Pa Fish and Boat Commission Voting on C&R Season on Susky and Juniata Rivers

[NateFollmer]

http://www.fishandboat.com/newsreleases/2010press/bass_cr.htm

I hope this passes. We need to give these fish a break and let them grow their numbers! What do you guys think? I'd like to see it extended further up the Juniata. I'd even go as far to say they should close the season during spawn...

[mikesjet]

This will be the second time around for this.  I remember quite a few years ago it was open all year on rivers and streams and closed on lakes.  Then they shut it down and now you can fish all year again everywhere.  I don't think the fish get anywhere near the pressure during the spawn as what everyone thinks.  I have fished during the spawn this year for the first time and I bet I didn't see 10 boats out on the lake.

[bweldon]

Just got back into fishing this year after taking 30 years off. I had never bass fished before and caught my first ones this year. My lady and I fish along Long Level for a few hours almost every evening. We always practice catch and release. I believe anything that helps bass or any other species improve is fine with me.

[RobbyZ5001]

http://www.fishandboat.com/newsreleases/2010press/bass_cr.htm

I hope this passes. We need to give these fish a break and let them grow their numbers! What do you guys think? I'd like to see it extended further up the Juniata. I'd even go as far to say they should close the season during spawn...

Well a little bit of background of me before I put my.02 in. I have followed this issue for quite awhile. I have listened to meetings on this issue as well as spoke with Dave Miko about the issue.

A few points off the bat. The decrease in YOY SM have been recorded for quite awhile now. This has been a known issue for a long time, but the last few years have been very bad. Columnaris is a disease that can be brought on by stressors. From what I had gathered there is no "smoking gun". There is no point source pollution they can take care of. It is not the nitrogen or the phosphorus solely, it is a combined effect (this is an example). The lack of YOY survivorship is documented in the Juniata river as well as other places to some extent.

Catch and release is great, but the problem will still not be fixed. Will it help to some extent? Possibly... Is there still a significant problem that no one knows the cause of? Yes... In my opinion this move could be to make the public happy, and not as much as a biologist choice. This is just a guess. I have not spoke with the biologists about the subject recently, because I have been in WY working. I will be scrounging for some updated info though.

Nate your stirring up a can of worms with the last comment about closing the spawn. That fight could go on for years.

[J Francho]

Good post Robbie.

I'm actually pretty aware of this debate, through River Smallies, KBF, and personal relationships with guides on both rivers. I don't know enough about what's going on to form a detailed stance, but I've always been of the opinion that unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the MAIN source of the problem is recreational angling pressure, then NOTHING should be put in place to prohibit recreational angling. My understanding of river environments is that its very dynamic, and it isn't unusual to see these radical fluctuations in data. Lakes seem to ebb and flow in much slower and predictable cycles.

Please, this can get really hot fast. Keep it about sharing and working together to make fishing better.

[RobbyZ5001]

Good post Robbie.

I'm actually pretty aware of this debate, through River Smallies, KBF, and personal relationships with guides on both rivers. I don't know enough about what's going on to form a detailed stance, but I've always been of the opinion that unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the MAIN source of the problem is recreational angling pressure, then NOTHING should be put in place to prohibit recreational angling. My understanding of river environments is that its very dynamic, and it isn't unusual to see these radical fluctuations in data. Lakes seem to ebb and flow in much slower and predictable cycles.

Please, this can get really hot fast. Keep it about sharing and working together to make fishing better.

One of the main reasons I believe they are doing this more for the public is because of the guides. The susky has many guides, and many of them are pushing for c&r only.

I will also agree with you, for the most part about rivers being more dynamic. I think the biggest problem with rivers are that they span great distances. Look at the susky, the Delaware, the Hudson, hell look at the Mississippi. They will go through many different areas such as residential, woodlands, industrial, ect.. It is hard to fix something that could be spread out over 100's of miles. Such as the leakage of a pollutant, or runoff from agriculture. Sometimes even if the biologists know the problem it won't be corrected, because of the almighty dollar. For instance, Wyoming is huge in cattle grazing. Cattle grazing is detrimental beyond imagination to the habitat. State and federal organizations know this, but they can't just stop it completely. They need to do damage control the best they can so fish and cattle can coincide. I won't get into all this, but it's just an example. I am sure some of you can think of similar situations. Sorry for rambling....

