Baitcasting topics of misunderstanding: Casting

[Donald Tyson]

Good morning, I'm new to this world of bait casting. I have finally had some very good outings along with the expected disasters and snarls of innexperience. There are some gray areas that I would like answers to at this point which I think would help me along my journey a little faster. I am using medium sized big casting reel's, specifically Lew's, KastKing and Abu. Two of them have 40 pound ProMix braid on them and the other two have 8 pound Siege on one and 12 pound Siege on the other. I have them adjusted pretty well but it seems like they don't dependably cast less than 1/2 (total) oz. Is this about the norm? I had hope they would cast as little as 1/4 ounce. But they don't. Would they cast less weight if lighter line were installed? If so how light. I plan to move into BFS reels by next year but for now this is what I have and anything lighter gets tossed with some well loved and worked over spincast reels. 

[Glenn]

 

[softwateronly]

The short answer is I can cast lighter than 1/2oz on all my setups designed to do that.  I'm not the right person to diagnose your specific issues, there are far more knowledgeable people here that will probably do that.  My 150 sized reels are reliable from 3/8-1.5oz on the right rod, my 70/100 sized reels 1/4-1.25oz on the right rod, and bfs is coming in around 2.5-20g on the right rod.  Unfortunately, your problem might be a little of all 3; rod, reel, line.  But first, I would want to know if your rod is loading properly under 1/2oz as the first step.

 

scott

[Bigbox99]

I match my line size to my rods and my rods and reels to my baits.  For 1/4 total weight I would want a lighter powered M or a ML from brands that run a little stiffer like a Shimano ML.  The 1/4 oz caster of my cheap reel collection is a Lews Hank Parker 610M and a Piscifun Carbon XCS spooled with 8 pound Big Game.  The lighter powered medium rod and 10 gram spool really does a good job as a spinning reel replacent for a cheap combo.  

[casts_by_fly]

first, watch the video above.

 

Second, any baitcaster should reliably through 3/8 oz and most will throw a true 1/4 oz (not just a 1/4 oz weight plus plastic or a 1/4 oz wire bait).  Loading your rod is one part of it.  Adjusting the reel is the other.  What rods do you have them on?

 

You don't say which reels you have fo whats on what.  Each reel has differences in braking style to consider.  That said, 12 lb siege on most any lews or Abu should be fine for casting a 1/4 oz weight.  The 40 lb braid should also do it.

 

There are two styles for adjusting a baitcaster- using a lot of brakes and low spool tension and using less brakes and adjusting spool tension for a slow drop.  High braking is good for hard launching style casts and taming the initial 'flick' of the tip.  Low braking with spool tension plays better with a more relaxed casting style.  The latter requires a little more rod loading based on the weight of the lure, the former relies on a quicker casting stroke and better timing.  

[Choporoz]

As the two preceding posters mentioned, it is impossible to answer until you provide details about the rods that you are using.  That could be 100% of the issue.   

[Donald Tyson]

25 minutes ago, softwateronly said:

The short answer is I can cast lighter than 1/2oz on all my setups designed to do that.  I'm not the right person to diagnose your specific issues, there are far more knowledgeable people here that will probably do that.  My 150 sized reels are reliable from 3/8-1.5oz on the right rod, my 70/100 sized reels 1/4-1.25oz on the right rod, and bfs is coming in around 2.5-20g on the right rod.  Unfortunately, your problem might be a little of all 3; rod, reel, line.  But first, I would want to know if your rod is loading properly under 1/2oz as the first step.

 

scott

When you say Loading properly you mean flexing to assist the cast instead of just strait poling? It does seem that my lighter sized and power rods provide a better result and the newer heavier rods feel as though they are not fully engaging when casting.  

26 minutes ago, Bigbox99 said:

I match my line size to my rods and my rods and reels to my baits.  For 1/4 total weight I would want a lighter powered M or a ML from brands that run a little stiffer like a Shimano ML.  The 1/4 oz caster of my cheap reel collection is a Lews Hank Parker 610M and a Piscifun Carbon XCS spooled with 8 pound Big Game.  The lighter powered medium rod and 10 gram spool really does a good job as a spinning reel replacent for a cheap combo.  

