Where do diminishing returns begin?

[CaughtMeABiggun]

I know it's been discussed across various chats but I would like to get a definitive discussion going. I am curious on what the opinion is on the price point that rods and reels begin to give diminishing returns? I would also like to know what rods and reels people have found across all price points that provide the most bang per buck. 

[Cgrinder]

Shimano rods seem to punch above their weight; the Expride and previous Adrena rods are very good value at their respective price points.

 

If you told me I had to have 30 rods, I'd have a lot of Exprides.

[bulldog1935]

JDM Zillion amd Alphas purchase is the next- level baitcaster - Steez function is the same with an ounce less weight because of magnesium frame (Alphas swaps spools with Steez CT, Zillion swaps spools w/ Steez 1000).  

Shimano Stradic is the exact same design as Stella, same line roller, same A/R roller bearing assembly, and all parts interchange.  The difference is ball bearing count and MOC fabrication costs.  

 

Please note, personal budget answers dodge the question, which is at what point are you not getting much more performance for the next price step.  

The real question is, "what should I consider entry level tackle based on what I get for price"

See the answers above.  

[Eric 26]

I feel the answer is wherever your budget lies. As an example for me at least I try to stay around or under $150.00 for rods or reels and I’m at the point in both my life and my current collection that I can be extremely patient. It also helps that I’m not the type that has to have the “latest/greatest” so I don’t mind having a few leftovers if you will. Case in point a handful of years ago I bought a Daiwa Tatula Type R for $99.00 brand new in the box that was supposedly found in the unsold stock 🤔 I didn’t care as it was brand new and a reel I wanted for quite awhile. Conversely I think my personal best bang for buck purchase has been my Shimano SLX MGL from Japan Lure Shop. As I just saw bulldog1935’s reply my next purchase;hopefully next month) will be a JDM Alphas 800 SVTW as I again personally feel that’s a reel to not miss out on at the current Japanese prices.

Edited July 20, 2024 by Eric 26
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[TOXIC]

I used to say $150 for each (rod/reel) but as time has gone on, prices have gone up.  It is also subject to your individual skill level.  What may be acceptable to me may not be for you.  

[Hulkster]

for rods, although they are 'high end' here in Canada at over $500, in the USA I think they are considered 'mid range' rods, but the G. Loomis IMX Pro rods are amazing. 

 

I have two models, the MBR 903C and the SJR 901S and they are super sensitive, crisp and are rocket launcher casters 

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

There’s no definitive, clear cut answer to your question. The answer changes when comparing across brands, currencies , generations etc 

[MN Fisher]

^ And it all revolves around your available budget. What's merely difficult for one person to afford, is out of the realm of possibility for someone else.

[T2DM]

Best value for me.

 

Rod: Expride series

Reels: JDM Bantam and Metanium

 

 

[casts_by_fly]

In the current market, the only clear cut ‘whoa’ item is the jdm zillion for $205. At that price point it is a no brainer if you like daiwa or just want a super high end reel. I don’t need any more reels but if I did I would have a hard time picking against it. 
 

past that, everything is a sliding scale.  I would say that a falcon Cara for $250 is going to be better than a lot of $300+ rods but then again the low rider for $125 is 85% of the rod for half the price. I’d go with Toxic and say that $150 buys a whole lot of rod and reel right now.  The $100-120 bucket rods are pretty incredible for that price point. 

[ABU is overpriced]

For reels its $210 where the Zillion sits, and the drop of improvements from the zillion is massive when going for higher $$$ reels. For rods, the Expride is the sweet spot when purchased from Japan.

[Mike L]

It’s all relative to each person, there’s no direct answer to your question. 
 

My price point is $250-$300 ish for rods or reels. There doesn’t seem to be a great disparity in the overall quality of most things in that range. 
However, I have 2 $100 rods that I use every outing. 

In my opinion, The point of diminishing returns is the point where your satisfaction level doesn’t increase for products that meet your needs. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike

[TNBankFishing]

10 hours ago, CaughtMeABiggun said:

I know it's been discussed across various chats but I would like to get a definitive discussion going. I am curious on what the opinion is on the price point that rods and reels begin to give diminishing returns? I would also like to know what rods and reels people have found across all price points that provide the most bang per buck. 

For reels over $100. A Lews LFS is a bullet proof aluminum frame external brake adjustment reel with brass gears. The Zillion is a close second but it doesn’t offer 2x the functionality at $200+. I own 3 Zillions and zero Lews reels so take that as it is. 
 