[SPEEDBEAD.]

Nate, no fishing during the spawn?  That is when they are easiest to get with the gig... ;D

I have absolutely zero biological knowledge of how river systems and lakes work.  I DO know that any limits placed on my fishing choices are not what I want to see. Like Mikesjet, I believe that the spawn time fishing pressure assumed by many is, in fact, nonexistent.  Most of the boats I see during this time are fishing for trout (or anything that will bite) and not specifically targeting bass.

[NateFollmer]

Nate, no fishing during the spawn? That is when they are easiest to get with the gig... ;D

I have absolutely zero biological knowledge of how river systems and lakes work. I DO know that any limits placed on my fishing choices are not what I want to see. Like Mikesjet, I believe that the spawn time fishing pressure assumed by many is, in fact, nonexistent. Most of the boats I see during this time are fishing for trout (or anything that will bite) and not specifically targeting bass.

I know I'm going to catch heat for saying that, but I'm not going to argue my point any further, it's just my opinion The fish are under enough stress from everything else, why stress them further during spawn?

Honestly, I DON'T think this is going to help much, but it's a step in the right direction. I was in a rush when I posted this and didn't get my points explained, so it sounds a little... harsh, so I apologize for that.

You guys should see all the campers and other anglers along the river where I live. You see them pulling stringers out all the time. There's almost no presents of the commission in that area though, so even if they do extend it to my area, it probably won't be enforced. I know I haven't been catching the numbers I used to. Yet, when I went on a recent trip further up the river (a less populated area), I was amazed at the numbers of fish I saw. Could it be that the sparse population is simply polluting less? Maybe... Or it could be because the fish are being harvested less... I guess we will see how this helps.

Robby, I'll agree with you on the cattle run off, it really hits the trout hard and I'm sure the bass are effected also (isn't our area the #1 polluter of the Chesapeake?). I don't think C&R is the only answer, but again, maybe it will get the wheel's turning... Anyway, ramble on, that's why I started this thread, I was curious what everyone else thinks about this. I know a lot of you (most of you probably) know more details about this than I do, so the more you ramble, the more I'll learn I shouldn't have been so quick to take a side on this issue.

[J Francho]

It gets real sticky when you start blaming bad fishing on other anglers, even meat hunters.  That divides us, and as a group that is constantly being taxed, regulated, and pushed aside, division is not a good thing.

[NateFollmer]

Your right J, but what do you do when some of us cannot practice responsible angling? We can't just turn the other way. I'm not trying to say harvesting fish is killing the population, but some people are taking it to extremes.

Example, there's a string of camp sites along what used to be a productive stretch of river. Every year the same people get these sites and we would constantly see them pulling out bass and keeping them. Last year I didn't see these people at these sites and guess what else wasn't there... the fish... This season I see that they have moved up river and a few times I have seen them taking fish yet again...

I'm not saying it's completely their fault, but they aren't a small group either and even if they all just took their limit, that's still a lot of fish that could be reproducing.

[BadKarma42]

Could any of this be related to run off from the Marcellious (sp.?) Shale drilling operation?  Possibly a pre-emptive thing?

Just wondering outloud.

[RobbyZ5001]

Nate,

My statement on agriculture was just an example. I am sure it is a problem, but I have no clue to what extent.

There is nothing wrong with anglers keeping fish. In fact, when working I will encourage them to keep fish. I think anglers should read more about selective harvesting. I have seen reports of a decrease in harvest for quite a long time now.

