for example.  No reasonable person who read my post about the presidents so called "complicity" in 9/11 could possibly believe that I agreed with that stamement.

Also, earlier when I was talking about a "history of enlightened self interest and compassion toward our defeated enemies etc." I was talking about the USA not Iraq.

I am not the enemy.

But I not naive.  

The government, OUR government, YOUR government, has lied to us in the past, It may do so again.  That is the greatness of America.  Being able to question and investigate, and seek the truth, no matter how powerful the interests are. Be they democrat or republican, business, or religeous.  

It is why the constitution of the United States of America with it's associated Bill of Rights, though flawed in some significant ways, remains the most shining example of self governance the world has ever known.

I urge you to open your mind.  Watch CNN, read the NY times.  Then watch Fox, and read the Christian Science monitor.  Get both sides.  Think for yourself.  Make informed decisions.  I think you will be happy to find out that you will be as conservative then as you are now.  

[fishingJ]

First of all  I was kidding but let me straighten some things out. None of you know the truth nor do I. Fox news is entirely propaganda. Your gouvernment tells them what to say and they say it. I am informed by the way and calling me ignorant is being ignorant yourself. Bin Laden's family and Bush's family are very close, all the gold stored under the towers was taken away before they collapsed, Bush has taken all the oil from the countries he has invaded, the list goes on. I am simply being open to both sides. And calling living in Canada like growing mushrooms in your basement, first of all we aren't the country being threatened by all these other countries, we aren't the country with brutal ghettos in every city that are mostly filled with minority groups, we aren't the country called the melting pot that strips everyone of their culture, and your saying we are stupid for taking guns of the streets? You are obviously not informed about your murder rates related to guns and violence and all of your street problems. So don't make fun of my country when your the ones with the real problems. I am in no way supporting Bin Laden or Saddam or there countries by any means, nor am I supporting Bush,  I'm simply being open to the facts that are presented by both sides. I was not trying to start a war by making those statements, and was simply excercising my freedom of speach that so many people are afraid to use. You make fun of Canada and say that your country is the shining light, sure it is when you only look at the good things and pretend all the bad things don't exist, which is exactly what you do.

[fishingJ]

Everyone should read avid's statements first of all. I am only trying to make discussion, althought it may be heated discussion and discussion that may be very frustrating for ignorant people, it is still discussion and that is the beauty of democracy. And for everyone's information I don't live in the states.

[Alpster]

Ok, this post is getting rabid.

[No doubt about it!

There is nothing wrong with questioning the government.  

Agreed!

It is validated recorded history that the excuse for Viet Nam namely the North Vietnamese attack on the US Navy in the gulf of Tonkein never happened and the government knew it.

Who gets to "validate and record" revisionist history? The vietnamese war was about stopping the percieved spread of communism in Asia and there were no excuses for entering it.

 

It is also recorded fact that the Republican Parties 'committee to reelect the president' i.e. Nixons reelection campaign had paid thugs who committed felonies including breaking and entering, burglary, illegal wiretap, document fraud, extorsion, obstruction of justice and perjury, to name a few.

Watergate had nothing to do with the Vietnam or Iraq conflicts. It was during Nixon's administration that the war ended.!??

$40,000,000.00 of taxpayer dollars was spent by the Starr commission trying to bring down the presidency of Bill Clinton.

Bill Clinton had several opportunities to eleiminate OSB and chose not to. As irrelevant to this discussion as Nixon.

The Vietnam conflict cannot be compared to the Jihad against America and Western Culture. The Vietnam conflict was about govenment systems. The Jihad between Islamic radicals and Christians is 1000s of years old and will not be resolved diplomatically. It is only a matter of time before we see suicide bombers in our local shopping malls. No ones lofty ideals will prevent it. JMHO

BTW- I love you Avid and I can't wait to meet you!