My favorite bait is a 3/16 or 1/4 oz Jighead with a Kieteck 4oz shiner. It seems that the two rods with 40lb ProMix cant do it but the reel with the 8lb Seige on it can chuck it fine. 

[softwateronly]

7 minutes ago, Donald Tyson said:

When you say Loading properly you mean flexing to assist the cast instead of just strait poling? It does seem that my lighter sized and power rods provide a better result and the newer heavier rods feel as though they are not fully engaging when casting.  

Yes.  All rod companies and even lines within companies have different actions even if the labels are similar.  A rod that doesn't load, doesn't cast or at least not well.  Take the time to take your best casting 1/2oz rod, put your other reels on it with the same bait, and you will get a sense of where the reel and line fall into the equation.

 

scott

[Donald Tyson]

28 minutes ago, casts_by_fly said:

first, watch the video above.

 

Second, any baitcaster should reliably through 3/8 oz and most will throw a true 1/4 oz (not just a 1/4 oz weight plus plastic or a 1/4 oz wire bait).  Loading your rod is one part of it.  Adjusting the reel is the other.  What rods do you have them on?

 

You don't say which reels you have fo whats on what.  Each reel has differences in braking style to consider.  That said, 12 lb siege on most any lews or Abu should be fine for casting a 1/4 oz weight.  The 40 lb braid should also do it.

 

There are two styles for adjusting a baitcaster- using a lot of brakes and low spool tension and using less brakes and adjusting spool tension for a slow drop.  High braking is good for hard launching style casts and taming the initial 'flick' of the tip.  Low braking with spool tension plays better with a more relaxed casting style.  The latter requires a little more rod loading based on the weight of the lure, the former relies on a quicker casting stroke and better timing.  

Okay, I'll fiddle with that. Two of my reels are Royal Legend II's. One with 12lb Seige and the other with 40lb Promix. The Abu is the entry level Black Max wearing 8lb. and the last is an almost Identical department store quality Lew's holding 40lb Promix. 

I noticed the too much braking causes the line to careen off to the left on lob casts. Too much tension and the bait jumps upon casting...not sure what that is. 

For all of these Once I add a 3/8 oz weight or more and a large bait they cast great. Problem is, I've been fishing NJ and Pa for 5 years and have never caught a fish on a bait larger than 1/4. Never on a Crawler on a football, never on a Ned. Clearly doing something wrong there but the post is the smaller the bait the more my success with hookups increases. So it follow that I wan to be able to cast 1/4 or so and down. Gosh I see guys casting jigs and baits the size of trucks and yet I never see a hookup. 

[casts_by_fly]

17 minutes ago, Donald Tyson said:

When you say Loading properly you mean flexing to assist the cast instead of just strait poling? It does seem that my lighter sized and power rods provide a better result and the newer heavier rods feel as though they are not fully engaging when casting.  

 

Correct.  Especially as a new caster it helps to feel the rod load.  A moderate fast action will be easier to feel than an extra fast.  A setup where you're using at least the middle of the rated weight casting range will be better than if you're on the bottom end.

 

if the heavier rods aren't bending when you cast then they are too heavy (stiff) for the things you're trying to throw.

 

What weight ranges are on the rods you're using with 1/4 oz?  

[Donald Tyson]

12 minutes ago, softwateronly said:

Yes.  All rod companies and even lines within companies have different actions even if the labels are similar.  A rod that doesn't load, doesn't cast or at least not well.  Take the time to take your best casting 1/2oz rod, put your other reels on it with the same bait, and you will get a sense of where the reel and line fall into the equation.

 

scott

That makes sense and will do that. Gotta get to the bottom of this. 

1 minute ago, casts_by_fly said:

 

Correct.  Especially as a new caster it helps to feel the rod load.  A moderate fast action will be easier to feel than an extra fast.  A setup where you're using at least the middle of the rated weight casting range will be better than if you're on the bottom end.

 

if the heavier rods aren't bending when you cast then they are too heavy (stiff) for the things you're trying to throw.

 

What weight ranges are on the rods you're using with 1/4 oz?  

I'll have to look at that later in the day and sort of be scientific about it. I get back on this later. 

[casts_by_fly]

1 minute ago, Donald Tyson said:

 

For all of these Once I add a 3/8 oz weight or more and a large bait they cast great. 