For rods I’d break it into two categories. For Do It All without a ton of technique specific models and the lineup that offers the one rod for everything. The Daiwa XT line at $100. Fantastic value, sensitivity, and style for little cash. Specific techniques I’d go Dobyns Fury. From a line with crankbait rods, punching rods, even a legit swim bait rod they cover all the bases. 
 

The reality is a stick with twine tied on will catch fish. I’ve fished value gear especially when I started and I don’t lie to myself for one second that I’m catching 2-5x the fish with rods with MSRPs of over $600 dollars. Doesn’t matter. 
 

Diminishing returns starts very low in the price range, but I enjoy fishing high end gear for many reasons. 

[Catt]

Personal preference 😉

 

My worm rod is a $99 Powell Inferno, it's as sensitive as my Kistler Helium. Best bang for the buck is hands down a Diawa Tatula at $150+.

 

Reels, for 30+ years I only used Shimano Calcuttas but as I've gotten older I had to go lighter. Lew's are lighter than most. I have a Team Lite & a Tournament Lite both are slightly over 5 oz. 

[garroyo130]

I wonder at what rod price point line starts to matter more?

 

Or y'all throwing big game on them Exprides?

[A-Jay]

5 hours ago, Mike L said:

It’s all relative to each person, there’s no direct answer to your question.

My price point is $250-$300 ish for rods or reels. There doesn’t seem to be a great disparity in the overall quality of most things in that range. 
However, I have 2 $100 rods that I use every outing. 
In my opinion, The point of diminishing returns is the point where your satisfaction level doesn’t increase for products that meet your needs. 

Mike

I am in this camp as well.

While I've dabbled in the gear that I would classify as top tier for me,

it's always very nice, it's not enough to keep me coming back for more.

In fact my most recent casting sticks I've purchased (7 of them)

came in at a whopping $85 bucks each.

And they are KIller !

I've got a couple of 'older' low end spinning sticks I LOVE and have babying for years.

Even to the point that when they were getting close to needing some hardware help,

I did that rather than replace them.

Finally, when you fish at night, you quickly realize that not being able to see your gear

but still catch fish because the tackle fishes effectively, is a real thing.

YMMV

A-Jay

 

[bulldog1935]

Regarding rods, where you're going find high-end rods more desirable is in MH and heavier action.  

At this point, the light weight of a high-end rod pays off in lure feel and fishing fatigue.  

 

In ML rods, many low-end and moderate-cost rods will do the job very well, because they all have a lightweight tip.  Baitfinesse fits in here, and I have a specific thought that you'll find wide-lure-weight-range rods more functional than traditional panfish-action rods. 

(cashed-in vendor bonus points, but I paid $45 for the rod just below)

Editing-in diminishing returns on that high-end MH+ rod  - what you want to pay for is in the blank.  Higher-grade components and finishing add to the rod asthetics, but these are the diminishing returns.  

 

This is personal preference, and is not a recommendation to everyone.  Everything I wrote above on this thread is a recommendation to everyone.  

[Bigbox99]

2 hours ago, TNBankFishing said:

For reels over $100. A Lews LFS is a bullet proof aluminum frame external brake adjustment reel with brass gears. The Zillion is a close second but it doesn’t offer 2x the functionality at $200+. I own 3 Zillions and zero Lews reels so take that as it is. 
 

For rods I’d break it into two categories. For Do It All without a ton of technique specific models and the lineup that offers the one rod for everything. The Daiwa XT line at $100. Fantastic value, sensitivity, and style for little cash. Specific techniques I’d go Dobyns Fury. From a line with crankbait rods, punching rods, even a legit swim bait rod they cover all the bases. 
 

The reality is a stick with twine tied on will catch fish. I’ve fished value gear especially when I started and I don’t lie to myself for one second that I’m catching 2-5x the fish with rods with MSRPs of over $600 dollars. Doesn’t matter. 
 

Diminishing returns starts very low in the price range, but I enjoy fishing high end gear for many reasons. 

The Zillion offers 2x the functionality for me.  It can skip and I really struggled with that with the LFS I had and all my other non Daiwas.  I fish a lot if docks and cover.  If a real can't skip that basically makes it it a speciality reel to me and not an all arounder.  For others this is a non issue.  It really depends on the user and their use case.

[Craig P]

IMO, the Dobyns Champion XP line of rods, while not cheap, are in a price point of their own.  I have not fished with an Expride or a G.Loomis GCX but I have felt them in hand and the Dobyns just feels better to me.

 

I also like the Zodias line of Shimano rods. For their price point, and that handle, it’s a bargain. 

