Rods - if you shorten them, how does power/action change?

[tradequities]

so if i break a few inches off my rod and i add a new tip, how does the power or action change?  i've heard that it goes up in power..  example - from a medium to a medium heavy.. ive also heard from someone else that it changes action.. if it was originally a moderate, it would be a moderate-fast or a fast depending on how much was cut off..  what do you guys think?

[flechero]

If a rod is shortened from the tip, the action is slowed and the power goes up (in direct proportion to how much you shorten it)

edited to add: the only way to speed the action up is to lengthen the blank from the butt. (which also adds power)

Trimming a blank from the butt will slow the action and weaken the power

[crw]

Agree, "If a rod is shortened from the tip, the action is slowed and the power goes up (in direct proportion to how much you shorten it) "

My broke tip bass rods become pond catfish rods.

[MarauderYak]

Just to clarify...  the rod will obviously be stiffer & will react more quickly when casting the same lures (if it will).  Whether it technically became "slower" or "faster" in action will depend on the exact taper, or curve, the rod had before.  If the rod was previously pretty soft down to the fourth guide & then started getting backbone, then you should've made it faster by losing a little off the tip.

In any case, the power does go up.

[rubba bubba]

Per the Rod Power/Action thread:

Action

The action of a rod is a rating, which describes the amount of curvature that occurs in the blank due to loading with weight. The faster the action, the further towards the tip the rod bends. The slower the action, the further towards the middle of the rod and so on.

------------------

So if the action had the rod bending more below the break, then wouldn't you speed up the action as you are in essence raising the location of the bend to be closer to the tip?

[flechero]

Whether it technically became "slower" or "faster" in action will depend on the exact taper, or curve, the rod had before.

Nope. A rod's action will only slow when shortened. (no matter if it's an inch or 2 feet) Since "speed" is measured as a % of overall length deflected, the only thing that can happen when you shorten the blank is the deflection "point of origin" is now further down the blank.

If the rod was previously pretty soft down to the fourth guide & then started getting backbone, then you should've made it faster by losing a little off the tip.

So if the action had the rod bending more below the break, then wouldn't you speed up the action as you are in essence raising the location of the bend to be closer to the tip?

Where a blank bends changes when you shorten the tip and if you shorten from the butt you've reduced the length so the "same" bend in a shorter blank is by definition, slower.

Power/backbone/whatever you want to call it has NOTHING to do with action/speed. They are completely independent of one another.

[MarauderYak]

Whether it technically became "slower" or "faster" in action will depend on the exact taper, or curve, the rod had before.

Nope. A rod's action will only slow when shortened. (no matter if it's an inch or 2 feet) Since "speed" is measured as a % of overall length deflected, the only thing that can happen when you shorten the blank is the deflection "point of origin" is now further down the blank.

If the rod was previously pretty soft down to the fourth guide & then started getting backbone, then you should've made it faster by losing a little off the tip.

So if the action had the rod bending more below the break, then wouldn't you speed up the action as you are in essence raising the location of the bend to be closer to the tip?

Where a blank bends changes when you shorten the tip and if you shorten from the butt you've reduced the length so the "same" bend in a shorter blank is by definition, slower.

Power/backbone/whatever you want to call it has NOTHING to do with action/speed. They are completely independent of one another.

I'll stick with what I said.  If the deflection point of a 72" rod is 18" from the tip, then 25.0% of the rod is bending.  If you lose 2" off the tip you now have a 70" rod that deflects 16" from the tip.  Now 22.9% of the rod bends.  You've turned a fast rod into an extra-fast rod.

[J Francho]

I'll stick with what I said. If the deflection point of a 72" rod is 18" from the tip, then 25.0% of the rod is bending. If you lose 2" off the tip you now have a 70" rod that deflects 16" from the tip. Now 22.9% of the rod bends. You've turned a fast rod into an extra-fast rod.

All you would have to do to see that you are wrong is grab the rod tip and note the deflection, and then grab it further down the blank, noting the deflection.  If you lop off the tip, the rod is going to be slower, especially on a fast rod.  It might not make a difference on a parabolic rod.

[flechero]

Nope.  It doesn't work that way.  When you shorten from the tip, you lose the most flexible portion of the blank and so what happens is the rod is forced to flex deeper into the blank.  

If you want to prove it to yourself, take ANY rod you own and put the grip in a jig and flex the rod by pulling the tip.  Now go back to the 2nd or 3rd guide and pull from that point (which would be the same as if it broke at that spot) and you will clearly see that the action is slowed.  It will work like that with any rod/blank.

Don't just take my word for it, go ask Tom Kirkman or any of the experts at RBO.

[flechero]

Perfect...  thanks cidgrad96 for a timely question on RBO...

http://rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,305250

Be sure to follow the link at the bottom of the 3rd post.  

[MarauderYak]

I'm more than willing to admit I'm not sure about my post.  I read the attachments.  The builder said it would make the action more moderate (slower).  I understand that concept, but it just doesn't seem like that would always be the case.

I wasn't speaking from experience, so I'll defer to a rod builder any day.

[J Francho]

I'm more than willing to admit I'm not sure about my post. I read the attachments. The builder said it would make the action more moderate (slower). I understand that concept, but it just doesn't seem like that would always be the case.

I wasn't speaking from experience, so I'll defer to a rod builder any day.

I'm speaking from experience - experience in breaking tips, LOL,

;D

[tradequities]

see i thought the EXACT same thing marauder did.. good thing i did not buy that broken tip rod from ebay!

