Legalities of putting a boat in public water.

[king fisher]

Gimruis is right.  The main point is each state has different laws.  Another point is many people in law enforcement and the whole court system for that matter, might not interpret the laws correctly. or correct interpretation, is such a grey area nobody really knows.  Also many of the laws especially ones dealing with whether a water is navigable or not are vague, and can be interpreted in many different ways.  A person could win in a lower court only to loose at the appellate level.  It is best to find out what your local law enforcement's opinion is first.  If they believe you are in the right than go for it.  A case wont go to court if charges are not brought.  If your local authorities say you are trespassing, and you believe you are not, then by all l means let them ticket you  and hope your research was correct and enjoy your day in court, but be prepared to go the long haul, and make sure you are able to afford the financial cost of your belief.  It make take years with appearances in both criminal and civil court, along with massive lawyer fees, before it's all over, and you could loose.

 

Alaska has the simplest law on this issue.  In the State constitution, it says all water belongs to the State, so therefore belongs to all residents of the state equally.  You can access a body of water completely surrounded by private land with a float plane, and as long as you stay below high water you are on public land.  Other states are more restrictive in public access rights, and the majority of states have laws that can very significantly in the interpretation.  Any state that mentions the word navigable in the laws, is open to a very broad interpretation.  Traditional colonial law usually defines navigable, as water you can float a canoe in, where other interpretations, are weather you can move cargo on the body of water, while others will argue only rivers and lakes listed as Navigable Federal waters applies.    This is the kind of wording in state laws that can make lawyers lots of money. As far as I'm concerned, if I'm floating in my boat or kayak, and traveling across the water, I'm navigating that water, but many a land owner will not see it the same way I do. 

 

These kind of cases do not make it to court often, and don't be surprised if you get a different interpretation of the law from every one you talk to including law enforcement, lawyers, and even district attorneys.  It all boils down to case law, and you never know, you may be the one with a case that sets a president for the next hundred years in your state.  You have to ask yourself if the bass are plentiful, and big enough to make it a worth while fight.  In my opinion a bass over 13 pounds would be worth a hefty fine, and possibly a few days in jail, one over 15 pounds I would be willing to spend my life savings for attorney's fees.  A bass over 17 pounds would be worth dodging a bullet or two, along with the before mentioned financial penalties, and one over 20 pounds would be worth getting shot, as long as I was still capable of getting a good picture of the bass, to show off at the hospital. 

   

[gim]

@king fisher I always wondered about the term "navigable" waters.  Someone could see that as using a canoe, some see it as a barge, or anything in between.  Super gray area indeed.

[flyfisher]

16 minutes ago, gimruis said:

@king fisher I always wondered about the term "navigable" waters.  Someone could see that as using a canoe, some see it as a barge, or anything in between.  Super gray area indeed.

nope not gray at all in Virginia.  The state labels waters that are deemed navigable and it was based on ability for commerce.  Some rivers have parts that are deemed navigable and other parts are not.

[gim]

3 minutes ago, flyfisher said:

The state labels waters that are deemed navigable and it was based on ability for commerce. 

 

So basically a barge has to get through then?

[king fisher]

16 minutes ago, flyfisher said:

nope not gray at all in Virginia.  The state labels waters that are deemed navigable and it was based on ability for commerce.  Some rivers have parts that are deemed navigable and other parts are not.

Then you go down the next rabbit whole.  Are waters not listed as navigable public or private?  Are lakes on the list?  If a lake has a public access but surrounded by private property, are they public waters?  What if they are on the navigable list?  What if they are not?   Some times the law is simple, and clear cut, and other times is isn't I wouldn't know how clear cut it is in Virginia, but I would be surprised if there is no grey area for either side to maneuver in.

[Bazoo]

The lake for me in question is clearly public for approximately 1/4 of it's shoreline.

[MN Fisher]

3 minutes ago, Bazoo said:

The lake for me in question is clearly public for approximately 1/4 of it's shoreline.

Still have to find out the local regs - could be that the 1/4 mile of shoreline to the middle of the lake is the only 'public' part of it, rest is private...ya, there are ownership rules like that, weird, but what can you do.

 

Minnesota is simple...if there's a public way to access the lake, then the entire water surface is public water.

[TnRiver46]

1 hour ago, gimruis said:

 

So basically a barge has to get through then?

Definition of navigable is quite vague and it’s federal . If it was historically used to transport goods….. or any of its tributaries…….

 

so a raindrop could be navigable 

[Tennessee Boy]

I’ve looked into this issue a few times out of curiosity.  My conclusion is it’s complicated.   In Tennessee and I think in most places your right to be in a stream depends on if the stream is “navigable”.  The land under a navigable stream is public land.  Who determines if a stream is navigable?   The courts.   The Corp of Engineers is responsible for navigable waterway in the US and they maintain a detailed list of exactly where many creek becomes a navigable stream,  however their list is only legally binding for their activities.  In Tennessee,  courts have found that the Corps’ list should be accorded substantial weight in determining if a stream is navigable.  Still anyone has the right to challenge in court whether a stream is or is not navigable.
 

The simple answer when it comes to grey areas, the person who can afford the best lawyers wins.  
 

