Best Modern Low-Stretch Copolymer / Mono (Life After Defier Armilo)

[Hogs_n_Logs]

On 2/15/2025 at 1:26 PM, MN Fisher said:

I know that @FryDog62 did a test some years back that showed that most FC have more stretch than most monos. It's just that it takes more force to start them stretching. Also, mono rebounds where-as FC doesn't - once it stretches it's done.

Line that had the least stretch of all he tested?  YZH

Learning this a while ago left me to wonder about FC's viability as a method of shock absorption particularly as a leader line. I've always preferred FC to mono because while I do like some stretch in the system, every mono I've tried is just too stretchy, which in hindsight is like you mention simply because mono starts stretching almost immediately. Experimenting with braid to leader setups on heavier swimbait baitcasting setups as well as trying medium/big game saltwater fishing with spinning tackle for the first time I had some incidents that made me lose a lot of confidence in FC in terms of use as a shock leader, with the stiffer rods and heavier tackle being less forgiving on the line.

 

It'd be interesting to see some kind of test that has flouros stretch characteristics graphed. When you pull flouro lightly with your hands, it does feel like it has some stretch and rebound(springiness), were as say when you're trying to break off a snag you can feel it being pulled like taffy before it breaks(unlike mono which can leave you flying backwards from the sudden tension release haha). Is that initial springiness you feel when pulling FC by hand have shock absorption value, or is it nonetheless heavily compromising the line? I've heard FC explained as a type of glass rather than plastic, so I assume the structure of it might be damaged even with this minimal stretch. @FryDog62 do you have any thoughts on this from your testing?

 

I guess what I'm trying to get at is: if the invisibility/handling characteristics of flouro is preferred, is it perhaps better to discount shock absorption/stretch entirely and essentially treat it as zero-stretch when it comes to choosing line diameter/strength, rod choice and drag settings. 

 

 

[BassKat]

@Hogs_n_Logs your point is so big in evaluating FC, coupled with many FCs requiring upsizing to compensate for knot-strength issues thereby making it more visible or more able to be felt by lateral line. Not hating on FC because if I could afford Tatsu, it would be in my lineup.  

[rangerjockey]

6 minutes ago, BassKat said:

@Hogs_n_Logs your point is so big in evaluating FC, coupled with many FCs requiring upsizing to compensate for knot-strength issues thereby making it more visible or more able to be felt by lateral line. Not hating on FC because if I could afford Tatsu, it would be in my lineup.  

I've never experienced knot issues. I just use a palomar and wet it.

I still remember the 1 fish I broke off on a hook set about 4 years ago.

If someone told you that you have upsize the line to compensate for reduced knot strength they are 100% wrong.

 

[MediumMouthBass]

3 hours ago, rangerjockey said:

I've never experienced knot issues. I just use a palomar and wet it.

I still remember the 1 fish I broke off on a hook set about 4 years ago.

If someone told you that you have upsize the line to compensate for reduced knot strength they are 100% wrong.

Upsizing doesnt make sense to me either, knot weakness is only a issue when burning the line or incorrectly tying a Palomar/not wetting the line.

3 hours ago, BassKat said:

FCs requiring upsizing to compensate for knot-strength issues thereby making it more visible or more able to be felt by lateral line.

Theres many guys who use 17-20lb fluoro only for jigs mainly but also flipping, swimbaits, and even maybe Texas rigs. I dont think they are losing any extra fish because of the thicker line being more visible.

But how much does line visibility even matter anymore? Has anyone done a study or test if bass actually are more inclined to bite a bait tied to fluoro vs mono?

Now this would be interesting, because after catching trout on bright green mono i dont put much stock in that anymore. And they are 100x more paranoid and sensitive than bass.

And then all the guys here using Big Game that are still catching bass.

If anyones done the study or knows of one please link it!

[rangerjockey]

13 minutes ago, MediumMouthBass said:

Upsizing doesnt make sense to me either, knot weakness is only a issue when burning the line or incorrectly tying a Palomar/not wetting the line.

Theres many guys who use 17-20lb fluoro only for jigs mainly but also flipping, swimbaits, and even maybe Texas rigs. I dont think they are losing any extra fish because of the thicker line being more visible.

But how much does line visibility even matter anymore? Has anyone done a study or test if bass actually are more inclined to bite a bait tied to fluoro vs mono?

Now this would be interesting, because after catching trout on bright green mono i dont put much stock in that anymore. And they are 100x more paranoid and sensitive than bass.

And then all the guys here using Big Game that are still catching bass.

If anyones done the study or knows of one please link it!

I thought I misread it but is he saying the increased knot size spooks fish ?

I gotta tap out ..

[MediumMouthBass]

3 hours ago, rangerjockey said:

I thought I misread it but is he saying the increased knot size spooks fish ?

I gotta tap out ..

Im more so thinking he means if 10lb fluoro is breaking at the knot often he would upsize to 12-14lb line to counteract that. And the line being thicker would be more visible to bass making the whole point of fluoro (being invisible) pointless.

