line and knot strength

[.ghoti.]

Some of the recent threads had me thinking. And no, I didn't strain any delicate parts, thanks for asking.

I decided to do some of my own tests after seeing some interesting testing results. I taped some foam rubber around my clothesline cross piece, to act as a buffer, wrapped the lines around it and pulled down on the hook with my Rapala Lok-N-Weigh. Not really scientific, but consistent enough for comparisons. I used a 5/0 EWG superline hook and 10 and 12lb test lines since these are what I use most. The lines were Trilene XL, Sufix Elite, and Transition. Mono, Co-polymer and flouro. Those are what I had on hand. I used Palomar, Clinch and San Diego Jam knots. Those are the knots I use. I have a theory to test.

I won't get into all the numbers, but for mono and co-polymer lines the Palomar knot was the clear winner. I broke the line as often as the knot when testing these. When using the other two knots, the break occured at the knot every time; and at a lower break weight.

When testing the flouro line, in every test the knot failed. And all were in the same range of breaking strengths. Close enough to be an insignificant difference.

What was interesting was the range of breaking strengths I found. Very inconsistent results in my admittedly unscientific tests. I believe that I proved my theory. A simple theory: it's the knot tier, not the knot.

The most consistent knot, the Palomar.

The most inconsistent knot, the clinch knot.

What did i prove? That I need to work on my knots. I tried to be as even handed as I could be for this process. I tried to tie every knot the same, and as well as I could. I think I also proved that I tie a Jam knot better than I tie a clinch knot, and that I tie a Palomar knot better than I tie a Jam knot.

I think that's all any of the knot tests prove. That whomever tied them has as much, if not more, effect on the results as the knots themselves. Some food for thought.

Cheers,

GK

[Marty]

Good information, thanks.

[roadwarrior]

Very interesting. I have never had an issue with a Polamer Knot, but as you have noted, the KEY is tying the knot properly:

"If it ain't perfect, I ain't good enough."

[surfer]

For as much as you say that it isn't very scientific, you did a good job of controlling as many of the variable as possible.  That is scientific and thanks for the results.

[Guest muddy]

I read an article a long time ago , in the IN-Fisherman ( I am sorry I do not have the specific article to document this)  but the article claimed the polymar is a better knot because ther less loops involved keeps the integrity of the line better. Can sopmeone help me out here? They said the more loops used the easier the knot can cause line failure. The authour also made a point to use some saliva when tying a cinch or an improved cinch to lubricate the line.

[Maxximus Redneckus]

Id like to see a trilene knot test compared to the Polamar knot i have 3 loops when use anything over 10 pounds and 4 or 5 loops for small line and i really do think spit does what its suppose too lupricating and coolin down the line i do this like second nature since i been old enough to tie a GOOD knot

[Alpster]

A knot tying tool helps me be more consistent knot to knot and I think it always helps to lubricate any knot when tightening, including the palomar. JMHE

Testing any theory is time well spent and you came up with some valid conclusions. Good Job!

Ronnie

[Trent, B]

thanks for the information that really helped me

[senile1]

I read an article a long time ago , in the IN-Fisherman ( I am sorry I do not have the specific article to document this)  but the article claimed the polymar is a better knot because ther less loops involved keeps the integrity of the line better. Can sopmeone help me out here? They said the more loops used the easier the knot can cause line failure. The authour also made a point to use some saliva when tying a cinch or an improved cinch to lubricate the line.

I've read this and believe it as well.  The loops create more possibilities for the line to cut into itself.  

[flechero]

The lines were Trilene XL, Sufix Elite, and Transition.

I'm curious if you would mind share your results...  like the actual scale readings at the point the lines/knots broke, and which # test.

[Crestliner2008]

I attended a seminar a couple of years ago in which knot testing was performed. They challenged us to to tie our favorite knots and used a device for testing the breaking point of each knot tied. Up until that point I had never used the "Trilene" knot, which is basically a double looped cinch. It was the clear winner - even with someone like me, who had never before tied it. The Palomar was just as good though, and a lot quicker to tie. The plain cinch, with 3, 4 or 6 turns was the worse knot. So, if the amount of loops suppose to be the controlling factor, it surely didn't play out that way during this seminar. I don't remember the names of the other knots being tied, but none were as good as these two. Not sure how scientific this was, as only Trilene line (I think it was XL) was used? Hope this doesn't confuse things on this thread!

[.ghoti.]

The lines were Trilene XL, Sufix Elite, and Transition.

I'm curious if you would mind share your results... like the actual scale readings at the point the lines/knots broke, and which # test.

flechero, I have the numbers on a couple of sheets of notebook paper. I'll try to get them into a spreadsheet next week. I'll e-mail it to you if you like. There are some curious and inconsistent results that pretty much have to be the results of poor knot tying. I've always considered myself to be good with knots. Former Boy Scout, you know. The main thing I proved was that I'm not a good knot tyer.

Got a busy week going and a fishing trip this weekend, so it will be the middle of next week at the earliest.

Cheers,

GK

[Guest muddy]

I attended a seminar a couple of years ago in which knot testing was performed. They challenged us to to tie our favorite knots and used a device for testing the breaking point of each knot tied. Up until that point I had never used the "Trilene" knot, which is basically a double looped cinch. It was the clear winner - even with someone like me, who had never before tied it. The Palomar was just as good though, and a lot quicker to tie. The plain cinch, with 3, 4 or 6 turns was the worse knot. So, if the amount of loops suppose to be the controlling factor, it surely didn't play out that way during this seminar. I don't remember the names of the other knots being tied, but none were as good as these two. Not sure how scientific this was, as only Trilene line (I think it was XL) was used? Hope this doesn't confuse things on this thread!

Sure it did Crestliner. There is two loops in both the Triline and the Polymar as opposed to 6 in the cinch and 7 in the improved cinch, the knots with the least amount of loops were the two that proved better, so the amount of loops and knot strength are related, they are inversely proportional! You just said so your self!