[FishDontLikeMe1301600221]

after seeing the quality of rods flechero builds and his knowledge id go with what he says. :-X

[cidgrad96]

Perfect... thanks cidgrad96 for a timely question on RBO...

http://rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,305250

Be sure to follow the link at the bottom of the 3rd post.

I knew there was stuff floating out there but couldn't remember all the parts. That document Cliff Hall wrote up sums it up nicely!

[rubba bubba]

Power/backbone/whatever you want to call it has NOTHING to do with action/speed. They are completely independent of one another.

So then is the Power/Action sticky definition of "Action" wrong since it is based on the location of the bend?

Action

The action of a rod is a rating, which describes the amount of curvature that occurs in the blank due to loading with weight. The faster the action, the further towards the tip the rod bends. The slower the action, the further towards the middle of the rod and so on.

[flechero]

It's not wrong.  Power is the pressure required to deflect a rod by 1/3 it's length, action only refers to where it makes the bend.  It doesn't matter if you had to apply 2 ounces of pressure or 20 pounds of pressure to bend the rod, it wouldn't change the action...  

If power influenced action in any way, you wouldn't be able to have light, medium and heavy power rods in moderate, mod-fast, fast and X-fast actions.

hope that is more clear.

[rubba bubba]

It's not wrong. Power is the pressure required to deflect a rod by 1/3 it's length, action only refers to where it makes the bend. It doesn't matter if you had to apply 2 ounces of pressure or 20 pounds of pressure to bend the rod, it wouldn't change the action...

If power influenced action in any way, you wouldn't be able to have light, medium and heavy power rods in moderate, mod-fast, fast and X-fast actions.

hope that is more clear.

Ok, let me try my original question again.  Note it has nothing to do with power, only action (since the OP asked about what changes would occur to both).

If the flex point is higher up the rod, it's a faster action rod, per the definition.  So this means the rod bends closer to the tip, the faster the rod gets, which also means the further from the tip, the stiffer (less flexible) the rod blank itself becomes.

Now if you break off the tip, and for argument's sake, let's say the bend location was 8 inches from the tip.  If you break 2" off of the tip, the new bend location becomes 6 inches from the tip.  The net result is that you've moved the bend location higher which, by the definition in the sticky, means it is faster.

However what's being said is if you break the tip, the action actually gets slower, which is where my confusion resides.  The only way I see it actually getting slower is if you break off at the butt, which would end up in moving the flex point lower - same distance from the tip but now closer to the butt so the geometric result is to move the bend point lower.

Your thoughts?

[flechero]

It's confusing without a picture or a demonstration.

for argument's sake, let's say the bend location was 8 inches from the tip. If you break 2" off of the tip, the new bend location becomes 6 inches from the tip.

That's the confusing part...

If you break off X number of inches, the point at which the bend begins, moves much further down the rod than the number of inches broken off... this is because the further you break it the thicker and stronger the "new" tip is. (the bold text is the most misunderstood part)

Take one of your rods- set it in a rod holder and grab the tip with your fingers and pull down gently. Note the area that flexes most. Now move your fingers down say 6 inches (or a guide or 2) and pull gently (as if that was where you broke it) and note how much further down the blank it will flex. It will be easily noticeable. And for demonstration purposes, the further down you do this, the more pronounced you will see it's effects.

[rubba bubba]

If you break off X number of inches, the point at which the bend begins, moves much further down the rod than the number of inches broken off...

Ok, this is where my confusion lies as intuitively since the rest of the rod is pretty stiff, particularly for a fast action rod, that I would think the flex point would not be lower than when it started. Thanks for the explanation.

I do have an additional question - your example reference if you break it down by the 2nd or 3rd guide, what if you break it right around the bottom of the tip top?  Since that would be above the current flex point, would it still move the flex point down?  ie. if I try your test, instead of pulling down from the 2nd or 3rd guide, if I pull just below the tip top (where my experience has been in breaking rods - and not from fighting fish but from clumsy feet stepping on it)

[flechero]

rubba bubba,

If you just break off an inch or two, the same thing happens, only it changes the action less dramatically.  Depending on the rod, it's possible that you might not even "feel" a difference if only an inch was removed.

Even if it's not enough to notice or feel, it still happens...  just a little bit.  Make sense?

   

[MarauderYak]

The verbage used doesn't make it any easier in this case.  If you remove 3" from the tip of a rod & shake it, the new tip will react much "faster" than before.  

I think it would be nice if there was an industry standard numbering system for action that represented where the deflection point is.  a "9" would mean only 10% of the rod bent; a "7" would mean 30% bent; and a "1" would be parabolic.

[rubba bubba]

Make sense?

Yep, thanks.

[flechero]

The verbage used doesn't make it any easier in this case. If you remove 3" from the tip of a rod & shake it, the new tip will react much "faster" than before.

I think it would be nice if there was an industry standard numbering system for action that represented where the deflection point is. a "9" would mean only 10% of the rod bent; a "7" would mean 30% bent; and a "1" would be parabolic.

Are you my brother, under an alias?   ;D

Once you cut the rod, you've altered the power so the tip isn't faster, you just deflect it less when you shake it. By your analogy, all heavy rods would be fast and all light rods would be slow.

[MarauderYak]

I wasn't trying to make an analogy, I was just suggesting it might be more simple to understand action if it was just defined as a number that represented how much of the rod had "action".  Fast, Med-Fast, Slow, etc. aren't consistant from one series to the next, and I think the choice of using those terms leads to confusion.

Great, now I'm making confusing posts complaining about confusing terms.