 

I think you're found the issue.  You're not properly loading the rod with enough weight.  A 1/4 oz is on the light end for a baitcaster.  That puts you firmly into the 'medium' rated power territory.  12 lb siege is right for that as it 40 lb braid.  I think the 8 lb mono is a bit light, though it can still work depending on the diameter.  

[Bigbox99]

The Royal Legend II has a heavier spool.  I have that reel in both graphite (plastic) and aluminum.  My Aluminum frame one actually came with 3 spools.  Of the 3 the shallow spool is the only one I would consider worthy of 1/4 oz baits and its still quite heavy.  Heavy spools will negatively impact your ability to cast lighter weight baits.  I'd recommend an MGL reel or the 24 Tatula 100.  Also loosen your spool tension to just eliminate side to side play on your reels.  I've owned or currently own the reels you are referencing and you don't need to use the spool smasher once you have figured out how to use a baitcast reel.  

I'll also add that if you want to turn on of your reels into a finesse caster, you can get shallow BFS spools for the gen 3 and 4 Black Max for cheap.  I have also done this with my gen 3.

[Donald Tyson]

1 hour ago, casts_by_fly said:

 

I think you're found the issue.  You're not properly loading the rod with enough weight.  A 1/4 oz is on the light end for a baitcaster.  That puts you firmly into the 'medium' rated power territory.  12 lb siege is right for that as it 40 lb braid.  I think the 8 lb mono is a bit light, though it can still work depending on the diameter.  

Bingo!!! it was the rod to a large degree. I have four rods online. Two work okay and two suck with anything less than 1/2 oz. 

To experiment with your suspicions I took two old style, dept store quality rods, one medium and the other Light Action. I put the Royal Legend II and the Lew's Xfinity Speed spool onto these rods and tried them out in my swimming pool. They both were very different rigs than they were with the newer and slightly heavier rods

Summary:

The Royal Legend II, with 40lb ProMix Braid, on the Classic pistol grip Daiwa had a 1/4oz jighead wearing a 4" zoom paddle tail. Casting was effortless, easy starting and accurate. Over time I'll try a 3/16 jighead with a 3 1/2" Kieteck Minnow as these are my normal baits.

The Lew's on the other hand, with its 40lb ProMix, mounted on a cheap Shakey Alpha 6' Medium Rod. It tossed a 1/8oz conehead sinker with a bead, heavy hook, and 4 inch Kieteck shiner. It was not quite as authoritative as the other rig but it was much improved over the 6'10" MH rod it came off of. 

Below are a few pics of the old department store that proved your point and saved the day for my future purchases. 

Thanks for coming ups bat on this subject.

8 minutes ago, Bigbox99 said:

The Royal Legend II has a heavier spool.  I have that reel in both graphite (plastic) and aluminum.  My Aluminum frame one actually came with 3 spools.  Of the 3 the shallow spool is the only one I would consider worthy of 1/4 oz baits and its still quite heavy.  Heavy spools will negatively impact your ability to cast lighter weight baits.  I'd recommend an MGL reel or the 24 Tatula 100.  Also loosen your spool tension to just eliminate side to side play on your reels.  I've owned or currently own the reels you are referencing and you don't need to use the spool smasher once you have figured out how to use a baitcast reel.  

I'll also add that if you want to turn on of your reels into a finesse caster, you can get shallow BFS spools for the gen 3 and 4 Black Max for cheap.  I have also done this with my gen 3.

I'm quite impressed with the Royal Legend II. What do you mean by gen 3. The Abu Black Max is okay, a bit less authoritative, but okay. I plan to get the Kestrel by next year. 

[Donald Tyson]

Part of my issues are that all of my baits and lures were sized for my considerable collection of Spincasters, old and new. Then only this summer I began using Baitcasting rigs and my sizes of lures are out-of-whack to these new reels. I should have bought BFS reels at the beginning and I wouldn't have these issues.

[Bigbox99]

6 minutes ago, Donald Tyson said:

Bingo!!! it was the rod to a large degree. I have four rods online. Two work okay and two suck with anything less than 1/2 oz. 