I am not sure that people are aware of how high the post release mortality of a fish is either. I don't know the numbers off hand for just fun fishing c&r mortality, but for a tournament the studies I have read show a 30% post release mortality. I know this doesn't demonstrate what you may be doing, but it just shows that it happens without knowing. As for the fish not being there after seeing people fish it time after time. There could be something that your not seeing making the fish leave. It could be food source, water quality, habitat, etc.. I think it's obvious, but I will state it anyway. Areas with higher fishing pressure will typically have less fish, or they will be harder to catch making them appear to be less in numbers. That is only area not the river as a whole. Trying to extrapolate one little area to compare to the river is erroneous. Anyway those are some thoughts...

[J Francho]

30% mortality means 70% survival.  I'll take those odds for the fish I catch.  That sounds better than 100% in a bucket, or nailed to a leader board.  We do our best to improve those numbers, but really simply by releasing those fish, there is at least an opportunity.

"No fish ever became a trophy in a frying pan."  -Bob Lusk.

As far as meat hunters go.  Who cares?  No really, they typically do not catch as much as you think.  Nate, if your river spot was so good, then it would have refilled with new fish.  Yes, a group of anglers can disrupt a spot, but not permanently.

Fishing for spawning bass in rivers, hmmm.  I don't fish rivers.  I'm not going there, LOL.

[NateFollmer]

Good stuff here guys, thanks for keeping it civil

I've heard a mixed bag about this but what impact do you think muskie stocking has on bass populations? They stock a lot of muskie in both of these rivers. I can't see it having that big of an impact but some people claim it does.

[RobbyZ5001]

30% mortality means 70% survival. I'll take those odds for the fish I catch. That sounds better than 100% in a bucket, or nailed to a leader board. We do our best to improve those numbers, but really simply by releasing those fish, there is at least an opportunity.

"No fish ever became a trophy in a frying pan." -Bob Lusk.

John,

I completely agree with you. I just wanted to show that releasing fish still adds to mortality. I think that most anglers thoughts are that if they release the fish it WILL live.

That is also a great quote by Bob Lusk.

Nate,

what size and how many musky do they stock? Are they hybrid or will they be reproducing?

[SPEEDBEAD.]

Good stuff here guys, thanks for keeping it civil

I've heard a mixed bag about this but what impact do you think muskie stocking has on bass populations? They stock a lot of muskie in both of these rivers. I can't see it having that big of an impact but some people claim it does.

As far as competition for food or predation on the bass themselves?

The area of the Potomac I have been fishing this year is overflowing with both smallmouth and musky.  Baitfish are abundant as well.

Honestly, sometimes I think a water body either has "it" or not.  That can change and what once was an amazing fishery could fall off for a certain amount of time.  It could also rebound and be better than before, with or without human intervention.

So many suppositions when it comes to these things.  All of a sudden people think they have the problem pegged and mother nature throws a little curveball at them.

[NateFollmer]

Robby,

They have them under two categories, Muskie and Tiger Muskie... I'm assuming the Muskie can breed and the Tigers cannot... They dropped 1,000 to 2,000 in the Juniata near Raystown and usually only 200 in the other areas.

Well that kind of kills all the negative effects people think the muskie have... The smallies are in better shape in the areas that received more muskie!

[mikesjet]

My comment is going to sting some people also. 

  I have witnessed people in tourneys at Raystown that have no respect for their quarry.  Helpers throwing fishing into the water and them bouncing off of the rocks and the concrete ramp.  Mid summer I saw at least 12 nice 2.5 -3lb fish floating around the dock at James Creek.  I know this isn't a discussion of Raystown, but there are a lot of tournaments on the Susky as well throughout the year.  I know at Raystown there is a tourney almost every Friday and Saturday out of James Creek during the Season opens and during the summer.

[Grey Wolf]

My comment is going to sting some people also.

I have witnessed people in tourneys at Raystown that have no respect for their quarry. Helpers throwing fishing into the water and them bouncing off of the rocks and the concrete ramp. Mid summer I saw at least 12 nice 2.5 -3lb fish floating around the dock at James Creek. I know this isn't a discussion of Raystown, but there are a lot of tournaments on the Susky as well throughout the year. I know at Raystown there is a tourney almost every Friday and Saturday out of James Creek during the Season opens and during the summer.

Shhhhhh , you only supposed to tell about the positive side of tournament fishing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!