Why so flippin long?

[tyrius.]

Why is it easier to lift a fish, or anything on a stick if the fulcrum and the point of effort are farther apart? I mean, why bother putting the butt of the rod in your gut, or on tuna rigs, in the lap harness if it doesn't offer an advantage? Are most using the wrong term? Is there another term? You can't possibly convince me that no handle is the same as a long handle.

I think we went right past each other.  The distance between the point of effort and the fulcrum is not the same as the distance between the point of effort and the "load". 

My point was that increasing the distance between the point of effort (your hands when the rod is in your gut) and the load provides LESS leverage.  Given two rods with the same length handle the longer rod will provide less leverage than the shorter one. 

However to your point above, given two equal length rods where one has a longer handle than the other, the one with the longer handle will give the angler MORE leverage.  In this instance the point of effort/hands is closer to the load/rod tip. 

Did you see the length of the handles on those Tuna Stick rods?  They combine a very long handle with a short rod to provide the angler with as much leverage as possible, which actually means decreases the mechanical disadvantage of the third class lever as much as possible.

[J Francho]

That was my original point. Most flipping sticks are longer because they add length at the handle. My 7-6 XH stick is actually shorter from the reel seat to the tip than any of my 7 footers. It is about leverage, as long as the geometry supports it, e.g. a longer handle that you actually use.

[ArcticCat500]

not to step on any toes but,

Red, if your pulling 6lbers and such out of cover like that with a 6.6, then why feel the need for change?  Years ago all we ever fished were 6's n 6'6's.....if your gear is putting pigs like that in the boat then I see no need to go longer.  I have one rod thats over 7ft,

GLoomis BCR864 I bought soley for the use with big frogs off my kayak, I learned having a little longer rod on the kayak is benificial, but everything else is under that.  Its your choice.

[tyrius.]

That was my original point. Most flipping sticks are longer because they add length at the handle. My 7-6 XH stick is actually shorter from the reel seat to the tip than any of my 7 footers. It is about leverage, as long as the geometry supports it, e.g. a longer handle that you actually use.

That would be one hella long handle!!  Is it like 16"?  I hadn't ever seen a flipping stick like that.  Most of the ones that I've looked at (as I said I don't own one) have a slightly longer handle in the 7'6" vs the 7', but not significantly longer (like an inch).

[J Francho]

I'll measure the new one when I get home.

I was going to look for a pic of the old one, but none show it clearly.  I'd say its at least 12"+.  Its definitely longer than any other rod I own.  here is a pic of my salmon spinning rod, clearly showing the ridiculous handle, so necessary for bracing against their blistering runs.  It's a 9.5, but feels more like an 8.5 with a Michigan Grip.

Handle length is why I chose my AVC62MXF for jerkbaits.  I had a 6'er for this, but always felt I could use a couple extra inches from the reel forward.  The 6'6" rods offered this, but 1/2 the increase was in the handle, and that got in the way.  Found the 6-2, and life was grand.

[Skeet22]

This is easier to understand than we are making it. Simply put the closer your hands are to the rod tip the more leverage you have on the fish. The closer the rod tip is to the fish the easier it is to work the fish out of cover hence the need for a balance of workability and leverage on a flipping stick with workability the top priority in my opinion due to the need to pull fish out of cover quickly. The most popular lenghth which is probaly 7' for most applications is most likley chosen by most anglers for a little extra casting distance not an increase in leverage.

Tie a rope to the end of a 16' 2x4 and connect it to a 20# weight then grab the other end of the 2x4 and try to lift the weight. Now do this with a 3' baseball bat and it will be much easier.

Oh and the only reason a longer handle provides more leverage is because this moves the reel(hand area) closer to the rod tip. If you have two rods that have the reel and rod tip the same distance apart it does not matter if the handle is 12" or 3' the leverage will be the same.

[Skeet22]

I think another point that we are missing is that we are primarily working the fish with our rod and most of the lifting or pulling in is being done by the reel so when your thinking of common leverage we are forgetting that we are pulling in this weight(fish) with a winch sort of like a crane.You work the load with the boom and lift the load with the winch.

[RoLo]

This is easier to understand than we are making it. Simply put, the closer your hands are to the rod tip the more leverage you have on the fish. The closer the rod tip is to the fish the easier it is to work the fish out of cover hence the need for a balance of workability and leverage on a flipping stick with workability the top priority in my opinion due to the need to pull fish out of cover quickly. The most popular lenghth which is probaly 7' for most applications is most likley chosen by most anglers for a little extra casting distance not an increase in leverage.

Tie a rope to the end of a 16' 2x4 and connect it to a 20# weight then grab the other end of the 2x4 and try to lift the weight. Now do this with a 3' baseball bat and it will be much easier.

Oh and the only reason a longer handle provides more leverage is because this moves the reel(hand area) closer to the rod tip. If you have two rods that have the reel and rod tip the same distance apart it does not matter if the handle is 12" or 3' the leverage will be the same.

Well put.

I would add one thing though. The biggest advantage of a long handle

is that allows the angler to rest the butt section on the bottom of the forearm.

In heavy cover and with very large fish, this takes the lion's share of pressure off the wrist,

allowing the angler to lever small buildings to the boat

Roger

[Skeet22]

This is easier to understand than we are making it. Simply put the closer your hands are to the rod tip the more leverage you have on the fish. The closer the rod tip is to the fish the easier it is to work the fish out of cover hence the need for a balance of workability and leverage on a flipping stick with workability the top priority in my opinion due to the need to pull fish out of cover quickly. The most popular lenghth which is probaly 7' for most applications is most likley chosen by most anglers for a little extra casting distance not an increase in leverage.

Tie a rope to the end of a 16' 2x4 and connect it to a 20# weight then grab the other end of the 2x4 and try to lift the weight. Now do this with a 3' baseball bat and it will be much easier.

Oh and the only reason a longer handle provides more leverage is because this moves the reel(hand area) closer to the rod tip. If you have two rods that have the reel and rod tip the same distance apart it does not matter if the handle is 12" or 3' the leverage will be the same.

Well put.

I would add one thing though. The biggest advantage of a long handle

is that allows the angler to rest the butt section on the bottom of the forearm.

In heavy cover and with very large fish, this takes the lion's share of pressure off the wrist,

allowing the angler to lever small buildings to the boat

Roger

Agree 8-)

[Red]

Well first off thanks for all the info.  Second I went to Academy yesterday and they had a 7'6" American Rodsmiths Flippin Stick in there.  So I grabbed it up and checked it out.  My opinion is, I will stick to my 6'6" HVY Allstar for now!!  That thing is freakin huge!!  I wouldn't use it just because of the size, not to mention it is d**n near longer than my boat!.  I swear the butt of the Blank was an inch thick!  The rod I am using is built on an Allstar 785, which is a pretty stought(sp?) stick, and I mostly pitch and my accuracy seems fine to me.  I guess until I start having issues landing fish I won't worry about it.  However I appreciate all the great info and science lessons from y'all!!  Very informative!

Thanks  ;D

Cliff

[J Francho]

Glad you worked things out, Red.  I think if you get the opportunity to fish a longer rod, try it for an hour, you might be swayed.  I went years thinking 6' was plenty, and now I wouldn't be without my longer rods.

As a follow up, all my 7' rods are 9" from the back of the reel seat.  The flipping stick is 13", so we're talking a net gain of 2" to the tip.  It is longer, but not by much.  The 6-2 is 7", whereas most 6-6 are 9, IIRC.  Suppose it depends on brand too.