I’ve fished two creeks in middle Tennessee where they officially become navigable according to the Corp of Engineers and I can say in these two cases their determination is extremely favorable to the boater.   You would not  be able to navigate these waters in a Kayak without getting out occasionally to avoid shallow water or a fallen tree.  

[Functional]

You could look at the county plat maps. That will show the property lines and i'll be willing to bet quite a lot (my company has an entire department dedicated to doing plats) those property lines do not go into the water and will stop 1-2 ft from or right against the water edge if there is public access to the lake. Even more so if the state or utility puts money into stocking or maintaining that lake/pond/water.

 

For me, right or wrong, thats where I start, if there is public space that allows me access to the water and there is nothing in all my searching or signage that says I cant fish it or access it then I'm going. Wont touch anyones property without permission but I wouldnt believe I was wrong in using public access to access water. Pond surrounded by farm land, hard no without permission. Bridge with side access to water that is funded by the state (my taxes) to stock I'd willingly go to court and press charges for harassment. If I lose then I'm taking it up with the state why my tax dollars are going to stock private waters that dont generate electricity or drinking water. I've also admitted I'm no expert in this permission thing, I dont often have to do any of this but the times I have I've had no issues. So take all that as you will. 

[fin]

2 hours ago, Functional said:

Bridge with side access to water that is funded by the state (my taxes) to stock I'd willingly go to court and press charges for harassment.

 

How would you find out if the state stocked it?

[flyfisher]

On 7/11/2024 at 2:26 PM, king fisher said:

Then you go down the next rabbit whole.  Are waters not listed as navigable public or private?  Are lakes on the list?  If a lake has a public access but surrounded by private property, are they public waters?  What if they are on the navigable list?  What if they are not?   Some times the law is simple, and clear cut, and other times is isn't I wouldn't know how clear cut it is in Virginia, but I would be surprised if there is no grey area for either side to maneuver in.

Lakes are private unless managed by the state, or county they reside in and labeled as public.  Lakes with public access points fall into this category.  You can also go to the GIS in pretty much every county here in VA and see exactly who owns what. I frequent a slower moving swampy creek that is surrounded by private land and have been hassled by peopl hunting the land that I cannot be there which I know is false.  I looked it up and it turns out that the majority of the water I fish is owned by the fed as protected wetlands and I would also surmise that the semi-permanent structures they put in place are not legal either.  The GIS is also a great tool to see how wide the right of way is for any bridge that crosses a river or creek as it is public property and can be used for a primitive access.

 

If they are not on the navigable list then it is listed as above.  Nobody owns the water itself so you are free to float but technically trespassing if you get out and touch the ground.  Most land owners are fine if they see you out wading in the creek itself but I always ask anyways if possible.  

Now to throw another wrinkle in it all, here in VA there are a few places where it is under the kings grant and they in fact do own the water itself as it travels in their property which is under ltitgation and has been for a long time.  

Bottom line for me is if you're questioning if it is public or proivate do your homework and find out what is the truth and ask permission or fish away.  I am not an ask for forgiveness not permission person in these cases.  To me it seems like people questioning the gray area kind of know the truth but want to find some loophole to use to fish an area.  There is a lot of water out there so just go fish that instead.

[Tennessee Boy]

Here’s an excellent article on this subject.

 

https://www.in-fisherman.com/editorial/understanding-riverine-rights-today/385605

[Bazoo]

22 hours ago, flyfisher said:

Lakes are private unless managed by the state, or county they reside in and labeled as public.  Lakes with public access points fall into this category.  You can also go to the GIS in pretty much every county here in VA and see exactly who owns what.

Bottom line for me is if you're questioning if it is public or proivate do your homework and find out what is the truth and ask permission or fish away.  I am not an ask for forgiveness not permission person in these cases.  To me it seems like people questioning the gray area kind of know the truth but want to find some loophole to use to fish an area.  There is a lot of water out there so just go fish that instead.

No question as to this being public. My question is, can I fish up the shore line of the sides are are privately owned once launching through the public access portion.

[flyfisher]

Check your regs but a public lake is just that public and as long as you are in the water you are good to go.  Most of the lakes I fish have houses all along the shore and I am legal in fishing wherever I want.

 

[Loomis13]

On 7/9/2024 at 11:48 AM, gimruis said:

 

Yes.  People don't own the water.  As long as the water has public access (as you described), you can get out there and fish the entire water.

 

I encountered this many times when trying to locate good duck hunting water.  Ponds that were completely surrounded by private land were not huntable unless I got permission.  If any portion of the pond had public ground edging it, I could access the pond there and hunt the whole pond, as long as I stayed in/on the water.

Just for perspective, this is not how South Dakota works. Private property line include water and you can’t fish inside someone’s property line. I assume OPs situation is not the same as SD. Just something worth noting that it can happen. 

[Bazoo]

I was fishing another lake when the game warden came around, and it happened to be the sergeant, so I asked him about it. He suggested that I find out who owns the other properties and ask their permission before putting a boat in. He did say that the water was public.

 

He said indirectly that yes it would be legal, but suggested to ask permission with the owners. He didn't say, but I'd guess he knows he'll be getting calls about it if I don't get permission first.

 

I'm not going to take this as the final word, but for now I am going to ponder on it and keep doing research.