 

But fluoro thats good quality, Palomar tied correctly (but SDJ would give best results) with the line wet so it doesnt burn would negate any knot breaking concerns and still let you use thinner diameter/lower lb test fluoro and keep the invisibility if you believe in that.

[BassKat]

On a lot of lines, there are tests available by folks at TT, Saltstrong, etc showing tensile and knot-strength findings. Some FC lines, on average, tend to lag mono/copoly on knot strength and some report this as consideration with FC. For example, if a copoly you're considering has 89% knot strength and a FC you're considering has 76%, this could cause the need to bump up a line size on some FCs to compare apples. Not saying this is an issue with all FC. I had no problems with Tatsu and like Sniper as a "budget" option. FC can absolutely be money whipped into shape and it's the only factor that keeps me away from FC for bottom contact at a minimum. 

[Hogs_n_Logs]

1 minute ago, BassKat said:

 more able to be felt by lateral line.

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, MediumMouthBass said:

 

But how much does line visibility even matter anymore? Has anyone did a study or test if bass actually are more inclined to bite a bait tied to fluoro vs mono?

Now this would be interesting, because after catching trout on bright green mono i dont put much stock in that anymore. And they are 100x more paranoid and sensitive than bass.

And then all the guys here using Big Game that are still catching bass.

If anyones done the study or knows of one please link it!

 

Instead of visibility, like BassKat mentioned the lines hydrodynamic drag in relation to the fishes lateral line senses, IMO is THE most overlooked factor in lure fishing particularly with species like trout. I think its the primary factor in why casting upstream/upwind/up current catches more fish rather than the way fish are facing to feed etc, and why trout fisherman swear by light lines even when targeting huge steelhead and browns. I briefly spoke with a shimano pro staffer that specializes in Japanese sea bass fishing(very similar tendencies to steelhead) and he said the no1 factor that separates good and bad fisherman particularly in rivers or heavy current is their ability to minimize line drag through the water while still being able to be in the strike zone and impart action on the lure. Or more specifically, minimizing the angled vertical length of line in the water that is cutting through the water column in a horizontal direction.

 

Bass seem to be less sensitive to this than some other predator species, but it is still a factor that if you start to pay attention to it will make a ton of things make sense. For instance, with crankbaits, you notice when you get the retrieve "just right" on that particular lure the reeling resistance is minimal but still good wobble, its because you found the right combination of rod tip angle and retrieve speed were the vertical length of line in the water has minimal horizontal drag.  Non-hardbaits this is less of a factor, but consider why slack lining a senko is the most begginer friendly fish catching method, were as some people can't get bit on a jig were as others can fill the livewell everytime with them. 

 

In relation to how this factors with mono vs flouro and line thickness:  depending on the lures weight and resistance, less stretch potentially makes minimizing vertical line drag easier due to more direct input to the lure. Flouro = minimal stretch until reaching its breaking point; Mono = immediate and consistent stretch all the way to its breaking point.  Diameter of line most important factor in determining a lines breaking point regardless of brand/model. Thicker line less stretch given a certain resistance, but larger surface area = more potential drag. 

 

 

As for knots, using any good knot that has a doubled connection through the eye eliminates most problems with flouro knot strength. 

[FryDog62]

4 hours ago, Hogs_n_Logs said:

I've heard FC explained as a type of glass rather than plastic, so I assume the structure of it might be damaged even with this minimal stretch. @FryDog62 do you have any thoughts on this from your testing?

I think there’s some truth to the glass analogy. Fluorocarbon can deform and fracture internally similar to glass and weaken. It’s more abrasion resistant than braid and most monos, but fragile in other ways.
 

To wit - There has been a “nifty” way of getting nasty backlashes out of a baitcasting reel floating around on the interwebs for years. You basically crank the drag all the way down, compress your thumb against the line, crank it a few times, back up and repeat as many times as needed until the backlash is gone. While that can work great with braid, I would never do it with fluorocarbon as you get micro-fractures throughout the line. Sure the knot is out and you can cast again, but I have seen a few guys do this and get heartbreaking break-offs later on. 
 

Fluorocarbon is both durable and fragile… 

[BassKat]

As it relates, when I switched to the now-unavailable Defier Armilo, it enabled me to fish 11lb test that, because of its unreal abrasion resistance, I treated like 15. At just .0108", my catch rate skyrocketed. Importantly, I fish mostly Mississippi river deltas that stay muddy, heavily stained, or experience big plankton blooms that would seemingly suggest a larger line diameter could be easily tolerated, yet the ultra-thin Armilo made a huge impact for me in so many ways. Diameter is a big deal in my book. I rarely exceed .012" and rely on braid for punching and frogging (except open water) because of this. 