Ronnie

[K_Mac]

Guys, I did not say that the execution was undeserved. I am simply questioning the merit of capital punishment in our society. I think there is room for discussion on this subject. Do not assume that because I question capital punishment that I am one who thinks we should coddle terrorists or mass murderers. I am not.

I also believe that you can question why we are in Iraq and the decision-making that took place that led to our being there, but now that we are there we have a responsibility to the finish the job. I supported the decision to go, and still support giving our military everything they need to complete their mission. The problem here is I don't know what finishing the job means at this point. This is another subject that is worthy of discussion, but tends to be very divisive.

These are not conservative or liberal issues: They are American issues. God bless America.

[Grey Wolf]

Avid , I couldn't agree with you more. What makes us so great of a country is our right to voice our opinions.

Our government over the years have made some diasterous decisions and some great decisions.

Are we un-american if we voice our opinions for or against our governments policies . I think not.

For you people who thinks that people who critize our government officials are anti-american (love it or leave it ) then maybe you should leave it.

Open your minds . Be objective to whats going on around you. Don't hate your neighbor just because he doesn't agree with you.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Troutfisher]

Fox news is entirely propaganda. Your gouvernment tells them what to say and they say it. I am informed by the way and calling me ignorant is being ignorant yourself. Bin Laden's family and Bush's family are very close, all the gold stored under the towers was taken away before they collapsed, Bush has taken all the oil from the countries he has invaded, the list goes on.

Fox News is in no way propaganda any more than CNN is.  Stating that the gold stored from under the towers before Osama could blow them up is a complete and entirely false statement.  That is an utterly ridiculous statement, as is saying that the only reason President Bush invaded Iraq to get oil.  If that's the case, then why are gas prices high?  :

and your saying we are stupid for taking guns of the streets? You are obdviously not informed about your murder rates related to guns and violence and all of your street problems. So don't make fun of my country when your the ones with the real problems

When you take guns away from honest citizens, first off, if you did that in America, it would be in violation of the second amendment, and secondly, if you take guns away from law abiding citizens, then how are they to defend themselves against thieves who do have guns?  Think about it.  If you say for everyone to give up their guns, do you think that criminals would be all too happy to agree and turn theirs in as well?  :

I urge you to open your mind.  Watch CNN, read the NY times.  Then watch Fox, and read the Christian Science monitor.  Get both sides.  Think for yourself.  Make informed decisions.  I think you will be happy to find out that you will be as conservative then as you are now.  

Our family as a whole does in fact listen to CNN and read the New York Times from time to time, and we do get both sides...what I'm saying is a reasonable assumption:  CNN and other forms of media are more liberal, Fox news is more conservative.   I'd like to apologize for mis-interpreting the statement about Iraq when you said that America was a fine, self-enlightened country.  I'm glad that we can be gentlemen and have a little bit of honest debate.  

[Guest avid]

Well Ronnie,

For a guy who doesn't use alot of words, you sure do say alot.

I had thought that I would have my rant and say goodbye to this thread, but since you seemed to have addressed your post to me it would be rude not to respond.

Points one and two we agree on.

3. Revisionist history is not necessarily incorrect history.  Things often surface long after events have unfolded. That being said, I agree there is no doubt that the goal in Viet-Nam was to stop the spread of Communism.  This was US policy dating back to Eisenhower.  But  the role of the US had largely been one of support.  First for the French then for the South Viet Namese government. True the number of "advisor" had grown under JFK, but it was Gulf of Tonkein "incident" that led to the "Tonkein Gulf Resolution" which allowed  president Johnson to massively escalate our involvement and make it essentially an American war.

4.  My comments regarding Watergate were not off topic, IMO.  It was suggested that certain newspapers and other news venues, be avoided.  I was using Watergate to demonstrate the visionary wisdom of the founding fathers to gurarantee a free press. President Nixon's abuses were exactly what the press freedom was designed to do.

5.  President Clintons debacle with the Starr commision was an illustration of how the axe swings both ways.  Nothing more.