To experiment with your suspicions I took two old style, dept store quality rods, one medium and the other Light Action. I put the Royal Legend II and the Lew's Xfinity Speed spool onto these rods and tried them out in my swimming pool. They both were very different rigs than they were with the newer and slightly heavier rods

Summary:

The Royal Legend II, with 40lb ProMix Braid, on the Classic pistol grip Daiwa had a 1/4oz jighead wearing a 4" zoom paddle tail. Casting was effortless, easy starting and accurate. Over time I'll try a 3/16 jighead with a 3 1/2" Kieteck Minnow as these are my normal baits.

The Lew's on the other hand, with its 40lb ProMix, mounted on a cheap Shakey Alpha 6' Medium Rod. It tossed a 1/8oz conehead sinker with a bead, heavy hook, and 4 inch Kieteck shiner. It was not quite as authoritative as the other rig but it was much improved over the 6'10" MH rod it came off of. 

Below are a few pics of the old department store that proved your point and saved the day for my future purchases. 

Thanks for coming ups bat on this subject.

I'm quite impressed with the Royal Legend II. What do you mean by gen 3. The Abu Black Max is okay, a bit less authoritative, but okay. I plan to get the Kestrel by next year. 

There are different generations of black max.  We are on gen 4.  This is a gen 3 which I have.  In mine I have a finesse spool that let's me cast UL baits 

[casts_by_fly]

16 minutes ago, Donald Tyson said:

Part of my issues are that all of my baits and lures were sized for my considerable collection of Spincasters, old and new. Then only this summer I began using Baitcasting rigs and my sizes of lures are out-of-whack to these new reels. I should have bought BFS reels at the beginning and I wouldn't have these issues.

 

Maybe so, maybe not.  BFS isn't a direct replacement for a spinning setup and some lures are just better thrown on certain types of rods.  Given what you're saying you fish most, I'd say that a spinning rod is the better choice for a lot of it and certainly can handle all of it.  That's not to say that you can't throw lighter stuff on baitcasters, but that soemtimes its just easier not to.  Case in point- monday I carried a spinning rod, a ML baitcaster with a BFS reel, and 3 other baitcasters of varying powers.  I was throwing a 1/16 oz head and 3" plastic on the spinning rod and 1/8 oz head and 3" plastic on the BFS reel.  I could swap them around if I wanted.  Both worked fine.  But, its all about having a balanced setup for the things you're throwing.  Tonight I'm leaving the BFS setup at home in lieu of a second spinning rod of similar power.  No real good reason why or why not, just what I'm going to do.  I do prefer a baitcaster so I may regret it but who's to say.

 

 

[Bankc]

The rod has more to do with how light of a lure you can cast than the reel. 

 

That being said, spinning reels do cast light lures better.  Spincast reels are basically a modified form of spinning reels.  They also make BFS baitcasting reels specifically designed to cast lighter lures. 

 

To cast a lighter lure well on a regular baitcaster, assuming you have the proper rod, it requires a careful setup of your reel.  When casting lighter lures on a baitcaster, I will often have to set the reel so it backlashes, just a hair, on every cast.  And if the wind kicks up or changes direction, or something else goes wrong, I'll often get a nasty backlash.  It's just the nature of the beast.  Which is why I prefer spinning reels for lighter lures.  I don't have as much accuracy with spinning reels, so there's a tradeoff. 

[Catt]

IDK 😉

 

I can throw a Wacky Rigged Trick Worm with my Calcutta 100A mounted on a M/H Crucial. 

[Donald Tyson]

I guess I should have stated: 6 yrs ago I developed very painful arthritis in my right hand. After a successful surgery I lost some of the definition in my grip. it is indistinct. If I shake your hand it feels less accurate. I had to give up my beloved spinning reels of some 50+ years and rather immediately found old Zebco 33's, and other golden oldies were easy to use in my left hand. They lack the retrieval speed I was after. So, at 66, with no experience, I'm learning baitcasting. Its going well, thanks for the help....everyone.

[bulldog1935]

3/8 oz was long considered the low-end weight for a baitcaster from the turn of the last century up until just about a decade ago.  

When mini-Ambassadeurs came out in the '80s, 1/4 oz low end was a baitcaster coup.  

 

A few things you learn along the way, especially coming from inshore, where 1/4 oz vs. 1/8 oz can make all the difference between dragging up grass every cast and catching fish.  