[Dwight Hottle]

I grew up with it's better to buy quality because you get what you pay for. But you have to consider your own financial limits. Right know the Japan yen to the dollar disparity favors JDM purchases for Daiwa & Shimano reels. I prefer Daiwa spinning reels over Shimano favoring the Certates. Bait casting reels the JDM Scorpion (USDM curado) is a winner at the low/med price range. The Bantam & Metanium at the med/high price range. I  have always enjoyed St Croix  avids & the legend series & the original Loomis IMX series especially the MBR line. The IMX+ series in the G.Loomis line & the top end NRX+ are industry standards. I also have several Kistler rods favoring the KLX, Heliums & Z Bones. Top of the line for me are the Edge LMX , EFX Pro & Epitome lines. If you get on the email list for both Edge & Kistler rods there are substantial sales & discounts available. 

[Catt]

13 hours ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

There’s no definitive, clear cut answer to your question. The answer changes when comparing across brands, currencies , generations etc 

 

For rods it also changes from person to person.

 

Sensitivity starts in your hands & ends in your brain. 

 

Everyone's ability to "feel" the vibration in the rod is different. So is how everyone interprets what's being felt.

 

Back to personal preference 

 

I'm more concerned with components, line guides, reel seat, locking nut, of course actions & all that.

[CaughtMeABiggun]

I appreciate all of the replies. This topic is not for me. I have my own answer to this, but I do not know it all. Response from others will help those looking for this information in one place. I'm hoping to get some replies without budget in mind because in my experience there are always rods and reels that perform above their price point. Everyone knows what their budget is, but most of the time rod and reel suggestions are stuck into budget ranges. When I first started getting into fishing tackle I wanted to know what equipment performs above it price point. That information is spread out everywhere and not easy to find a definitive knowledge base to reference when purchasing new tackle. So 10 years and many rods and reels later I am starting to develop an understanding of this. If I would have had this knowledge back then I would not have drawers of reels and racks of rods. I could have taken that knowledge and made it work for me. Most of the time there is a little flexibility in a budget and if I know that spending an extra 25 bucks could make a big difference than I might want to spend 125 instead of 100. I might look for sales and try find some higher end equipment that I can get on a deal. If a company makes a $150 dollar rod that fishes like a $250 dollar rod that opens the doors to a lot of people. I have also noticed that you can go quite a ways up through some of the brand lineups where the price increase is only added bearing and aesthetics. From my experience $100 starts getting into higher level equipment. At the same time is is it worth the price increase for a Curado MGL 150 over Tatula 100?  I have both and I'm not sure. Maybe you take the bucks you save on the Tatula and put it towards a higher quality rod. At that rate what are you sacrificing by dropping down to the Fuego CT. I have one and other than the T-Wing system it is as smooth and feels as solid as my Tatula. Going with a Fuego will give even more options for a higher end rod. Maybe a company's 100 dollar reel is great and no need to get any of their higher priced options until you get to their 200 dollar reel. These are the things I hope can get discussed further in this topic.

[WRB]

Personal preferences and how the rod/reel combo feels to you.

Today’s reels and rods are lighter weight with good combination durability and performance.  
Personally the $250-$300 price point satisfies my needs.

It comes down to your needs eg; pigeon grade vs field grade shotguns both shoot the same ammo accurately.

Tom

[CaughtMeABiggun]

To share a little of what I have learned...

 

The Lews Laser HS rods fish triple their price point and the Lews Hank Parker rod fish double their price point. The Berkley Lightning Rod is really underrated as a moving baits rod. St. Croix Bass X Rods are great for their price but not well balanced. Dobyns Fury Rods are as good as the Bass X rods and are better balanced at the same price point. Dobyns rods in general have great balance and price to performance. KastKing Speed Demon rods may be the most overlooked best bang for buck rod in their price range. Shimano FX spinning reels are the best 20 dollar spinning reel ever made. The drag smoothness on these reels are insane for a 20 dollar reel.  A Lews Laser HS 6' ML/Shimano FX 2500 maybe the best finesse spinning combo for under 50 bucks. I have 250 dollar finesse setup that is marginally better.  The Sienna is the same reel as the FX for 10 bucks more an 1 extra bearing. Bass Pro baitcasting reels are the same as Lews. Kalex brand is part of Pure Fishing. Basically if you catch it right you can get a 15 dollar black max with 11 bearings.  There are many other observations that I have made but this where I am hoping this topic can go from here. 

[jigheadworm]

To me Zillion's are so good it is not necessary to look at much else in the reel category.