Finally, your chilling assesment that "The Vietnam conflict cannot be compared to the Jihad against America and Western Culture. The Vietnam conflict was about govenment systems. The Jihad between Islamic radicals and Christians is 1000s of years old and will not be resolved diplomatically. It is only a matter of time before we see suicide bombers in our local shopping malls. No ones lofty ideals will prevent it. JMHO"  is in fact a terrifying scenario.  There is no denying the historical validation of this point.  However inevitable it may seem to some, there are others who believe that Armageddon can be avoided.  

There were many Americans who thought that Nuclear war between the US and Soviet Union was inevitable.  They pointed to ideologies and biblical references that supported their claim.  Lord knows we came close.  But somehow reason often prevails over dogma and the world keeps turning.

I would say "I love you too" Ronnie, but I don't want people thinking were going to Lake fork just to swap spit in your love bus, I mean bass buss.  

Your good people dude.  

See you at the fork.

avid

[SPEEDBEAD.]

Everyone should read avid's statements first of all. I am only trying to make discussion, althought it may be heated discussion and discussion that may be very frustrating for ignorant people, it is still discussion and that is the beauty of democracy. And for everyone's information I don't live in the states.

Who is you callin' ignernt?   j/k   ;D

[fishingJ]

Troutfisher you are politically motivated and seem to be all for bush's government. You need to be more open to oposing ideas. You say my arguments are invalid statements ,only because you believe what FOX news is saying entirely and what bush tries to make people believe you believe, not to say that these sources are incorrect because you, nor I will ever know, but that is why you can't be so certain of what you believe because the reality is you don't know. Say bush did take all the oil and tried to cover it up, do you think he'd lower the gas prices because he has a huge supply, no because that would make people think he went in for the oil and is lying to his people, he would jack up prices first of all to make people believe he didn't take the oil, and secondly to make more money. You have to remember in today's society people are driven entirely by profit. Health, honesty, and fairness rank way lower when it comes to what is most important for people.

[senile1]

Every single one of these threads which revolve around the politics of foreign relations evolves into democrats bashing republicans and republicans bashing democrats.  (Or conservatives bashing democrats and vice versa.)  democrats rip Fox news but they don't see the bias of CNN.  Conservatives rip CNN but they don't see the bias of Fox news.  democrats always want to mention Nixon when they talk about Vietnam.  Conservatives always want to mention President Johnson when Vietnam is the subject.  Why don't you all try reading the columns and watching the network you hate and just listen to it for a few weeks.  You'll find some truth that is good and some that is bad regarding your favorite party or politicians. Objectivity is becoming a lost art in America.    

Mellow out guys.  We're all American fishermen.  We're all on the same side.  We just have different ideas about how to accomplish the same goals.  

[fishingrulz]

What makes you so sure saddam and bin laden did anything and it wasn't all bush like a lot of evidence points to?

I think I figured out what fishingJ is trying to say here. I'M NOT TAKING SIDES I'M JUST TRYING TO HELP CLARIFY WHAT HES TRYING TO SAY BECAUSE YOU CAN'T HEAR HIS TONE OF VOICE SEE HIS BODY LANGUAGE ETC. BECAUSE OF THE INTERNET.

Now, I don't belive he is saying that Bush planned the attacks on 9/11 and that he tried to cover it up or anything. What he is saying is Saddam could have done it, Bin Laden could have done it, or Bush could have done it. Your never going to know 100% because you aren't either of these men. Hes saying that its up to everyone to decide for themselves.

Maybe if I rephrase it. fishingJ let me know if this is what you meant or not.

Saddam and Bin Laden could have done it, but what makes you so sure? Bush could have planned the whole thing. I'm not saying he did but its a possibility and something to consider as well rather than just tossing it aside and ruling it out before you look into it.

I think thats what he meant...or something alone those lines.

[senile1]

Very interesting.  On my last post every time I typed in the word liberal in quotes, the word, democrat, was entered in its place on the post.  I don't necessarily think the two are synonymous.  

[5bass]

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