 

Lighter line helps casting lighter lures to distance.  Also, centrifugal brakes are better at preventing start-up backlash with heavy weights, while (linear) mag brakes are better dialing-out mid-cast backlash casting lighter weights.  (you might hear something different from people who don't understand the physics)

 

You cast light weight by reducing loaded spool mass (inertia), low-inertia spool bearings can also help.    The next best thing to BFS is a linear mag reel, low-inertia spool bearings, and a deep spool fishing 20-lb braid.  You back your spool with the largest-diameter mono you can fit, 20 to 25 yds of 20- to 25-lb mono.  Tie a backing knot that will go through your line guide (improved allbright), and top with 100 yds braid.  This works for casting 1/8 oz and, in my case, hauling in slot redfish.  

 

[WRB]

The old saying rods cast lures reels hold line us as true today as it was decades ago.

Learning to a bait caster after years using spinning tackle and on top of that being right handed and casting left handed is a challenge.

My advice for what it’s worth is bite the bullet and get a 7’ Medium power moderate fast bait casting rod* for your lures under a 1/2 oz. Put the reel you can cast the best with and 12 mono. 
Set everything else aside for awhile until you master casting the 3/16 oz T-rigged soft plastic. With practice Set your goal to cast 30 yards/90 feet.

You can’t whip cast a bait casting reel like a spinning reel. Casting motion is all in the wrist, elbow down to your side, thumb and reel handle up to your ear downward swing keeping your thumb towards your side using the wrist to accelerate the rod.

The rod and lure weight starts the reel turning, thumb lightly on the spooled line to keep it coming off smoothly then stopping the lure just before it lands.

Adjusting the spool tension knob and braking as suggest already.

Tom

*Daiwa TTU701MRB, Tatula 7’ Medium Standard action rod or similar .

 

[Donald Tyson]

7 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

3/8 oz was long considered the low-end weight for a baitcaster from the turn of the last century up until just about a decade ago.  

When mini-Ambassadeurs came out in the '80s, 1/4 oz low end was a baitcaster coup.  

 

A few things you learn along the way, especially coming from inshore, where 1/4 oz vs. 1/8 oz can make all the difference between dragging up grass every cast and catching fish.  

 

Lighter line helps casting lighter lures to distance.  Also, centrifugal brakes are better at preventing start-up backlash with heavy weights, while (linear) mag brakes are better dialing-out mid-cast backlash casting lighter weights.  (you might hear something different from people who don't understand the physics)

 

You cast light weight by reducing loaded spool mass (inertia), low-inertia spool bearings can also help.    The next best thing to BFS is a linear mag reel, low-inertia spool bearings, and a deep spool fishing 20-lb braid.  You back your spool with the largest-diameter mono you can fit, 20 to 25 yds of 20- to 25-lb mono.  Tie a backing knot that will go through your line guide (improved allbright), and top with 100 yds braid.  This works for casting 1/8 oz and, in my case, hauling in slot redfish.  

 

Learned enough off of you when I learned Flyfishing how many years ago, thanks, so I'll be trying this soon. I don't know about the bearings though. I think I'll need new bearings. I can tie the Albright and Dbl Uni but I actually have have the best luck with 4 or 5 surgeons knots. I've read something recently that dry and undersized (read small) ceramic bearings are best. I'm new to all these choices and research comes first.  

[bulldog1935]

Don a pretty accurate reel tuning assessment by Jun Sonada is that getting the loaded spool mass down is a 20+% cast improvement.  The bearing upgrade is about 10+% - in simplest priorities, the spool is the place to begin.  

Also note above, when I said mono backing, that means nylon - fluoro is 40% denser than mono, and that much heavier in the same volume.  

 

Improved Allbright is a little different, but any knot without this low profile on that big mono probably won't pass your line guide. 

[Donald Tyson]

14 hours ago, WRB said:

3/16 oz T-rigged soft plastic. With practice Set your goal to cast 30 yards/90 feet.You can’t whip cast a bait casting reel like a spinning reel.

Tom

*Daiwa TTU701MRB, Tatula 7’ Medium Standard action rod or similar .

 

Hey Tom could you explain the T-rigged Soft plastic? Are you talking a Senko on a bare hook, wacky style?

15-25 yrs exceeds the requirement for anywhere I fish.

I found out the hard way, early on, that you can't whip bait casters. It's more like artistic lobbing.