[BassKat]

As an example. On TT's reviews,  Armilo lasted 7.7 abrasion revolutions vs Ultragreen's 11.7, so I have UG on the way for testing. Ultragreen advertises their 10lb test as having a diameter of .012. However, TT's test showed the line actually had a 15lb tensile strength with a diameter of .01397, meaning diameter was underreported by 16.4%, and strength was underreported by 50%. Assuming there's some measure of uniformity in the variations between test strengths/diameters, I have ordered 8lb Ultragreen, which I hope to have a tensile strength of 12lbs, diameter of .0116", and knot-strength around 8.64lbs. To compare apples, I have to order 8lb UG to get what I hope is 12lb. If their 8lb doesn't perform as 12lb with excellent abrasion resistance, my search to replace Armilo will continue. YZH 10lb inbounds as well to treat as 12lb due to similar analysis.

 

 

[little giant]

Line Laboratory  on YT.

His testing is impeccable!

[BassKat]

@little giant Thanks for the tip!  Will check them out. 

[little giant]

His website is even better cause you can choose what line you want.

[WRB]

Been using Maxima Ultra Green since it came out about the 1980’s. UG is excellent copolymer line with 1 down side is high memory in cold weather. 5 lb UG has been my go to finesse line 45 years now! 5 lb was hard to find for awhile now available again.
Changed to 10 & 12 lb Big Game for my crank bait fishing around 1990 for better low temp performance and price to change line often.

Sunline Armilo was ideal line using 11 lb for bait casting crank baits and 25lb for all my swim baits wish they didn’t take it off the market. Dieter Shooter Nylon can still be found and very good line.

Tom

[BassKat]

Thanks, Tom!  I don't fish a lot until the temps get into the 50s. UG's strength-per-diameter and abrasion-resistance remind me of Armilo's. I must find a new fairly affordable line that allows me to fish recklessly, often throwing weedless lures like frogs and spinnerbaits into places such as across multiple floating logs in a log jam where I can't even go in for a big fish. With Armilo, I became adept at reeling the fish quickly "to the sky" to skip bass over logs, etc. Obviously, I hook a lot of fish and lose a lot of fish. I no more want to stop doing this than stop fishing topwater.

[WRB]

What separates one line from another factors into line choices.

I look for casting performance on the reels being used. For example line with high memory like FC tends to spring off the spool. Line with lower memory tends to be poor abrasion and impact strength along with weak knot strength. Diameter is important I prefer smaller diameter line per lb test with all the good properties. Very difficult to find and Armilo combined all the performance properties and hope another mono/ copolymer line comes around.

Tom

[BassKat]

I agree. Small diameter-per-strength lines with remarkable abrasion resistance like Armilo are incredibly rare. I believe the reason manufacturers intentionally understate strength is because they need a thicker line to deliver the abrasion resistance they want for the particular pound test. If Ultragreen's 8lb displays similar variances to those uncovered in the TT's examination of the 10lb, the 8lb should actually be an incredibly thin and abrasion-resistant 12lb line. What's more, at such as small diameter, the stiffness of the line starts to matter a lot less to me. Some of those who've noted UG is a bit stiff may have done so thinking they were testing a 12lb line that was likely an 18!  As we know, that stiffness delivers sensitivity and abrasion resistance. I must seek the best of both worlds because I won't tolerate too much coiling or stiffness due to losing distance and especially accuracy. Armilo was having it all! 

 

[Dwight Hottle]

@BassKat I used Maxima UG as leader material to braid for many years after a steelhead guide on the Niagara river recommended it to me. As you have discovered it is much stronger than it is rated & has excellent abrasion strength. The only downfall is it can be stiff & coiled. Like Tom I have switched over to Big Game.

[Catt]

@BassKat & @WRB

I disagree with the thinner line theory on one point. I perfer the additional thickness because that gives me more material to lose to abrasion. I've seen to many times were Big Game had lost 50% of it's diameter & still landed the fish. 

 

Most anglers never consider shock absorption which is the lines ability to "stretch" on hookset or when a big fish surges, & then quickly return to its normal diameter. 

 

7 hours ago, BassKat said:

I must find a new fairly affordable line that allows me to fish recklessly

 

My thought process is stick em first, then figure out how to land them.

 

I respool often because I have no way of determining if there's damage farther up my line. 

[BassKat]

If the UG is too stiff, I may try Big Game again. I know it's a fine line because I used it exclusively for years, but switched from Big Game to Sensation and never went back. I currently use Sensation along with Sufix Advance, which I have "in testing" with pretty decent results. Neither are comparable to Armilo, but nothing has seemed to be.

 

I appreciate the thinking that more material yields better abrasion resistance, especially in certain situations. It's just that Armilo changed my perception and thinking about everything. My catch rate skyrocketed with those smaller diameters, and like I said, that was in dingy water. I lived in Montana three years and have a fly fishing background, so I was predisposed to assign my spike in catches with Armilo to its incredibly small diameters. It was the line I'd been looking for all my life. Ultimately, there may not be a close enough substitute for me. 

@WRB Tom, how would you compare Ultragreen's stiffness/coiliness to Armilo's?  Armilo walked the fine line perfectly, but given the you use UG 5lb for finesse, I'm hoping it's not too much stiffer. Again, I've ordered the 8lb hoping to treat as 12, so I'm not getting a thick UG.